Free Republic

Thats how it starts.. about half of it.. then he goes for a walk.. this is doing the viral thing.. I suppose.. I am liking the Waco Anniversary theory.. but hating that they didn’t use these trucks to actually do something to save lives..

April 19th is the anniversary of the Clinton administration’s massacre of the Branch Dividians, which burned 84 people, including 24 children, alive. Perhaps DHS was anticipating some trouble in Waco on that day.

Another great point.. could be that is what was up.. but it would be a terrible shame that they didn't keep track of what was happening in the surrounding area.. like a fire at a Fertilizer plant.. perhaps..

Yea.. whats that about.. all of these stories that DHS didn’t know there was Ammonium Nitrate at a Fertilizer plant?

Seems like a reasonable deployment given the unknown nature (and much speculated ‘Tax activist’) of the bombings in Boston and the April 19th anniversary of the deaths in Waco.

I didn't check that.. Wanted to confirm the post was genuine so checked before and after to make sure he was from Waco really.. but didn't know anything more than this was a bit off.. and wondered what it means.. I looked and looked in coverage for when this Fire was called in and no luck.

You explanation seems reasonable.. but these guys carry real "Communications" with them.. if this thing was called into 911 system.. and it was.. because Firefighters died on the scene.. in the explosion.. then given the threat.. (that you would have thought someone would have considered.. considering.. Fertilizer Plant..) Why were these guys sitting on their hands and not clearing West at least?

I have searched and searched reports and not found any mention of when this was called in.. which will come.. I guess.. but.. rather than conspiracy.. lets just talk about why if DHS was there.. weren’t they evacuating???? as the previous Nitrate explosion in Texas killed thousands..

Lets get to the right story and if something even stupider shows up.. we will deal with that..

Nope.. never heard it.. Was in Dallas last year for Glenn Beck thing.. I was struck by HOW HUGE everything is.. and HOW HOT it gets. Been to Waco years back.. too.. nice town..

Do folks still pull off the road to let you pass?

Cripple.. obviously, you are NOT big on checking your facts before opening your yap. I have been quiet around here for a while.. but there is a record to check.. and yet you didn’t. So, don’t be surprised if serious people don’t take you seriously..

You know he used that same words.. “goobermint” , never heard that term before.

Thats not true.. check the link.. UStream recorded the upload Tuesday at 6:58 PM.. thats as dated as you get.. its contemporaneous.. and in a stream of other non-conspiracy minded reports.. the guy is just doing his thing.. but its a data point. If you watch the thing.. he gets off of his feet and goes and shows you the trucks..

Cripple, just weird... but yea... could come to that.. when was this thing called in to EMS? If it was that morning.. then this would make some sense.. but if you check the thread.. DHS is saying Ammonium Nitrate at the facility was a big surprise which is why Fire Teams were doing what they were doing... but if DHS knew to be there.. then why not evacuate?

Why look for conspiracy when there is just plain huge incompetence to be found everywhere??

This guy is definitely from Waco. Video blogging the response now.. silly videos like visiting local store before.. in his narrative he says he saw these trucks rolling in as he was getting home from work.. perhaps 5:30PM? What was the timing of the first EMS call from the West Fertilizer Plant?

This endeavor is a huge, and fruitless waste of time. Worse, as it is an attempt to pervert a relationship sanctified by God himself, it is one that carries consequence, as an evil act, and not one of salvation.

However, any Christian who can "convert" any Jew is welcome to the attempt. As long as coercion or threat is not part of the attempt. Otherwise, we are each free to share what we feel is the good news of God's love.

However, Jews who are properly educated are more likely to shake a Christian's faith than the other way around.. and thus, its is normally bad form to put someone in a position where they must not share their thoughts so as not to offend one who is genuinely reaching out in love.

If all of the evil schemes of the past to force Jews into converting to this or that had been able to succeed, there would have been no Jews more than 2000 years ago. So, let go of this idea that animated the Inquisition and the Pogroms of the Czars.. it is unseemly.

The Flying Inmans have done battle on FR against the religion of the Romneys, the Becks and now the Huntsmans for several years and faced opponents who have attempted to see us banned, and who have threatened FR with the loss of their donations if that did not succeed. We have been called Nazis, jihadists, arsonists, and of course your favorite, "bigots" innumerable times. This is nothing new to us.

Good enough. I am familiar with these legal terms. I have been encouraged not to discuss the issue.

This is the first time I have crossed the Flying Inmans, and you have clearly and cogently stated the chaos that follows you. I am now and will continue to be a supporter of this site. I like some of the things that I have seen you post, but on balance I don't care for the lot of you. If that gets me banned, then I will join that crowd.

Says the great arbiter of Maturity and Knowledge.

Read the link. It is pretty ok. I can't agree 100% but it gets to the deeper issues that we face when confronting Islam.

I believe ultimately, Islam has to come down in a gale of laughter, which it cannot withstand, as the Cartoon thing showed. But, it will take courage we haven't found yet.

