Posted on 01/25/2005 2:58:28 PM PST by csbyrnes84
The only thing still working well is God and His Church, even if the institutional church lies in ruin. It's not a permanent condition. And for the present exile and punishment, God loves us all as long as we are under grace in this life. There is always the possibility of rejecting unholy 'reform'. There is the hope that one confesses only Catholic dogma, irreformable dogma, the truths of The Church, of God.
But, yet again, you are vehemently embracing a contradiction with yourself if you simultaneously reserve bile and bitterness, utter hatred and contempt for these gentle souls who only want the best for their young families but also defend the actions of the PC Popes with regard to the genuinely schismatic Greek, which their effort almost reaches the point of suggesting that your contempt is insane and that schism is irrelevant to Catholicism, or their brand of it, even to the point that some see the institutional church is now reluctant to confess the very existence of the eastern Catholic.
There is good reason for doubting the validity of priestly ordinations in the new rite. Here is Michael Davies in "The Order of Melchisadech" (1993) on the subject:
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The Rite of Ordination of a Priest follows the order of Mass up to the Collect, after which the candidates for ordination (ordinands) are called by name and presented to the Bishop by the Archdeacon, who declares that as far as human frailty may judge he considers them worthy of ordination.
The Bishop then "charges" the people to declare any possible objection to any of the ordinands, reminding them that:
"Not for nothing did the Fathers ordain that even the people should be consulted in the choice of those who are to minister at the altar. For sometimes what is unknown to the many of the life and conduct of a candidate may be known to the few, and a more ready obedience is given to a priest when assent has been given to his ordination."
There is no provision for the people to give a sign of formal consent to the ordination; this is manifested simply by silence.
In the new rite the reference to "the choice of those who are to minister at the altar" has been eliminated. It has been replaced by a statement that the candidates are to be ordained "for the office of presbyter". The people give a formal consent by saying: "Thanks be to God" or "give their consent according to local custom".
The Bishop then addresses the ordinands and his "charge" to them includes the following:
"For it is a priest's duty to offer sacrifice, to bless, to lead, to preach and to Baptise."
This admonition has been abolished.
The Litany of the Saints then follows. It has been left in the new rite in a drastically curtailed form, omitting such unecumenical petitions as the following:
"That Thou wouldst recall all who have wandered from the unity of the Church, and lead all unbelievers to the light of the Gospel."
After the Litany comes the silent imposition of hands by the Bishop and then by all the priests present. The imposition of the Bishop's hands constitutes the matter of the Sacrament.
Then a number of prayers follow, including a lengthy Preface which incorporates the form of the Sacrament:
"We pray Thee, Almighty Father, confer the dignity of the Priesthood on these Thy servants; renew in their hearts the spirit of holiness, that they may obtain the office of the second rank received from Thee, O God, and may, by the example of their lives, inculcate the pattern of holy living."
It is clear that neither the matter nor the form is in the least incompatible with Protestant teaching. As is made clear in Appendix I, this is a case where the signification of the rite must be deduced from other prayers and ceremonies surrounding the matter and form, what is referred to by theologians as determinatio ex adiunctis. (See Appendix I for the meaning of this term.)
The newly ordained priests are then vested with a stole and chasuble, in each case to the accompaniment of an extremely beautiful prayer. The vesting remains in the new rite but the prayers have been abolished. The Bishop then says another long prayer which includes the following:
"Theirs be the task to change with blessing undefiled, for the service of thy people, bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Thy Son."
This prayer has been abolished. The Veni Creator Spiritus is then intoned while the Bishop anoints the hands of the new priests. Dipping his right thumb into the oil of the Catechumens he anoints the opened hands of each one in the form of a cross by tracing two lines, one from the thumb of the right hand to the index finger of the left, the other from the thumb of the left hand to the corresponding finger of the right. He then anoints the palms all over. While anointing each priest he says:
"Be pleased, Lord, to consecrate and sanctify these hands by this anointing, and our blessing."
Then he makes the sign of the cross over the hands of each priest and continues:
"That whatsoever they bless may be blessed, and whatsoever they consecrate may be consecrated and sanctified in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ."
This prayer has been abolished and replaced by one which will be examined in the next section. The palms are still anointed, but no specific directions are given in the rubric which simply states that the Bishop "anoints with holy chrism the palms of each new priest who kneels before him". Pope Pius XII clearly set considerable significance upon this prayer, which he cites in Mediator Dei:
". . . the Sacrament of Order sets priests in a class apart from all other Christians who are not endowed with this supernatural power. They alone have entered this august ministry by a special Divine vocation, a ministry by which they are appointed to the sacred altar and made, as it were, Divine instruments to communicate the heavenly and supernatural life in the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ. Moreover, as We have said, they alone are marked by the indelible character that likens them to Christ the Priest; they alone have their hands consecrated so that 'whatsoever they may bless shall be blessed, and whatsoever they may hallow shall be hallowed and consecrated in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ' (para. 46)."
