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Ah yes; the 'Inspired Version'!
The one NOT used by SLC Mormons.

What's a SLC Mormon? And how does that differ from say... me?

And why do you say it's NOT used? Please explain this... do you have proof that I don't use it in my study? Or when I teach a class? Show your proof.

Not if Mormons attack the integrity of the Bible. Sorry for assuming you were like those who do!

It is true that I don't see the Bible as an inerrant talisman of all things holy like you do. Most of the writings contained in the Bible are the words of God for the most part. And are of great worth. But it certainly isn't the be all end all that you make it out to be.

A simple examination of it's history puts it into perspective.

1. No prophet assembled it.
Amos 3
7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

The book of Revelation wasn't added to the collection until 400 years after Christ. And the method of deciding which book should be chosen was totally based on popular opinion. It was a popularity contest. Not revelation from God. God has never worked nor will He ever work from the popular opinion of men. That's laughable. Was it the inerrant arbiter of truth before it had all the books added? At what point did it achieve this status? Was it the final word of God before the book of Romans was added? Or Corinthians? Very simple and honest questions...I know you missed my point, so I'll state it. I'm not criticizing the Bible, it is what it is, I am, however, criticizing the way you view it. People like yourself have turned it into a modern day golden calf.

2. Your belief fails under this very simple scrutiny. Amos' words are the eternal law. You can't get around it. You can't dismiss it. There is no wiggle room in Amos' words. If it didn't come from a prophet it didn't come from God. There were lots of other writings from lots of other prophets that weren't popular enough with the people of the time to be included in what those men decided was to be their canon. So the Bible, even though it contains a lot of great things because those are the writings of true prophets, can't be everything you make it out to be. Amos 3:7 is a warning from God of how to know if something is truly from Him.

Btw, can you explain why you're exempt from this scripture:

Amos 3
7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

As Paul states in 2 Tim 3 that false religions would reject the Prophet of the last days. How does that not apply to you?

What I said here:
[sp]A couple things; 1. You're assuming that what you believe is correct and your gospel is the same as what the original apostles preached.

Has nothing to do with your response here:
[daniel1212]That is absurd. We have abundant manuscript evidences attesting to the preservation of NT texts, with only minor variations which do not effect doctrine, while you and the Muslims have zero MSS evidence to support the substantial doctrinal changes being made that would be required to explain the substantial conflict btwn your religion and Scripture.

Again you're assuming you're interpreting scripture correctly and that your doctrine is correct. But you have no prophet to a approve your conclusions or correct your mistakes. You're in the same boat that the Pharisees were in. They had scripture too but rejected the prophets and relied solely on tradition and their own understanding ...and got it completely wrong.

That is illogical. Preservation of texts is not the same thing as interpretation of it, though in Mormonic minds it is.

Childish insults. And an all around ignorant statement. Preservation of text is a red herring you just introduced into this discussion. We are discussing you're inability to interpret scripture correctly. Which is true, because without a prophet there's no way for you to understand the depth and scope of the doctrine being discussed in the New Testament. This is why there are thousands of denominations and the gap of understanding on simple things such as baptism.

Which is also absurd. Even the veracity of apostlic[sic] preaching was subject to testing by the established written word of God, not vice versa, and how much more must the the claims of those claiming to be prophets today (or in the 1800s) be examined in the light of Scripture. Which exposes your demonic Joseph Smith to be lair from Hell, which is where he is now.

And you have it all totally backwards. Why do you think the Jews stoned the prophets? Why did they crucify Jesus? Because they would never yield to the fact they were wrong.

The final arbiter of truth is never the scriptures. James explains,
James 1:
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

We are to go to God first in prayer and He may use the scriptures to teach us what the truth is...

Indeed, and thus Mormonism is of the devil .

Which is exactly what the Jews said about Jesus...

The vast majority of people will not be saved even those that claim to believe in Jesus. Jesus Himself made that very clear. The elect will come out of the world and find the right path that leads to salvation. The rest will understand their mistakes at the final judgement and be cast out. I don't need to call you names or cast you down to hell...I trust the Lord will award each of us according to our works.

They their fruits ye shall know them was the promise. What was Joseph Smith's fruits?

1969 351 Mustang Mach 1

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. (2 Corinthians 11:3-4)

For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. (2 Corinthians 11:13-15)
A couple things;
1. You're assuming that what you believe is correct and your gospel is the same as what the original apostles preached. In other words, your interpretation is the right interpretation. Given that you have no prophets and God hasn't spoken to any of you in 2000 years... I was say that's suspect.

2. The light that is spoken of in 2 Cor means enlightenment or understanding. It is not physical light. It goes with "light and knowledge". What Paul means is, an angel trying to give you knowledge that is different than what we told you, then it's the devil trying to deceive you.