Attack Mormonism by attacking the tenets of the faith, which are a hard sell to anyone.

Attack Romney through his record, but, just understand, the guy is going nowhere.. he stood up and made a horses tail out of himself trying to defend RomneyCare and it was the most impassioned defense of ObamaCare made yet.

Newt fried himself in exactly the same way.. stick a fork in both of them.. they are done.. only the MSM believes they are relevant. I lost all interest in Newt when he supported Dede Scozzafava. But, his attack on Ryan, then support of the individual mandate woke everyone up. But, in the end, as much as he sucks (Romney).. I will take him over the guy in the Whitehouse.. but I won't like it.

And frankly, If they all showed up in Israel on August 24th, I would be cool with it. After losing hope, I have secured the possibility of getting there.. but not on any of the expensive tours.. and not to any of the Christian events.. but, I loved the Restoring Honor Rally and I think this is important too..

Some folks rightly wonder if attacking our President's policy from Foreign soil is acceptable for a Presidential Candidate.. I just happen to think the policy is such a horror that in this case it justifies it. Just as if some president in the future would propose destroying the Vatican, yea.. be there and say no.. seriously. I am sure lots of folks would say good riddance.. but for me.. I like the Pope. The institution is on balance a source of good and I will defend it, just the same way as I ran to Washington when the Dems were organizing to make Iraq into another Vietnam. And this, even though, we armed and trained the Iraqi's so that they are potentially the most formidable force in the Mid-East other than Israel. This may come back to haunt.

Face it dalight - you singled out a freeper in an attempt to bully them into silence because they dare to expose romney’s mormonism and how it would influence any potential presidency. YOU sir mentioned mormonism FIRST. You sir mentioned romney FIRST. It is all in #17 and there is NO WAY nana was refering to either in post #12.

Read my reply to Greyfox. You are all wet. My point is, was and will be, this thread isn't about Romney. It isn't about anything now.. except for silliness, but that's par for the course once a thread has been hijacked.

2). And if you don't change your ways of mentioning "actionable" or "libelous" posts - it'll be you who won't be here.

Noted. That is reasonable.

Stop challenging his credentials you say

Stop examining his character you say

Find any quote in my entire history of FR where I say this about Romney, and I will Opus out today. Otherwise, stick to the facts. I know its challenging.

In my years of posting on the RF, I doubt I have seen a more sanctimonious batch of posts that those posted by dalight who has consistently lectured others for bigotry while employing total bigotry in doing so.

I have been mostly ignoring crap on this thread, and somehow this got cleared with clearing the old pings.

Grey, you are also a credible poster, you are welcome to your opinions and I don't care what names you call me.. mostly you are sane, present your arguments based on fact and frankly, your history is full of interesting and worthwhile posts. To some point, I have taken a hard core Jewish approach to get these folks to see that viewpoint matters. We can do our thing here, have a strident and powerful viewpoint and leave room for others around here. However, when viewpoint drifts into what we in the Jewish faith call Lashon Hara, the wicked tongue.. the sin is on you.

It normally is a fine line and posters around here delight in dancing around it. Some of your friends here don't have a clue where that line is.

As for any bigoted statements you might claim I have made, I am happy to consider your examples and defend them or accept that I was wrong. Just remember that, Judaism and Christianity share much, but some things we will never agree on. Defending these differences is not bigotry, it is just the fault lines. Bigotry is not the same as having certainty of one's faith. Bigotry is selling that Romney or Beck are evil people because of what Joseph Smith did.

It is important that people understand the nature of Mormonism, as facts, as interpreted against the holdings of mainstream Christianity, or Judaism, or what ever. I look at your posts and see someone doing that. Nana's posts do not. Your analysis of Mormon dogma and self aggrandizing and how this relates to folks like Beck, Huntsman and Romney is good stuff. Where it in this thread as related to what drives Beck, it would be of note, Unfortunately we just get to suck on asinine charges like "Rapist", and other crap spewed by these lesser lights.

We are blessed and lucky to have you here to save FreeRepublic then.

LOL. You seem to be sane and mostly on point. Don't volunteer to be part of this group. They may be fellow travelers and value the same things you do, but their tactics and sloppiness are at best problematic.

You should be looking out for them rather than me. I just was posting in this thread and the crazies flew in.. Nana said something I found a bit off the wall, and I checked her history and it is a problem. These other silly people volunteered to become fellow travelers. Each has given me some hope and Nana took it back away. The rest, the jury is still out. Keep it up, I have no beef with you.

So you claim not to have a dog in this fight - yet you vociferously defend romney - to the point of trolling to get a conservate, anti-romney freeper banned. Perhaps you need to stick to the truth instead.

