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Posts by Colofornian

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  • Professor at Pontifical University of the Holy Cross in Rome-Islamic State not un-Islamic model is..

    10/07/2014 7:55:34 PM PDT · 1 of 14
    ALL: Please note: Had to excerpt headline...too long for character allowance...Full headline is:
    Professor at Pontifical University of the Holy Cross in Rome: Islamic State not un-Islamic, “model is Muhammad himself”
  • Is Islam a destructive force in the world? [O'Reilly]

    10/07/2014 8:54:48 AM PDT · 1 of 41
  • Freeper Tminusfour passed away today

    08/07/2014 2:48:08 AM PDT · 57 of 93
    Colofornian to reaganaut; All
    A "revisit" to a T Minus Four post from March 22, 2011: T Minus Four, three years ago:

    I grew up in a church where the music was mostly what we kids called "vampire movie music", and there was a lot of monotone "singing/chanting" and a lot of lip-synching. It feels so good to be able to tell God how I REALLY feel. If I want to throw my head back and lift my arms up, I do. If I want to sit down and cry or put my face in my hands, I do. If I want to clap, I just do it. It's just between Me and HIM. Who cares what somebody else thinks, I love Him!

    (And now T Minus Four CONTINUES to tell God how she feels...worshiping Him in His Presence!)

    Thank you Lord, for sharing her with us!

  • Institutional from the start #LukeActs2014

    08/03/2014 8:03:51 PM PDT · 10 of 19
    Colofornian to The Grammarian; All
    Acts 6:2 is simply talking about more specialized delegation.

    Jesus Himself sent out The 72 -- delegating them to a specific action.

    That was no "institutional" act.

  • Magic Underwear & Magic Food

    08/03/2014 2:52:35 PM PDT · 494 of 554
    Colofornian to Albion Wilde
    Someone once researched how when people are lying, they use a lot of words.

    (By this "logic," authors are the biggest liars...especially repeat authors)

  • Magic Underwear & Magic Food

    08/02/2014 9:49:13 PM PDT · 469 of 554
    Colofornian to Lizavetta
    No one is saying you may not post an opinion about Mormonism or should not or can not. Fly at it. I am questioning your vitriol about their beliefs. Key word question. Why does what they believe bother you?

    (If all Christian church bodies took this 'tude you and other FReepers on this thread seem to exhibit, we'd call all the missionaries home from the relatively "non-hostile" areas & only send them to hostile areas)

    I guess you can call it the "new dualism"...where spiritual warfare is nary a thought...and only harm & potential harm to the body is to be concerned about...

    Me? I try to take our cultural cue from a certain "Lord" named Jesus Christ...I mean, who are we to follow when it comes to setting cultural priorities? Jesus?

    Here's Jesus:

    "I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him." (Luke 12:4-5)

    So does Jesus say, "fear the bomber-terrorists?" (No)
    Does Jesus say "fear the 'atrocity-mongers?'" (No)
    Does Jesus say "fear the be-headers?" (No)
    Instead, does He say to exercise fear of the One who has authority to cast somebody into hell? (Yes)
    So, indeed, our "fear" is on behalf of those who are placing their eternal spiritual lives at risk. Of course, this includes Muslims as well...thankfully...not everybody has ADD or ADHD in this the Silent Generation which fought WWII, some can multi-task on multiple frontlines!

    As the apostle Paul was leaving the church of Ephesus, he warned them with this high-priority alert:

    "I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears." (Acts 20:29-31)

    Paul's cultural priority? (Defend against the false disciples who will proselytize the flock and draw away men unto themselves!)

    Tell me something, Lizavetta: If you did something tearfully night and day for three years, do you think it's rather important? So what? We're just to conclude, "Oh, the man who contributed a good chunk to the New Testament -- what does he know about cultural priorities?"

    So the question comes right back atcha: Why does it seem to bother you what others believe (& post) about Mormon doctrine?