3. The light spoken of by Joseph Smith in the history of the Church, "...—just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.", is referring to physical light. It was brighter than the sun....

Satan cannot mimic the glory of God because he has no glory. He can try to appear as an angel because he can sometimes make himself visible. Therefore when someone sees him do this, they assume because it's supernatural that he's from God.

What Joseph Smith saw was the glory of God which produces physical light. He's very very bright.

A few of them are pretty, but some of them are as ugly as mud.

I don't want to be rude...but yea. I was thinking the same thing. My reaction went from uggghhhh to ewwwww! Were the judges liberal women?

When you don’t label what A represents, and what B represents, how do you know what C represents?

Actually I did just that. You just couldn't make the connection for whatever reason. Point 1 + Point 2 = Point 3

[SP] 1. The law to receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost is laying on of hands by someone in authority to give it.
2. Cornelius was a righteous man who keeps the commandments and was already receiving angelic messengers.
3. It is reasonable to assume that Cornelius had received the Gift of the Holy Ghost previously.
4. A+B=C

The Holy Ghost leads and guides into all truth. Had Cornelius already received the Spirit, he wouldn’t have needed to hear from Peter. How’s that for logic?

Your logic is a mess. If you would have read all posts we wouldn't be having this confusion. In this context there are two type of the Holy Ghost at play here. You're conflating the two and coming to a very wrong conclusion. The Gift of the Holy Ghost is different, it stays with a person as a personal guide. You don't have that. You have the basic version which is given to everyone. Just because Cornelius had previously received the Gift, doesn't mean he can't have moments where he feels the Spirit very strongly when having certain experiences.

When your first prophet said he saw two men, and that one was the Father, and one was the Son, he proved to be a liar. A clever guy, but a liar nonetheless.


No, what he did was clear up 1800 years of confusion about the very nature of God. Which what a true prophet does. The problem is you won't except a prophet unless he justifies your own personal understanding of the eternities and deity. But that's not what a prophet does. He corrects doctrine.

But suppose we just pray for one another. God will reveal the truth. It may not happen quickly. It may even be painful.

I've been where you are. I was raised as a baptist and taught to hate Mormons. God had to show me the truth and He did. Then I realized I was wrong.

[SP]A+B=C[SP]

[Zuriel]Is that common core math?

Umm no. That's called the Transitive Law of mathematics. It an intrinsic part of mathematics and logic. Been around as long as time itself.

Your church apparently assumes a lot of things.

Actually we've had a living prophet at the head of our Church since it's founding in 1830. So, we don't have to assume anything. I don't have to fill in any gaps. The truths I've explained to you in my previous response are taught to our kids at around 3yrs old.

The writers of the works chosen to be in your Bible, taught in concepts and not in details. They contain just enough detail to move the story along.

Assume? God’s word is not sloppy about such important details.

Arrogance and ignorance are a terrible combination. Perhaps you should go to the baptism threads and make this pronouncement and straighten everyone out.

Yea but don’t Catholics believe that the Pope was chosen by God and if he goes against the will of God, God will remove him? So why are you complaining?

IF it was so important don’t you think it would have been?

Not really. It's not in the context of what is being communicated. They taught each other the details. If you were to ask Paul he would just say, "Well, wasn't it obvious?"

if baptism was required for salvation Jesus would not have been baptized as he was not a sinner!

1. Jesus' roll was also to be an example to us.
2. Jesus said He was baptized to fulfill all righteousness.
3. Baptism is a commandment of His Father and Jesus perfectly kept all the commandments.

I guess I need to lay hands on your book of double standards, lol!

No. It's a very simple logic.

1. The law to receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost is laying on of hands by someone in authority to give it.
2. Cornelius was a righteous man who keeps the commandments and was already receiving angelic messengers.
3. It is reasonable to assume that Cornelius had received the Gift of the Holy Ghost previously.
4. A+B=C


Peter was still preaching when “the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word”. Acts 10:44

The Holy Ghost spoken of in Acts 10:44 is not the same as spoken of in Acts 8.

1. Acts 10 is what is known as the "Light of Christ". It's like turning the lights on in a room. It covers everyone. It is given to the whole world and it's purpose is to testify of truth. When you hear someone testify that Jesus is the Christ you feel it down deep it is true. That's the light of Christ. It is also your conscious that gives you a bad feeling when you do something bad and makes you feel good when you show compassion to another person.

2. Acts 8 is like a spot light focused on a person in that room that stays on them. It's a gift specifically given to someone that is baptized by someone in authority. It marks them as a member of Christ's true Church. The light is still on in the room covering everyone, but there are spot lights on those that have chosen to progress toward entering the Lord's kingdom.