I applaud the anti-Romney, though, I think he is a non-starter, just a fly in the ointment, his time has come and gone, he will never rise above RomneyCare.. and his defense of it was political suicide. With stuff like this, who needs to be offensive, sell religious bigotry, and make libelous statements? Folks who insist on that crap don't belong here. Change your ways, and you do belong here. Its that simple. The investment was not in Romney but you, with the hopes we might get some real posters rather than pains in the tail.

But, I will point out for the umpteenth time, this thread is about Politicians going to Israel to declare their support for her and to tell Obama to pound sand if he thinks he can gain by destroying her. It isn't about Romney!!!!

You don't like rinos like mitt being bashed? hmmmmm

Stick to the truth and stay on topic and you can have at it all day long.

Hijack an interesting thread and chase off the sane people, I get irritated.

If you would or any of your pack of crazies would actually check, it is obviously who I am supporting. And its not Romney, TPay, Huckster, or any of the other midgets who have put their name in though I do like and appreciate Herman Cain. I want him in the Senate. I am a huge West fan but he is not running. If he would become a Governor for a bit I would be interested in him for President in about 12 years, but for now.. he is just a personal hero, but I decided not to bring my candidate into this bizarre land of hatred and twisted logic.

The Republican party's initial social issues "rights" issues it took on was the "twin relics of barbarism" -- slavery and polygamy.

BTW now you are getting interesting, facts evidence, debate..

The problem is though, that to do this the Republican party also asserted in unconstitutional ways, the primacy of the Federal government to affect these changes against the wishes of the States. This is a stance for which we are paying dearly today.

I will reply to your prior foolishness with the fact that people of the time, just didn't feel that way, you are interpreting events through your own value system, not theirs. If kidnapping was charged at the time, and proven, then this certainly would be a fair and appropriate statement to make, but Nana didn't bother to know and state the facts, but rather went for the libelous and more defamatory lie. Understand? The rest of the crap you are selling equating insisting that we observe the law of the time and the custom of the time in judging the behavior of the time is equivalent to supporting slavery and thus you call me out for my support of slavery, is absurd on its face, and a lamentable drift into dementia..

The people group behind Islam are traced back in Galatians 4 to Hagar's child.

Mohammad, taught the connection of the Arabic people to Ishmael the son of Hagar. The actual trace is not anywhere near as clear. His point was to assert the primacy of his faith over Judaism which had rejected his teaching. But, in making this claim, he took on the aspects as well of Genesis 16:12 “And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man’s hand against him”.

But your interpretation is quite foolish and naive. A site that explains the dynamic between these faiths in a mannor that Christians can relate to is: Isaac or Ishmael

Enjoy.

Is this what FR is becoming with certain posters? They'll muscle into Romney threads...start dropping legal action hints and implied threats left and right in an attempt to get posters to not say anything negative long run about Mitt Romney?

This isn't a Romney thread, these folks sacked the thread with blatant bigotry, and libels about Mormonism, that even though I have very little sympathy for Mormon teaching, clear and blatant religiously bigoted statements are generally unacceptable and specifically prohibited by our TOS. If these folks were saying this about Judaism, the whole community would be up in arms. I can't insist on my defense and not provide it to others.

This thread was about Presidential candidates going to Israel to attend Glenn Beck's event and it was throroughly hijacked into an anti-Mitt (which would be ok without the libels) and anti-Glenn Beck coupled with more libels that someone can actually act on..

If the behavior of this group weren't pernicious, and not drawing complaints of other freepers, I would have let it go, but instead, it seemed reasonable to draw these people out, expose them for who they are and let you understand the nature of the problem and the disruption they cause.

Its not about not saying anything negative about Romney, its about making sure what we say is factual, foundationed in evidence, and logical argument and doesn't violate our TOS so that FR is exposed to Legal and Moral risk.

Specifically, the attack against Beck is fraught with peril couched in the terms of obvious calumnies. (The making of false and defamatory statements in order to damage someone's reputation; slander.) They are seeking to create monetary damages through the vehicle of FR to the Mercury Radio Arts company. The thread topic was reasonable, and these people if they knew how to argue their points would be valuable, but instead, they are just leaving a record that could draw this institution into court and putting a huge exclamation point on it by citing reasons of religious intolerance as the primary reason to oppose and damage the commercial interests of Glenn Beck and this firm. We can speak freely, but only the truth is a defense, and where an animus can be proven, a willful intent to harm regardless of the facts, it is a recipe for disaster.

However, the presence of my counter statements and statements of FR policy are equally protective, but this is but one thread. It is not my business to watch these people and I would have preferred to not have engaged them, but after the 20th or 30th post haranguing me, I decided they were enough of a problem to bring to your attention.

God bless you and thank you for this forum.

(I think the slave industry would have absolutely "loved" your legal aid or PR spin back then!)

You still aren't very interesting. But, you have managed bizarre, and unhinged. As logic, reason and fairness are not necessary in the conduct of your argument, I don't know where to go.