  • Magic Underwear & Magic Food

    08/02/2014 9:17:55 PM PDT · 467 of 554
    Colofornian to Lizavetta; greyfoxx39; All
    ... magic underwear and magic food...Why do you care that Mormons believe this? Are they harming you in any way at all?

    Well, let's apply your own "First Principles" to your questions:

    Why do YOU care what I believe about what Mormons believe? Am I harming you in any way at all?

    (ALL: You see the lack of consistency by even so-called conservative posters these days?)

    The "Mantra" uttered is two-fold: If somebody isn't harming you personally, why critique them?

    (All as they critique others -- posters on this thread, for example -- who aren't harming them!)

    Yet they fail to apply their own operating Principles to themselves!

    If, as Lizavetta implies, we aren't to care about the details of other religion's beliefs, then why bother to care about what posters say in their commentary details about these beliefs?

    If we take Lizavetta's advice, we are to simply ignore most religious expressions (in this case, most of the Mormon doctrinal expressions).

    Yet she/he can't see to ignore our religious expressions about the Mormon beliefs on this thread?

    Tell us, Lizavetta: Why is Mormon doctrine ignore-worthy, but apparently our comments about Mormon doctrine isn't ignore-worthy?...and, in fact, you're paying a fair amount of attention to them?

    (Can you spell h-y-p-o-c-r-i-s-y re: practicing the mantras you preach?)

  • Magic Underwear & Magic Food

    08/02/2014 9:08:54 PM PDT · 466 of 554
    Colofornian to Jeff Head; IronJack; Trapped Behind Enemy Lines; BigEdLB; Jacquerie; BeauBo; Reddy; Dr. Ursus; ...
    I am LDS...I have posted, on numerous occassions, my own sinccere and steadfast witness for Jesus Christ in an effort to help balance the scales.

    ALL: Jeff Head's Mormon years have included the 1960s, and the 1970s, and part of the 1980s when he regarded Lds "apostle" Bruce McConkie as his "apostle" and spokesman for the official Mormon church. (McConkie died in 1985).

    Here's just one tidbit of what McConkie said about the "Jesus" Christians worship:

    "And virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pg.269).

    So McConkie concluded that...
    ...The Christ of Christianity is...
    And that He is "mythical" BECAUSE Christians regard Him as "uncreated"...
    ...and "three in one" with the Father and Holy Spirit.'s what's interesting.

    Apparently it was A-OK for Jeff Head's Mormon "apostle" to lambast millions of Christians about their belief in Christ.

    But if Christians dare say anything about the supernaturally regarded underwear worn by Mormons, that's somehow detrimental to the "steadfast witness for Jesus Christ" -- which apparently must be a different Jesus if the Mormon "apostle's" Jesus in created and isn't One with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

  • Magic Underwear & Magic Food

    08/02/2014 8:51:38 PM PDT · 464 of 554
    Colofornian to Lizavetta; 4everontheRight; bethelgrad; dirtymac; greyfoxx39; All
    Last I checked the Mormons aren't much involved into the beheading and slaughter racket so who cares what their beliefs are.

    Ah...such wonderful logic.

    By this "Logic" -- anybody attempting to hold somebody accountable for say, verbal somehow "off-base" because you can ALWAYS point to rapists...abortionists...people forcing pre-teens to become rebels in Africa...pedophiles, etc as "worse" folk.

    Truly mind-boggling.

    By all means, open up the prisons and release everybody but the death-row inmates by such sage reasoning.

  • Magic Underwear & Magic Food

    08/02/2014 8:47:37 PM PDT · 463 of 554
    Colofornian to miss marmelstein; greyfoxx39; IronJack; Albion Wilde; dirtymac; bethelgrad; All
    And stop trying to censure me.

    Did you mean "censor" or "censure"?

    If you meant, "censor," kind of a hilarious irony there.

    'Cause that is essentially saying, "Shut up about trying to make me shut up."