3. The Gift of the Holy Ghost is given because the Lord promised that His disciples would experience specific persecutions from the devil. Therefore, He blesses them with more support from heaven to get through it.

Members of Christ's Church have the Light of Christ plus the Gift of the Holy Ghost. To them it's all the same. So, when they are talking among themselves, they don't have to specifically point out the difference because the difference is irrelevant to them in their context. This presents a problem for you however. You don't have a prophet to tell you the difference so you conflate the two. You feel the truth of Jesus and then think you have the Gift.

speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance

Speaking in tongues, when it's from God, has a purpose. God doesn't perform mystical tricks. He is the God of perfect order. He doesn't cause people to roll around on the ground and spat a bunch of nonsense, that's the devil deceiving people. The real world application of speaking in tongues is a blessing given to missionaries going to foreign nations that helps them come up to speed in the native language in a short amount of time. God never causes people to lose control.

I’m sure this will come as very bad news to the thief who died next to Jesus.... especially since Jesus promised him that he would be in paradise with Him that day.

Paradise isn't heaven.

Show me where Paul was baptized.

So if it's not listed in the few writings of the new testament it didn't happen?

1. Cornelius and his household received the gift of the Holy Ghost without the laying on of hands by the apostles.

You're making assumption based on what isn't said.

Acts 8
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

It's quite clear that the ONLY way to receive the gift of the holy ghost is via laying on of hands by someone in authority.

Therefore, I can say with assurity that because Cornelius was a devout man he received the gift of the holy ghost by laying on of hands.

3. What you are teaching on the Godhead is not in the Bible. God the Father is a Spirit. He dwells in the Son of God, and the Son in him. Joseph Smith lied when he said that he saw the Father and the Son as two separate men.

Does Jesus have a body today? How can Jesus be different than His Father?

God the Father and Jesus appeared to the prophet Joseph Smith to clear up all the false doctrine taught by the devil to mankind. And it is absolutely true.

What you're teaching didn't come from a prophet.

The Bible tells us everything we need to know about the Holy Spirit.

No sense arguing with you over it. That's the path you've chosen.

The International Bible Society
"No church created the canon, but the churches and councils gradually accepted the list of books recognized by believers everywhere as inspired.

It was actually not until 367 AD that the church father Athanasius first provided the complete listing of the 66 books belonging to the canon."

Did the Bible was contain everything you need to know? Was it complete for everyone before 367AD? Or are all those people just screwed?

It's just so strange... a couple guys get together and choose your canon for you and they chose it based just on popular opinion. Mmmmkay...

But God can't correct any mistakes in that popular opinion, according to you...

I find that very strange.

Unfortunately because you have limited resources, you don't really understand what is referred to as the Holy Spirit.

Every person born into this world has access to what is referred to as "the Light of Christ." This provides every person with a conscious. This will also, if nurtured correctly will provide a basic connection to God. In other words, it can provide a basic understanding of right and wrong through a persons feelings.

What Peter is talking about is something much more. In Christ's true Church more is given by the laying on of hands by someone in authority.

Acts 8
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

This is referred to as the "gift of the Holy Ghost." This does more than just the "light of Christ". It is also referred to as the second comforter.

The Gift of the Holy Ghost does many things for those who have received it via laying of hands. Mainly it teaches and gives greater light and knowledge as long as the person remains worthy.

My own experience, as I was raised and baptized into a baptist church, when I received the Gift of the Holy Ghost, it was a physical change that happened to me. It gave me the ability to read scripture and reference and understand how that scripture relates to the whole gospel. It was pretty amazing.

The Gift of the Holy Ghost allows the person to receive personal revelation from God. Literally, see visions and inspiration of what the Lord wants you see and know. It can also prompt you to go and do things that will keep you safe. I have been woken up many many times and prompted to check doors and windows on my home. Or even to get out of bed go down stairs and catch a one of my kids sneaking some game time on the computer in the middle of the night. :)

This is not a novelty, it's absolutely necessary to be accepted by Jesus and be allowed entry into the kingdom of God. You can't get into heaven with out it.

This is one of the works we are required to do and we'll judged for... This is the reason in Luke 13 the Lord doesn't allow people who claim to believe in Him into heaven.

And what Paul referred to as having a "form of godliness" but warns to stay away from them in 2 Tim 3. People that claim to believe in Christ but by their own choice they didn't receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost by laying on of hands.

Which is a reference back to Luke 13, Christ will not allow them into heaven and cast them out. There are actually a couple warnings that Christ made that were recorded. So He must have spoken of this a lot.

The other is the third member of the God head and is a person of spirit. But He will get a body eventually after Christ returns to the earth.

Skynet?

I grow my own pickles so... nope pretty much taste the same. :)