You have accepted that the rape charge is unfair, you haven't recognized that such a charge would never have been considered or laid at the time because such a marriage would neither be considered immoral or illegal, with the exception that in the case of Joseph Smith, he was already married. People seriously, and strenuously objected to this.

But, strangely, your position is what was considered the Liberal position at the time. But, then, some 20 years later, the Republican party was the Liberal party and the Democrats were the Conservatives. The rise of the primacy of the rights of the individual, the core value of the Liberal philosophy started in a good place to us all now, in the dignity of the individual and the basic right to self determination which is offended by the concept of life-long imposed servitude as property.

Yet, this same philosophy became extended to form the basis of the primacy of the woman's interest over the life of her unborn child that is the foundation of the "right" to abort. Something that I hope we can agree offends the basic dignity of life, yet these "rights" are but extensions of "rights" that we as 21th Century individuals find truly basic.

Oddly, though, it was not Jewish custom that led exclusively to the acceptance of the one man, one wife norm that we cherish today. In fact, this was a Roman sensibility that became increasingly more accepted in Jewish and then early Christian society. Augustine of Hippo came out and clearly defined this norm, "That the good purpose of marriage, however, is better promoted by one husband with one wife, than by a husband with several wives, is shown plainly enough by the very first union of a married pair, which was made by the Divine Being Himself." And by the 5th Century, Polygamy was only infrequently practiced in either the Jewish or Christian communities. The Jewish community accepted the absolute ban of this practice by Rabbi Gershom in the year 1000CE. It was this 1000+ year history that Joseph Smith assaulted, but he was by no means the first or the last, as the proponents of gay marriage are following that outrage with the greater outrage of legalizing plural marriages once again. But, understand, it is the dignity of women that is offended by plural marriage, not the explicit teachings of the Bible. But, as Augustine pointed out, both the man and the woman's dignity and respect for each other is best served by the one man, one woman formulation and this has become a basic tenant of both Judaism and most branches of Christianity.

As for Mormonism, God puts these things here for a reason, and its up to us to discover and understand this reason. Islam is here to do the role they are doing which is declared in Genesis. Perhaps the why is as you understand it, simply to teach us to say no. So, I can't and won't fault you for doing this. But, I believe your behavior is undercutting your message.

BTW, David Einhorn is one of my hero's from that time, was threatened with being tarred and feathered literally for taking an anti-slavery stance in his congregation in Philadelphia. However, Einhorn was considered a Universalist even though he was a Jewish Rabbi and his ideas animated the core of what is called Classical Reform Judiasm, which with the Quakers and Unitarians and others were the primary opposition to slavery at the time.

One can imagine what you would say about these people, but understand that you are adopting the ethics and morals they held dear. And there is a reason, it is the message is more important than the messenger.

Keep care.

I am so thankful to be in the land of the sane once again.

Allahpundit posts anything and everything he can to put a negative line out on Palin. Part of this is just traffic baiting, but the guy is pretty low most of the time.. I saw this article and skipped it because of his name.. hate giving him the traffic.

Some have said Guliani would help Palin and you would think he would help Romney as well if he got in.. but Palin will slaughter Romney in Iowa, South Carolina, and beyond. I can't see how that helps him.

Colofornian, Don't feel bad, I just decided not to waste my time with you. I thought Nana could be brought back from the brink, but I was wrong.

Also, remember to look at the post being replied to.. it helps in sorting our who the "you" refers to.

As for Nana, I went back in her history about 5 months.. and her posts were pretty consistent. I haven't taken the time to look at yours. You really don't interest me that much at the moment as you are seemingly a member of this pack.

We had to live with a pack like you in the threads for the candidate I really like, but fortunately, the leader of this group is gone an it is a blessing. I haven't bothered to figure out who is the leader of yours. I keyed in on Nana because she said something trollish, then I wondered who she was.

akid it was your sanctimonious self that was trying hard to get me nanned from FRee Republic

You are the person trying hard to get banned. I am sure you will accomplish it.

I will not be voting for Romney either as I have already said several times anyone can look at my record and know who I support in short order but you have never bothered, even though I invited you to do this. Your statements are vile, and you know better. I have not treated you with any bigotry, and I was glad for your single rational post.

This post is irrational in my opinion. Obviously, you will not be asking anyone who actually knows what scripture says, but you are welcome to worship as you please and believe as you please. I have made no claims other than to judge your behavior here on FR. This is inside of my rights. As for your immortal soul, that's not my province. So spare me your thoughts on this. Spare me your Mitt bashing and your name calling. Stick to the facts and you will always be welcome. This is a foreign concept to you, but so be it.

I suspect you need to brush up on your understanding of the Holy Trinity, unless you would place Jesus above the Father who is master of all, the creator and the source of all. You make statements that directly oppose those made by Jesus and Paul and tell me that you know much.. but what ever you believe, you believe and I am fine with that.