    I have to say...based upon my last five posts, I haven't seen so many posters out of touch re: ...
    ...applying their own prescriptive advisements about others' expressions -- themselves...!!!
    ...I mean I don't believe I've EVER seen a single thread exhibiting this kind of pattern to the degree I've seen it on one FR thread!

    It's like people just somehow "don't get it" that when...'re critical toward somebody you perceive as being critical, you're a part of the problem you're preaching against!

    ...if you bash somebody you accuse of bashing, please, doc, heal yourself of "bashitis!"

    Of if you openly judge somebody you think is judging others, please then fill us in why your judgment happens to be so sacrosanct and theirs isn't?

    Did somebody proclaim this "Rank Hypocrisy Weekend" by edict, and I just missed it, or what?

  • Magic Underwear & Magic Food

    08/02/2014 8:31:02 PM PDT · 461 of 554
    Colofornian to bethelgrad; greyfoxx39; All
    ...most of them are patriotic, moral, decent, and clean....and a lot of them vote conservative. Oh, and here’s a big one, they aren’t advocating the destruction of Israel, driving Christians from Iraq, kidnapping girls in Nigeria, beheading infidels, practising female genital mutilation, prenatal holocaust, or advocating open borders....the list goes on. So, let them be. Prusuade them of the truth of the historic Christian faith with gentleness and sound arguments, if you must, but mocking them like this does no good.

    Greyfoxx, if you read her posts, is patriotic, moral, decent, and clean...and she votes conservative. She isn't advocating the destruction of Israel; nor does she advocate driving Christians from Iraq or kidnapping girls from Nigeria; beheading infidels; practicing female genital mutilation; prenatal holocaust; or advocates open borders (the list goes on)

    So Bethelgrad: Let greyfoxx be.

    (Oh, and btw, be sure you mention to Jesus when you see him that mocking the Pharisees as "whitewashed tombstones" and "vipers" (Matthew 23) and children of Satan (John 8) also apparently "doesn't any good" and He should have left well enough alone)

  • Magic Underwear & Magic Food

    08/02/2014 8:26:37 PM PDT · 460 of 554
    Colofornian to dirtymac; greyfoxx39; All
    I am not Mormon but why do you care what they believe? If you really want to see bazaar beliefs look at the Muslim religion. Mormons are not bombing and killing people that do not believe their way.

    Why do YOU care what Greyfoxx39 posts or religiously objects to?

    After all, if you REALLY want to see some people who go over the top in objecting to others' religious practices, take a look at what many Muslim countries do to people who convert to Christianity.

    Greyfoxx doesn't persecute or put in jail or kill others who convert from one religion to another.

    So, I guess, by extension of your own operating principles, you should take your own Rx and move right along.

  • Magic Underwear & Magic Food

    08/02/2014 8:23:06 PM PDT · 459 of 554
    Colofornian to Albion Wilde; greyfoxx39; All
    I grew up with a large Mormon population in our area. Socially and politically conservative, reliably patriotic and republican, which aligns with the general thrust of this Forum. So why bash their religion? They are not forcing the author of this thread to belong to it or believe in it. Freedom is about live and let live among people who will do the same.

    Greyfoxx39, having been a Mormon, has worshipped and live among them. She is socially and politically conservative; she is reliably patriotic and Republican, which aligns with the general thrust of this Forum. So why bash her thread and her posts? She is not forcing any poster to read the thread, is she?

    And therefore, if as you say, "freedom is about live and let live among people who will do the same," then if that's your operative philosophy and ethic...why didn't you practice it?

    You could either bypassed this forum in its entirety; or, if you chose to comment, you could have done so without being critical of Greyfoxx, right?

    If to "live and let live" religiously is where it's at, then why your open religious hypocrisy is not applying that ethic to Greyfoxx?

    What are we to believe? Your mantra or your practice that undermines it?

  • Magic Underwear & Magic Food

    08/02/2014 8:17:54 PM PDT · 458 of 554
    Colofornian to IronJack; greyfoxx39; Jeff Head; Elsie; All
    Why single out Mormonism for your bash-fest? There are a lot of religions that believe some pretty strange things. If Mormons are so misguided, God will be their judge. I daresay He doesn’t need any help from you.