...The Bishop now closes the hands of each in succession, so that both palms meet, and one of the attendants binds them together with a white fillet; each priest then returns to his place. When this anointing and consecration of hands are finished, the Bishop cleanses his hands: and then delivers to each priest the chalice containing wine and water, with a paten and host upon it, which each takes between the fore and middle finger, so as to touch both the paten and the cup of the chalice, while the Bishop says to each:
"Receive the power to offer sacrifice to God, and to celebrate Mass, both for the living and the dead, in the name of the Lord".
This beautiful ceremony and the exceptionally important prayer have both been abolished. In their place, the paten with the altar-breads, and the chalice with the wine and water to be used in the Mass, are placed in the hands of each new priest by the Bishop accompanied by a brief exhortation which will be discussed in the next section.
The new priests then concelebrate Mass with the Bishop. At the end of Mass, before the Post Communion, each new priest kneels before the Bishop who lays both hands upon the head of each in turn and says:
"Receive the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained."
This ceremony and prayer have been abolished. The new priests then promise obedience to their bishop who "charges" them to bear in mind that offering Holy Mass is not free from risk (satis periculosa est) and that they should learn everything necessary from diligent priests before undertaking so fearful a responsibility. This admonition has been abolished.
Finally, before completing the Mass, he imparts a most moving blessing.
"The blessing of God Almighty, the Father the Son , and the Holy Ghost come down upon you, and make you blessed in the priestly Order, enabling you to offer propitiatory sacrifices for the sins of the people to Almighty God."
This blessing has been abolished.
As the previous section made clear, every prayer in the traditional rite which stated specifically the essential role of a priest as a man ordained to offer propitiatory sacrifice for the living and dead has been removed. In most cases these were the precise prayers removed by the Protestant Reformers, or if not precisely the same there are clear parallels. At this point some of the prayers introduced into the new Ordinal will be examined to assess the extent to which they make explicit the doctrine of the prayers which have been abolished. It must be remembered that this doctrine, as was made clear earlier, is not simply the doctrine of Trent but the doctrine of Vatican II.
"He [JPII] is a living prophet."
Some prophet. We're still waiting for his springtime. As far as I can see it's still dead winter in the Church. Maybe the springtime can be declared a reality simply because the Pope says so. Meanwhile SSPX flourishes.
By the way, in view of the recent Iraqi election, maybe the Pope's prophesies were a little off there as well. He seemed to take it as a personal affront that Saddam Hussein was being dislodged from power.
"they could use it over at the Angelus as a slogan or even emblazon it on Bishop Fellay's Coat of Arms in addition to 'Non Serviam'"
Not "Non Serviam", but "Non Be-a-jackassiam." The good Archbishop simply refused to take the word of Rome at face value and was looking for some guarantees. Rome didn't like this--it had counted on his gullibility and good will in order to stick it to him later. The Archbishop's traditional Catholic faith really ticked the Pontiff off--just the way Bush's determination did when he refused to buy into French and Vatican sympathies for Saddam.
"Actual Catholics are loyal to God and His Church and His pope unlike the schizzies and the excommunicati."
There you go again, confusing the Pope with God. Repeat after me: The-Pope-Is-Not-God, The-Pope-Is-Not-God, The-Pope-Is-Not-God--a thousand times. Got it? JPII is not the fourth person of the Blessed Quatrenity, or the Second Begotten Son. He makes mistakes--a zillion of them. If you don't think so--take another look at Assisi I and II and try to come up with an orthodox Catholic explanation for such shenanigans. Or take a look at some of the bishops and cardinals he's appointed--and the lousy ones he's defended.
LOL!
Then the dove flew back into the window...
Hold your breath, if you wish. Stamping your feet will help, too!
I saw that too.
Funny, but I distinctly remember it was you and Black Elk having the tantrums. Black Elk even stuck out his tongue and called Gerard P. a meanie--or was it a schizzie? At one point Gerard tried reasoning with him like an adult, but Black Elk responded by spitting and biting and excommunicating. Then he went home and sulked.
Roma locuta et locuta et locuta...Non semper finita.
Ubi Petrus, Ibi Ecclesia--aliquando.
I don't have to hold my breath or stamp my feet. It's happening as we speak. Churches are being sold off by the dozens at a time.
To sort of rile the enemy, you mean, in the face of a charge? If by that 'reformists' would seek to intimidate the Catholic faithful, it will only work with those who are unfaithful, and has. But that's not the end of it. This is a chapter, a phase. It's a winnowing. A those who are steadfast in confessing God and His Church are those who have not turned away from the name of, Jesus. Those of 'conciliarism' and 'reform' who think even the Evangelists somehow got it wrong are thinking not of God and His Church, but of themselves.
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