Posted on 06/15/2004 6:53:50 PM PDT by RnMomof7
Let me first state that I have no dog in this hunt. I don't know the first thing about Calvin or most other reformers. I only recently found the Bible as well as my roots. So all I am doing is offering my thoughts.
John says Messiah Yeshua is the Lamb who came to take away the "sin" of the world. Sin came into the world through Adam. Messiah Yeshua came for more than one purpose, but one was to correct the error of Adam as the "second Adam", removing the curse of death upon "all the world".
It is the removal of this singular sin that creates the "potential" for the entire world to be saved. This is what I believe John 3:16 is referring to.
Hypothetically, if Adam had not sinned and brought death into the world, he could have been our covering. For if his children then did sin, Adam would be a high priest able to be the covering for their sins. However, Adam did sin, and thus we were still in need of a high priest who could cover our sins. This was the work of the cross.
Still, there are no guarantees of eternal life solely because Yeshua died on the cross. If the whole world came down with a fatal disease and an antidote was available, one must choose to accept the antidote or it will do no good.
I think John 3:36 sums it all up well in that he that believes in Yeshua will have eternal life, but he that believes not shall not see life, but wrath. To "believe" should be understood as a faith-based obedience, such as that of Abraham. To "believe not" (apeitheo) means to be disobedient. So while John 3:16 shows that the potential for salvation is extended to all, it is also clear that not all will accept this and come to a faith-based obedience.
Blessings to you
Maybe you, a believer in what John Calvin taught, could boil it down to a few on point paragraphs instead of using about 40 paragraphs to explain a few lines of the bible?
And indeed, Martha ran to meet Jesus as soon as she heard He was coming. Mary ran to Him when Martha told her that He was there and calling for her (John 11:20-35)
The Lurkers might enjoy reading Rudyard Kipling’s poem on Luke 10:38-42, “The Sons of Martha”. With regard to the attitude of Mary, his “take” on the lesson of that passage is very close to mine. However, he suggests that Martha was cursed - which I do not see in the Scriptures at all:
It is their care in all the ages to take the buffet and cushion the shock.
It is their care that the gear engages; it is their care that the switches lock.
It is their care that the wheels run truly; it is their care to embark and entrain,
Tally, transport, and deliver duly the Sons of Mary by land and main.
They say to mountains ``Be ye removèd.'' They say to the lesser floods ``Be dry.''
Under their rods are the rocks reprovèd---they are not afraid of that which is high.
Then do the hill-tops shake to the summit---then is the bed of the deep laid bare,
That the Sons of Mary may overcome it, pleasantly sleeping and unaware.
They finger Death at their gloves' end where they piece and repiece the living wires.
He rears against the gates they tend: they feed him hungry behind their fires.
Early at dawn, ere men see clear, they stumble into his terrible stall,
And hale him forth like a haltered steer, and goad and turn him till evenfall.
To these from birth is Belief forbidden; from these till death is Relief afar.
They are concerned with matters hidden---under the earthline their altars are---
The secret fountains to follow up, waters withdrawn to restore to the mouth,
And gather the floods as in a cup, and pour them again at a city's drouth.
They do not preach that their God will rouse them a little before the nuts work loose.
They do not preach that His Pity allows them to drop their job when they damn-well choose.
As in the thronged and the lighted ways, so in the dark and the desert they stand,
Wary and watchful all their days that their brethren's ways may be long in the land.
Raise ye the stone or cleave the wood to make a path more fair or flat;
Lo, it is black already with the blood some Son of Martha spilled for that!
Not as a ladder from earth to Heaven, not as a witness to any creed,
But simple service simply given to his own kind in their common need.
And the Sons of Mary smile and are blessèd---they know the Angels are on their side.
They know in them is the Grace confessèd, and for them are the Mercies multiplied.
They sit at the feet---they hear the Word---they see how truly the Promise runs.
They have cast their burden upon the Lord, and---the Lord He lays it on Martha's Sons!
.
An important point well said.
thanks...
Why is it so important to think you save yourself?
Anyone who believes that, please contact me for I have some grand oceanfront property in Tibet to sell you at below market price. I'll throw in a certain well known bridge in London if deal is consumated in 48 hours.
Do you think God loves you more than another?
PLEASE show me where I ever said that the word world means elect ?
Kosmos has several meanings . I have never said differently. I have never said the word Kosmos means the elect
This exert from your post PROVES that you have never read what I have written with underatanding
Joh 14:17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you, and will be in you.
[The word world, cannot possibly mean "the elect."]
OF course it does not mean the "elect". The world on this case means the gentiles or pagan nations..not the listeners
The question is what was the intent of the writer .
Did Jesus die to save the whole world?
If your answer to that use of the word Kosmos is yes , then you are a Univeralist . I do not believe you are a Univeralist. So what might the word world mean there? Could Strong's be right?
I have said over and over ..please listen to me ONE more time .
The word world was used by Jesus and the apostles to indicate that the gentiles and the Samaritans were now a part of the plan of salvation..( From Strongs .... a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)
Jesus was teaching that He had other flocks (the world)
Sometimes kosmos means literally the world, sometimes it means the NON JEWS
That is what I have said from the beginning ...you prefer to tilt at windmills
The word WORLD is to indicate that salvation was not just for the Jews.
Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
So your straw-man argument is meaningless
I ask again , what is YOUR UNDERSTANDING of the verses that contain ALL or WORLD ? You have done some dodging and weaving and telling us what it is not , lets hear what it is
I always liken Mary and Martha to today having the Lord, God of the Universe sitting in the Family Room giving His wisdom while Martha's in the kitchen making a taco salad for them to eat. From this perspective it's easy to see why the Lord gently reproved Martha.
Faulty logic.