    Why single out Greyfoxx for your bash-fest response to her? There are a lot of posters that believe some pretty orthodox things. If Greyfoxx39 is so misguided for pointing out where unorthodox departs from orthodox, then God will be her judge. I daresay He doesn't need any help from you.

    There. See how your line of reasoning works?

    Except if that was such stellar "divine" wisdom applicable to all -- including yourself -- you obviously in an epic being able to down your own medicinal prescriptions.

    In logic, this is simply call self-refuting rhetoric.

    And in religious discussions, this kind of open inconsistency is rank hypocrisy.

    (And it's further shameful, therefore, to have fairly balanced Mormons come into the thread and "high five" comments like this ... thereby reinforcing such hypocritical commentary)

  • IRS worker suspended for pro-Obama activities

    07/10/2014 11:20:17 AM PDT · 8 of 26
    Colofornian to afraidfortherepublic

    Knowing this admin it will be 100 paid days...and 3 month plus vacation reward for a job well done...just couched as a “suspension”

  • University of Utah Tweaks Fight Song Called Sexist ['our coeds are the fairest' revised]

    07/09/2014 5:18:52 AM PDT · 1 of 11
    From the article: The University of Utah is tweaking its official fight song amid concerns the former version was sexist. University President David Pershing announced the changes Wednesday. The new song replaces “our coeds are the fairest” with “our students are the finest.” The phrase “no other gang of college men” becomes “no rival band of college fans.” But the new version doesn’t officially change the lyrics from “I’m a Utah man” to “I’m a Utah fan.” Both are listed as options, allowing singers to choose which phrase they sing. Officials say fans may still choose to sing the former version.
  • Guest Post: Ignoring Logic And The Misrepresentation Of Ordain Women [Non-OW questions Lds leaders]

    07/07/2014 9:17:02 PM PDT · 2 of 14
    Colofornian to All
    Please note: To "ordain" one in the Mormon Church is not equivalent of "ordaining" leaders in other churches.

    Example: In the Mormon Church, 12-year-old boys can be ordained to the Aaronic Priesthood.

    Secondly, the Mormon Church has no professional "clergy" or priesthood. All bishops are lay people.

  • Guest Post: Ignoring Logic And The Misrepresentation Of Ordain Women [Non-OW questions Lds leaders]

    07/07/2014 9:11:39 PM PDT · 1 of 14
    From the blog: ...I suggest that you read through some of the FAQs and profiles on the Ordain Women website. I suggest this not as a way of proselyting, but as a means to an honest understanding of their actual position. No agreement is required, but integrity is...

    From the blog: As someone who does not even support Ordain Women’s clarion call, and speaking to those who do not support Ordain Women, I can see problems with the way Kate’s excommunication was handled. First, a man who did not have current ecclesiastical stewardship conducted her court and excommunicated her. There is an order to the Church and it was violated. Her lack of presence at the court is irrelevant when the entire premise of its orchestration is not even valid, according the Church’s own handbook. We can talk about the timeline and who said what when at this point, but that is really tangential to the issue of what she was actually doing and the legitimacy of her Church disciplinary court in the first place. Second, she was not excommunicated for teaching something false. Since women are already utilizing priesthood authority, this is not an apostate teaching—Elder Oaks asked, “What other authority can it be?” in the last General Conference.

  • Recent Utah sex abuse cases involving teachers, leaders [20 cases involving educators since 2009]

    07/05/2014 12:50:00 PM PDT · 8 of 9
    Colofornian to All
    From the last graph of the article: • Timothy William Bothell, 44, a member of an LDS stake high council in Centerville, sexually abused one girl and exposed himself to another. The girls were 11 and 13 and were friends of his family. He pleaded guilty to attempted aggravated sex abuse of a child and was sentenced in May to two years in jail but may qualify for work release after one year.
  • Former part-time BYU instructor charged with sexual abuse

    07/05/2014 10:01:39 AM PDT · 12 of 15
    Colofornian to teppe; All
    So there’s BYU part time faculty member who’s a pervert? ... just a part-time faculty member teaching a non-religious subject?...a non-religious study part time faculty member at BYU?