And, I noticed you didn't copy JR on the post where you claim he agrees with you. I am interested at this point, if he is interested in going on the record agreeing with your libels. He would be a different guy than I think I know, though we have only met briefly and I am sure he doesn't recall me as anything other than a pest. But, I have been wrong in the past and I am sure I will be wrong again in the future. My recommendation is that you are unsafe to continue here. But, this isn't my house. Its JR's and the Mods have the only and the last say, not me. I have learned over the years to trust them to do the right thing.

Have a good life.

But unlike you, most of our Jewish posters call God...G-d..

This is merely an affectation. For certain posters here I adopt this style in their thread, but it has nothing to do with Jewishness.

The religiously bigoted opinions of small minded sanctimonious hypocrites like you sound like from your posting history does not effect me in the slightest..

It is interesting to see you call me a hypocrite, oh hypocrite who calls people names and jumps to conclusions without proof, over and over. You are barely a Christian though I am sure you would never understand that.. and a conservative has the moral sense to be sure before making outrageous claims. And I am sure, nothing I say will affect you as even my praise isn't of interest.

If you looked at my posting history, you haven't looked much..

Now as for the other things.. I will point out..

The Gospel of Mark 12:29-30 mentions that Jesus considered the beginning exhortation of the Shema to be the first of his two greatest commandments: "The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment." KJV So, it seems to me, he would never agree with you on this.

Now, this is a bit of a mistranslation one supposes for the sake of keeping questions to a minimum, but the line actually goes . "Shema Israel, Adonai Eluhenu, Adonai Echad. "Hear, O Israel; The Lord is our God, The Lord is One."

But before you go banging at me.. lets listen to Paul too..

in 1 Corinthians 8:6 vis-à-vis the risen Christ: "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." KJV.

I am God's servant and that is good enough for me.. I thank God each day for Christians, though folks like you worry me just the same. If you ever wonder why Jews fear people who call themselves Christians, look in the mirror. Then you will understand why they behave the way they do.

My advice and I believe you will be too ashamed to do it is to take all that you have written and all that I have replied to your pastor, and see how he advises you. Tell me how that comes out.

Keep care..

By the way, awesome post, the post you should have made all along. This is FR stuff and justifies the Mods patience.

Americans dont have to go to Israel with Beck to do this

Men don't have to do anything, this is what we call free will

2. Beck claims he thinks he was “asked to go” Who asked him to ??? He has not ever said. THIS is important.

No, frankly it isn't. Events of the past few days have proven that Beck for what ever reason is once again right on the money. And, this is correct in both senses of the double entendre. He is going to make a fortune on an insane bet only a few days before, and perhaps Obama was forced to accelerate plans because of him or Obama's plan always was to attempt to force Israel to capitulate so he can declare that he "made peace" in the middle east. The peace he seeks is the false peace of impending Horror. Nevertheless, it is a call for people to decide where they stand. Pay attention to the message not the messenger. Analyze the message for yourself and decide if it is a true message. God talks to us all, often to the wicked with urgency and hope, that they might do his will.

Throughout the Torah there are generally accepted 613 separate statements attributed to God instructing humans on how they should act. The 10 Commandments encase the minimum standard only, what is necessary for humans to participate in the community of God. However, the first of the Commandments has turned out the be the hardest for many people. But, Commands, Requests or Suggestions it is all the same, the consequence is the same, the urgency in the end is just the same. Love suggests where as Love also demands. To the free spirit, who lives in God's presence, a suggestion is good enough. And, it is received with gratitude and appreciation.

3. God is concerned with the people of Israel, the Jews, the people of His spirit...not the Nation of Israel, the secular government..the physical..

Yes, this is so true. So true. God is deeply concerned.

4. Didya ever think of PRAYING for Israel. In the Name of Jesus of course....and asking God whast He wants ???

You may pray to Jesus, I don't. I have to read the ten in accordance with my tradition. Nevertheless, before I prayed on this issue, I believed that Israel was a problem not a solution. I was straightened out. Israel is a test. Will you pass? Will we?

5. God will have His way regardless...

Though God is the master of all, his favorite vehicle for his work is us. He delights when we listen, and he corrects when we don't. He is patient knowing that even a million years is but a second, and impatient because the suffering of even one child is a horror.

Bless you. Keep posting like this and you will be a credit to FR.

dalight you introduced Romney and mormonism into the thread so you must want them to be addressed..

Cool, a nearly cogent post.

You made a post that seemed off of the wall, and rather than fly off of the handle, I took the time to look up your posts and read what you have been writing. Due diligence requires this, perhaps you had a point and I wasn't getting it.

Your post was, "I would hope that Gov Sarah Palin doesnt appear to give any credence to this sham..."

This stuck me as odd. My mom who is 82 has decided to go to this and a number of events because, regardless of who is saying no, no has to be said or Israel will exist no more in a very short time. This is a reality, just because Glenn Beck says it doesn't mean it isn't so. But, here you were calling the event a sham. And I thought, odd. So I looked up your previous posts and found, to my surprise, that you have been trolling threads bashing Romney, Beck and Mormonism in general and in these threads folks have been calling you out and saying stop this crap.