If the answer to that is "Yes", then:
1. One COULD BE a Universalist
2. One COULD BE drawing a distinction between sufficient/efficient.
3. One COULD BE an unbeliever conducting a psychological profile of Jesus of Nazareth's intent.
4. There are probably others....
I find it interesting that you think asking " what you believe "is a "gottcha" .If your understanding is right why would you be afraid to say it out loud?
See DG I do not play games.
I think that you do. See above.
What I meant was I say what I believe. I am not afraid to say what I believe, I am not ashamed to defend it.
You have now done 2 marathon posts and never disclosed what it is you really do believe. If someone wants to know what I believe I am not ashamed of it, I do not hide or deflect that is what I meant by "play games "
Yeah, right. No games here.
Are you so insecure in what you believe that if someone challenges it or asks for your belief it is a "game"?
I do not believe that ONE Calvinist that posts here disagrees with this. Chirst is offered and is to be offered to the ENTIRE world (all man kind)
I am getting so tired of repeating this that i may just make it my tag line
The Gospel is to be presented to the entire world. But unregenerate man will never come. He has no desire to come, He does not hear the gospel with spiritual ears. God restrains no man from coming to Him. Every man will stand without excuse .
Calvin on John3:16.
For God so loved the world. Christ opens up the first cause, and, as it were, the source of our salvation, and he does so, that no doubt may remain; for our minds cannot find calm repose, until we arrive at the unmerited love of God. As the whole matter of our salvation must not be sought any where else than in Christ, so we must see whence Christ came to us, and why he was offered to be our Savior. Both points are distinctly stated to us: namely, that faith in Christ brings life to all, and that Christ brought life, because the Heavenly Father loves the human race, and wishes that they should not perish. And this order ought to be carefully observed; for such is the wicked ambition which belongs to our nature, that when the question relates to the origin of our salvation, we quickly form diabolical imaginations about our own merits. Accordingly, we imagine that God is reconciled to us, because he has reckoned us worthy that he should look upon us. But Scripture everywhere extols his pure and unmingled mercy, which sets aside all merits.
And the words of Christ mean nothing else, when he declares the cause to be in the love of God. For if we wish to ascend higher, the Spirit shuts the door by the mouth of Paul, when he informs us that this love was founded on the purpose of his will, (Ephesians 1:5.) And, indeed, it is very evident that Christ spoke in this manner, in order to draw away men from the contemplation of themselves to look at the mercy of God alone. Nor does he say that God was moved to deliver us, because he perceived in us something that was worthy of so excellent a blessing, but ascribes the glory of our deliverance entirely to his love. And this is still more clear from what follows; for he adds, that God gave his Son to men, that they may not perish. Hence it follows that, until Christ bestow his aid in rescuing the lost, all are destined to eternal destruction. This is also demonstrated by Paul from a consideration of the time;
for he loved us while we were still enemies by sin, (Romans 5:8, 10.)
And, indeed, where sin reigns, we shall find nothing but the wrath of God, which draws death along with it. It is mercy, therefore, that reconciles us to God, that he may likewise restore us to life.
This mode of expression, however, may appear to be at variance with many passages of Scripture, which lay in Christ the first foundation of the love of God to us, and show that out of him we are hated by God. But we ought to remember -- what I have already stated -- that the secret love with which the Heavenly Father loved us in himself is higher than all other causes; but that the grace which he wishes to be made known to us, and by which we are excited to the hope of salvation, commences with the reconciliation which was procured through Christ. For since he necessarily hates sin, how shall we believe that we are loved by him, until atonement has been made for those sins on account of which he is justly offended at us? Thus, the love of Christ must intervene for the purpose of reconciling God to us, before we have any experience of his fatherly kindness. But as we are first informed that God, because he loved us, gave his Son to die for us, so it is immediately added, that it is Christ alone on whom, strictly speaking, faith ought to look.
He gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him may not perish. This, he says, is the proper look of faith, to be fixed on Christ, in whom it beholds the breast of God filled with love: this is a firm and enduring support, to rely on the death of Christ as the only pledge of that love. The word only-begotten is emphatic, (ejmfatiko That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life.
Let us remember, on the other hand, that while life is promised universally to all who believe in Christ, still faith is not common to all. For Christ is made known and held out to the view of all, but the elect alone are they whose eyes God opens, that they may seek him by faith. Here, too, is displayed a wonderful effect of faith; for by it we receive Christ such as he is given to us by the Father -- that is, as having freed us from the condemnation of eternal death, and made us heirs of eternal life, because, by the sacrifice of his death, he has atoned for our sins, that nothing may prevent God from acknowledging us as his sons. Since, therefore, faith embraces Christ, with the efficacy of his death and the fruit of his resurrection, we need not wonder if by it we obtain likewise the life of Christ.
Still it is not yet very evident why and how faith bestows life upon us. Is it because Christ renews us by his Spirit, that the righteousness of God may live and be vigorous in us; or is it because, having been cleansed by his blood, we are accounted righteous before God by a free pardon? It is indeed certain, that these two things are always joined together; but as the certainty of salvation is the subject now in hand, we ought chiefly to hold by this reason, that we live, because God loves us freely by not imputing to us our sins. For this reason sacrifice is expressly mentioned, by which, together with sins, the curse and death are destroyed. I have already explained the object of these two clauses,
which is, to inform us that in Christ we regain the possession of life, of which we are destitute in ourselves; for in this wretched condition of mankind, redemption, in the order of time, goes before salvation.
Awesome catch, P-M.
Not quite, you may want to read it again , and the commentary I posted
I am tired of saying this..all men are invited, the question is who will come and why
Only to those with reading and learning disabilities
Only to those with reading and learning disabilities
Maybe you should check the spelling and syntax in your tag line.
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