    (Oh, I "get it"...part-time instructors aren't held to the same rigorous moral standards that "full-timers" are, eh, Teppe? And if they don't teach "religion," less is expected of them criminal-standard-wise as well?)

    Oh. And if a BYU student subject to BYU's honor code (not to mention societal criminal codes) happens to NOT be "majoring" in anything "religious" ...or if that student is but a "part-time" student ... those codes either don't apply or those students aren't expected to "measure up" to them.

    Classic statements, Tep.

    Gotta be one of the worse immoral statements you've ever made, as you attempt to excuse away the criminal conduct of one even you concede to be "a pervert".

  • Recent Utah sex abuse cases involving teachers, leaders [20 cases involving educators since 2009]

    07/05/2014 5:40:52 AM PDT · 1 of 9
    From the article: SALT LAKE CITY — Since 2009, Utah has seen more than 20 cases of teachers and others in positions of authority accused of having some type of sexual contact with a minor.
  • BYU professor shines light on low numbers of sex assault prosecutions

    07/05/2014 5:34:59 AM PDT · 1 of 7
    From the article: SALT LAKE CITY — Sexual assaults in Utah are going underreported, but the work of a BYU professor is helping to convince lawmakers and law enforcement to pay more attention to prosecuting such cases. Julie Valentine, a sexual assault nurse examiner and nursing professor at BYU, found that only 6 percent of cases in Salt Lake County have been prosecuted. Valentine examines rape victims and collects forensic evidence for cases. As she examined victims for prosecution, she would not hear back about any follow-up and wanted to find out why. “We would do these examinations — we’d do hundreds — and it was rare that we would hear anything about the cases. I only testified in one case,” Valentine said. Valentine attended a forensic conference in Puerto Rico, where Rebecca Campbell, whose research focuses on violence against women, spoke on prosecution outcomes when a sexual assault nurse examiner program exists in a community. “I went to the conference and was blown away and thought, ‘We have to do something about this,’” Valentine said. She, with the help of two other students and a BYU ORCA grant, conducted a study on prosecution outcomes with sexual assault nurse examiners throughout the state of Utah. She examined 270 random study cases out of a total of 1,657 cases in Utah, spanning from the year 2003 to 2011. The outcome of the study was published in 2013. In that time span, only 6 percent of all sexual assault cases were prosecuted. That number is supported by a recent review in Salt Lake City that found police there had a backlog of more than 600 rape examination kits. Connecting DNA in the rape kits to known offenders tracked by law enforcement is often the first step to prosecution...According to Valentine’s study, the most commonly written reasons for not screening a case were because the victim did not want to pursue, was unavailable for contact, the suspect was unknown, or the victim would not cooperate.
  • Former part-time BYU instructor charged with sexual abuse

    07/05/2014 5:14:44 AM PDT · 1 of 15
    From the article: An arraignment hearing has been set for a former BYU-UVU part-time faculty member charged with sexual abuse. Michio Zushi, 55, is set to appear on July 14 on charges of aggravated sexual abuse of a child after the victim recently came forward to talk to investigators. According to 4th District Court records, Zushi inappropriately touched her beneath her clothing. The incidents occurred between August 2010 and August 2011, and police arrested Zushi in March. Zushi taught Japanese calligraphy at both BYU and UVU...
  • Provo High teacher accused of sexual abuse headed to trial