You think you are educating people, but in fact, you are just filling our threads with crap. This is your own crusade, you and a number of fellow travelers and in the general world, it is called a dirty trick. But, worse, it is an appeal not to reason, but rather an appeal to bigotry.

I am not going to get sucked into defending Mormonism, or Islam, or Communism. All of these systems of thought are flawed in my eyes but you see, per force, I also see Christianity as flawed. Yet, I love Christians and sincerely believe they are a blessing to this green earth and all of God's creation. I know Mormons and have worked for them and I read and love Orson Scott Card.

The book of Joshua instructs the Israelites to kill and dispossess the Caananites from all of the land. And, when they wouldn't, couldn't even though it cost them Israel in the end, was this God's intention all along? It is a bitter pill when you confuse love and hate.

As for your question about laws of states 40 years after, the discussion was about when did laws regarding to the age of consent get passed originally and why?

As for Joseph Smith his problem with the law was not that the question of whether she was too young, at the time the practice of marrying a 14 year old was perfectly acceptable. The issue was Bigamy, which people seriously frowned on and which was against the law in the State of Illinois. But, I really don't care about the rest of it with regards to defending anything about it. Monogamy is a blessing. Faiths that respect human dignity are inherently "liberal" but small "l" liberal means about 180 degrees away from what is generally accepted as "Liberal" thought today, big government socialism and the inevitability or tyranny.

Yet, none of that matters. In your zeal, one supposes to expose the "depravity" of the Mormon faith, based on characterizations based on your views of the behavior of Joseph Smith and the mind bending doctrines of that faith, you skip over the line from that cause and into simple religious bigotry. Many if not most of the Mormons I know are really good people, I don't know how this comes to pass, especially given all that is generally known about their faith, but there it is. Mormonism used to teach Racial bigotry, but they renounced it. It used to teach Polygamy and yet they renounced that even though zealots attempt it regardless. But, that is the nature of zealots.

You are acting out of zealotry too, though, and this is a form of evil borne of the sin of pride. As it is said, "Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."

But if she runs for Kyl’s seat that would be the dumbest thing I’ve ever seen. I hope she doesn’t do that.

I really doubt that she is interested in Kyl's seat. She turned down the one MurCOWsky eventually took. In her book, she stated that the Senate was a dead end. And frankly, it would be a demotion. The East Coast Liberal Republicans are dreaming about this and praying.

May be we have another closet romney supporter in our midsts.

Dream on.. Your whole line of argument is lame. But, at least you don't need 20 pages to say it.

Like RINOS Romney and huntsman, or dingy harry reid?

mmmm.. one of these names is not like the others, one of these name just isn't the same. Lets guess.

Lets see, Romney is a flip-flopping Rino, Huntsman is so amazingly RINO that he is likely to win Vermont against Romney, and Harry Reed is a Democrat. Huh. That must be the problem.

But, past that point, you seem to be arguing that all Mormons are the same, closet liberals. Planning to hang your hat on that? Maybe we have another volunteer.

When you readily toss out words like "abuse" and apply them as accusations to Freepers like Elsie, you basically sabotage your own credibility to aptly size up a poster or situation. It's simply inflammatory accusatory rhetoric meant to serve as an ad hominent attack against the person.

And, we have another volunteer named Colofornian, who joins Elsie and Tennessee Nana in an anti-Mormon smear campaign. As this isn't a debate about the facts, but rather pointing that this behavior is loathsome, boorish and reprehensible; I have also pointed out, that such behavior could become even actionable.

I would be as delighted as the next person here to see Mitt Romney defeated quickly and handily, but this campaign of trashing Mormonism to trash him is below contempt, below our standards and has no place on FR. I am no stranger to religious intolerance, bigotry and libelous statements. If I expect folks to say no to words like Christ Killer, or crap like that, then letting you call people child rapists and then associate that with Glenn or Mitt as a reason to hate these people. It is not acceptable.

Calling me a liberal because I use words you don't like is laughable. That is ok, bizarre but what ever floats your boat. I leave it to the readers to make up their own mind whether using the word animus automatically makes a person a liberal. :)

It is not an ad hominem attack to state that someone is posting libelous attacks and expressing pure religious bigotry on this site. Or when people have a pattern of hijacking threads with inappropriate or off topic posts. Such as Glenn Beck is a Mormon, lets trash Mormons. This tread was about Presidential Candidates traveling to Israel to attend an event. There are other threads where a discussion like this may be appropriate, but here it was not, and under any circumstances, Tennessee Nana's post was inappropriate.

Please take time to read the rules of the road around here. They are posted on the very first page, the home page.

Please enjoy our forum, but also please remember to use common courtesy when posting and refrain from posting personal attacks, profanity, vulgarity, threats, racial or religious bigotry, or any other materials offensive or otherwise inappropriate for a conservative family audience. Free Republic is a non-commercial site. Please do not post advertising, solicitations, spam or any other commercial messages. Do not spam us with links to your own site. No one likes spam.

Free Republic is a site dedicated to the concerns of traditional grassroots conservative activists. We're here to discuss and advance our conservative causes in a more or less liberal-free environment. We're not here to debate liberals. We do not want our pages filled with their arrogant, obnoxious, repugnant bile. Liberals, usurpers, and other assorted malcontents are considered unwelcome trolls on FR and their accounts and or posts will be summarily dismissed at the convenience of the site administrators.

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That hopey changey thing is getting really thin. He doubles down, and adds a threat. Got to make my brothers and sisters wonder huh. Well, perhaps.

The well received bit, frankly, I don't get that. Is this because they weren't mooning him?

But you are FAR over reaching common decency by saying she HATES the individuals who have been DECEIVED by MORMONism.

Well, as she names people and disparages them specifically because of their faith rather than their actions, I can't see any other position to take. Her point is not that these people are lamentably deluded, it is that these people are inherently untrustworthy and evil.

Ultimately, my complaint against Nana is that she is acting as a Troll. And, you will see that there is another complaint about her activities in this thread. Ultimately, your response has completely Hijacked the thread making it about Mormonism, rather than being about the proposed topic, whether Presidential Candidates should attend an event in Israel, no matter how important.

You unlike Tennessee Nana bother to substantiate some of your arguments, but ultimately, you resorted to baiting and spamming the thread. This behavior destroys the continuity and meaning of discussions. You are certainly welcome to your opinions and making them known but you are not welcome to abuse the rest of us in the process.

Tennessee Nana is guilty of a much greater offense as she offered a pure libel against the Mormon faith and specifically pointed this at Glenn Beck and Mitt Romney, making the fallacious argument of guilt by association as well.

Mormon's are very often staunch Conservatives and as such they are welcome to post and participate here, and they are due the expectation that people will not defame or libel their faith or themselves. The truth is an absolute shield for libel but frankly, the presence of a defined animus is what takes such behavior from boorishness to an offense that can be prosecuted for compensation in terms of cash. This is a direct threat to FR, as well as, providing examples of general craziness and bigotry that if we swapped out one religion and put in another it would be obvious that such statements cross the line.

When Joey Smith had sex with Helen Mar Kimball she was only 14 years old

That is child rape

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent

In the United States, by the 1880s, most states set the age of consent at ten or twelve, and in one state, Delaware, the age of consent was only seven. A New York Times article states that it was still aged seven in Delaware in 1895. [4] Women reformers and advocates of social purity initiated a campaign in 1885 to petition legislators to raise the legal age of consent to at least sixteen, with ultimate goal to raise the age to eighteen; the campaign was successful: by 1920, almost all states had raised the age of consent to sixteen or eighteen.[5][6]

I am not saying that this was good or proper, but at the time it was certainly not considered child rape. Make sure you know your facts before making random charges that Offend and Stigmatize members of a religion based on behaviors of people other than themselves, especially if you are completely wrong and now you are defaming these folks.

I liked Beck for quite awhile there...until he started to merge his religious points into the mix...and thereafter he was more and more fruity for my taste...much to my disappointment. Beck reminds me of Tom Cruise when he gets all wired and frets out...and it doesn't take much for either to do that.

I agree with you in many ways except that he keeps hitting the darn nail on the head. He tends to be Mr. gloom and doom and I don't go for that thing so much, but I truly believe his cries into the darkness have been saving this country in many ways and his work is on balance a blessing.

I have as he recommends, done my own research and he very often errs on the side of sunshine and happiness when you dig in.. His people do make mistakes and it can be pretty irritating, but he doesn't claim to be perfect and at least it points to into a direction where you might get a clue.

How the heck did he predict this crap storm with Israel so well???? He goes and organizes one of the biggest events ever to be held in Israel as a pure show of support and makes all of these plans and then boom.. Obama kicks everyone into high gear making Glen seem like he is being fed their script or something. The rates they are charging are very good.. for what you get but it is alot of money and alas, I don't have thousands of dollars running around to spare.. so I am crying in my beer.. about this.

Thanks.. very interesting link

We, of course, can disagree. And I’m not nearly always right.

It makes the world go around. I am scheming on how to afford make it an even bigger deal by one, two or perhaps a plane load. I have wanted to do this for some time anyway.

As this moves forward, perhaps Obama will have his nose so ground into it that he backs up and then this whole deal with be pointless, but I doubt it.

There are going to be observances in the US hopefully, and you may choose to participate in one of them. Just understand, that protesting this opportunity to say me too.. is like saying not me. Regardless of whether it is Glenn Beck or Trump or Hannity or my aunt Penny's dog spot who is making the event happen.