    07/05/2014 5:09:12 AM PDT · 1 of 10
    From the news article: PROVO – A trial date has been set for a Provo High School teacher accused of sexually abusing a 17-year-old student. Donald Bills, 54, has been charged with one count of forcible sodomy and three counts of object rape, all first-degree felonies; and two counts of forcible sexual abuse, a second-degree felony. During a court hearing Thursday afternoon, a five-day trial was scheduled for December. Bills was arrested and charged in January after he and the teen were interviewed. Provo police said in January that someone viewed a text between Bills and the student and reported it to school officials, who contacted police. An investigation followed. Police records indicate that in an interview with police at his home, Bills admitted to the relationship and told police he had engaged in sexual acts with the student on multiple occasions.
  • Wife-killing Mormon doctor Martin MacNeill found guilty of sexually assaulting daughter

  • St. George Utah Temple: 1st operating temple [Dead 'Founding Fathers...appeared' in Mormon temple?]

    07/04/2014 10:57:51 AM PDT · 61 of 111
    Colofornian to Colofornian; truth_seeker; All

    (And the worst thing about J. Reuben Clark’s pacifism was its timing...he was one of the top three Mormon leaders during WWII...and was still in that role during the Korean conflict)

  • St. George Utah Temple: 1st operating temple [Dead 'Founding Fathers...appeared' in Mormon temple?]

    07/04/2014 10:41:03 AM PDT · 59 of 111
    Colofornian to truth_seeker; All
    My father was a Mormon when at age 17 he enlisted in the United States Marine Corps, and was also on the day he was seriously wounded, after 45 days in combat on Okinawa. He left that church in order to marry my mother...

    (Good for him...and for your Mom and her family that encouraged him to take that exodus step)

    (And also good that he fought for our contrast, look at high-level Mormon leaders like J. Reuben Clark, a "first president" counselor to more than one Mormon "prophet" for 27 years to two Lds "prophets": “War and Peace in Our Time: Mormon Perspectives” [Lds Pacifists alive and well])

  • St. George Utah Temple: 1st operating temple [Dead 'Founding Fathers...appeared' in Mormon temple?]

    07/04/2014 10:33:20 AM PDT · 58 of 111
    Colofornian to null and void; Tennessee Nana; freedomlover; All
    Is this the Mormon “christ” who, after dying on the cross for our sins, and imploring us to love one another, then hopped over to another continent and killed a bunch of people? My Christ is not a killer. I suppose we just differ on that one. But I’m not going to stop calling it out as blasphemy. (FreedomLover, post #24)

    So the guy who shows up in the End Times and kicks Satan’s butt and kills vast numbers of his minions is not your Christ? (Null and Void, post #28)

    According to the Mormons those “vast numbers” killed were men, women and children in Central America when their jesus visited that area during his 40 days after sweating and bleeding for them in the garden..... (Tennessee Nana, post #36)

    I missed that passage in the book of Revelation. Indeed I have searched that book in vain for any reference to the New World. Please cite the passage where the returned Jesus with a two edged sword in his mouth slaughtered anyone in Central America. Doubtless freedomlover will have a chance to re-think his position about not worshiping that Jesus should you do so? (Null and Void, Post #49)

    you have to read the Mormon religious books to get that story.. (TN, post #52)

    Perhaps your Bible has a different Final Battle? One that involves tea and crumpets, singing Kumbaya, and all agreeing to live and let live? (Null and Void, Post #56)

    Null and Void, #1, there's an old saying:

    Jesus died on the cross, but Satan got nailed.

    The Son of God chose to defeat Satan by the Way of the Cross. That's what's so glorious about Him...NOT by an initial show of force.

    Now, does that mean the "clean-up detail" at the end won't include any measure of force? No But #2 -- you greatly confuse the timing of your comments. The LAST thing we'd expect from the Jesus-on-the-cross would be to rip His hands/wrists free from the nails and begin wiping out entire communities...which is what the Book of Mormon Jesus did:

    For those who have a Book of Mormon, you can turn to 3 Nephi chapters 8 and 9 and read the Mormon leader intro to these two chapters: Chapter 8: Tempests, earthquakes, fires, whirlwinds, and physical upheavals attest to the crucifixion of Christ – Many people are destroyed – Darkness covers the land for three days—Those who remain bemoan their fate.