This is right before the UN is to consider recognizing Palestine as a State, and this is something I have been assured by many sources will pass the main assembly and will be approved or not due to the US's veto. This is the way it is. You have to decide what you feel needs to be done here and go with that.

Jews who practice Judaism, do not vote for Democrats!

Obama has finally made that clear to everyone but the most committed socialists. Anyone else has to get this clue or be clueless.

Understand that what is really going on is that Obama is holding a knife to the throats of Jews who's support is wavering that if they don't cough up cash and support for him this cycle Israel is gone.. Its the Chicago way.

There’s a place for us to stand for Israel and it is in our political system here on our own ground.

Then do that. I think a bit of grandstanding is just exactly what the situation calls for. But, it is going to take it all. It took a massive display of Veterans at the Vietnam War Memorial back in 2007 to send the message to Congress that this was a different day and age than the Vietnam War, and regardless of what you say, big statements have big meaning. This is why we have learned to get out in the streets once in a while.. to get the point across.

As a Jewish Republican, I too have long been frustrated by the irrational, self-defeating, political behavior of too many Jews in the United States. Things are changing slowly though in our direction. Remember that addictions (political as well as chemical) are tough to break.

Tonight is going to be very interesting. We will see which way the wind blows but judging from the back chatter folks are in shock at the moment... judging from the response this is a lead balloon, but who knows.. we will see.

And doubly not for foreign rallies organized by Beck. He’d scare away more mushy middle voters than he’d attract, so it doesn’t help the cause.

Spoken like a real politician, lets not rally for Israel in August and watch the UN declare Palestine a state with the 1967 borders with Obama's approval. Because, perhaps that is the way to win an election. This is why this little deal is going to take a great deal more courage than you seem to understand.

Only a politician with courage to stand with Israel regardless of whether Beck is there or what load of crap storm comes with it.. will be there.. so don't look for Mitt to be anywhere near the Jerusalem during this event, unless every other candidate is there, then he will come.. along with TPaw and all of the other hangers on.

So people had better look closer at the religion a candidate practices.....and if your smart you realize that during an election the candidates themsleves more than mention their faith. Heck even Trump did! They would not mention their faith if it wasn't important to them that you consider that.

I would not vote for Romney because he is a RINO. I like Beck because he has performed a service to all of America as great personal risk. I have friends who are Mormon and they are truly good people and I know people who are Mormons who are just about as interesting as pond scum. Bigotry is when you lose all perspective between understanding a person's character and lump them into a group. We are reasonably cautious about folks who belong to faiths like Mormonism especially when you consider some of the things in their teachings. Folks point to the Bible and say many of the same things. But, thats not the point.

If Romney weren't a flip flopping say anything to get elected RINO, I would consider him. It took me a while to get his number during the 2008 cycle but now, I am pretty certain that I would only vote for someone like him for the same reason I voted for McCain.

So, I intend to work not to be forced into that sort of choice this time. But, I will not do it by BASHING someone for their faith. And, you shouldn't either. It something to note, part of the puzzle but that has to be all.

I don't know if you just got yourself invited off of FR or not, but I did report you as you managed to completely cross the line in that post accusing folks of child rape and more. But, what ever the doctrines and tenants of a faith may be, we owe respect to observing the behavior and life of the individual rather than to treat them in accordance with our perception of their commitments or belonging to a specific group or race. When someone attacks folks based on the criteria that they are a Mormon or a Jew or even a Muslim alone we call that bigotry. This is not part of rational discussion.

It is easy to slip from what we think is love to what is actually blind hatred. Please think. Your goals may be laudable, but your means are not.

Remember the first rule of holes before going any further.

Oops.. that just about digs it deep enough.

Oh I am so glad you admitted that

In my last post I decided against saying this...

But since your latest clarification, I can now say with proof from your own words...

You appear to be coming from the stance of an anti-Christian...

and a rabid RomneyBot...

That is the big difference between myself and you. You don't seem bother with silly things like evidence or rational thought. And, frankly, you a pricking the wrong prickly pear to play with.

Anyone around here who knows me knows just how foolish this screed was of yours was. Anyone else is invited to find the truth or learn how to. It is part of what it takes to fully participate in FR.

Remember the first rule of holes before going any further.

Kid do you mindread much ???

Where in this thread have I mentioned Romney or the religion of mormonism ???.

Meanwhile are you attempting to violate my 1st Amendment rights ???

First, understand that is it is easy peasy to look at the history of your posts around here and see them all and get an idea of where someone is coming from. This is important when confronting someone who is acting trollishly. Folks who have been around for a while take the time to discover who they are talking to and you have a history that is extensive and clear. Your comments are squarely within the mainstream for the most part, but it comes clear that you have a central point and that is hatred for Mormonism and all of its adherents rather than specific disapproval of this Candidate or that person. Anyone can check this out for themselves.

You have your first Amendment rights and no one is threatening anything. Just giving you a word to the wise. What you do with it is up to you.