    Chapter 9: In the darkness the voice of Christ proclaims the destruction of many people and cities for their wickedness...

    Now we need to note something here: The Bible does proclaim an earthquake occurring upon Jesus' death. But it wasn't a scene of destruction; in fact, just the opposite:

    The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people. 54 When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, “Surely he was the Son of God!”

    The Bible knows of no massive destruction accompanying the crucifixion -- or of a Jesus voice pronouncing the destruction of many people and cities! This is pure myth, introduced by Mormons in the Book of Mormon.

    So...what kind of massive “Gospel destruction” does this “restored Mormon gospel” present? What kind of a violent Mormon jesus is this?

    When the Mormon jesus dies, he unleashes punishment and levels 16 cities, killing an estimated 70,000- 90,000 people (see 3 Nephi 8 and 3 Nephi 9).

    Yes, there was judgment on the cross!
    Yes, it was terrible!
    But the real Jesus absorbed all of that judgment and terror -- our very sins -- there on the cross!

    Perhaps too many LDS & RLDS alike ONLY see the Book of Mormon Easter judgment upon people! The week that followed the Book of Mormon jesus’ resurrection, was a terrible 4 days or so!

    No wonder many Mormons want to stay away from the cross and what immediately happened according to the Joseph Smith version of events:
    * No-Cross Protocol ["New" Mormon tradition]
    * Sunstone speaker attempts to explain LDS 'aversion' to cross [published by Mormon church owned Mormon Times]

    The Biblical Jesus came to be our righteousness (1 Cor. 1:30); the Book of Mormon jesus came to search for mere human-produced righteousness (3 Nephi 9:11)
    The Biblical Jesus came to see that they would have life (John 10:10); the Book of Mormon jesus came to bring down destruction (3 Nephi 9:12) and ensure that people would "howl" in that destruction (3 Nephi 8:23)
    The Biblical Jesus came to ensure people would have abundant life (John 10:10); the Book of Mormon jesus came to ensure people would be in "continual...mourning" (3 Nephi 8:23)
    The Biblical Jesus came to be the Light of the world (John 1:9; 8:12; 9:5); the Book of Mormon jesus came to yield complete darkness for three days (3 Nephi 8:23)

    And this is on the up & up (if you know what I mean by "up"):

    Mormon version of Jesus speaking post-resurrection:
    city Zarahemla: I burned with fire, and the inhabitants thereof [3 Nephi 9:3; cf. 3 Nephi 8:8, 24)
    city Moroni: I caused to be sunk in the depths of the sea, and the inhabitants thereof to be drowned. [3 Nephi 9:4; cf. 3 Nephi 8:9]
    city Moronihah: have I covered with earth, and the inhabitants thereof, to hide their iniquities and their abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints shall not come any more unto me against them. (3 Nephi 9:5)
    city Gilgal: have I caused to be sunk, and the inhabitants thereof to be buried up in the depths of the earth; [3 Nephi 9:6]
    cities Onihah, Mocum, and Jerusalem: waters have I caused to come up in the stead thereof, to hide their wickedness and abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints shall not come up any more unto me against them. [3 Nephi 9:7]
    cities Gadiandi, Gadiomnah, Jacob, and Gimgimno: all these have I caused to be sunk, and made hills and valleys in the places thereof; and the inhabitants thereof have I buried up in the depths of the earth, to hide their wickedness and abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints should not come up any more unto me against them. [3 Nephi 9:8]
    city Jacobugath: have I caused to be burned with fire because of their sins and their wickedness, which was above all the wickedness of the whole earth, because of their secret murders and combinations; for it was they that did destroy the peace of my people and the government of the land; therefore I did cause them to be burned, to destroy them from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints should not come up unto me any more against them. [3 Nephi 9:9]
    cities Laman, Josh, Gad, Kishkumen: have I caused to be burned with fire, and the inhabitants thereof, because of their wickedness in casting out the prophets, and stoning those whom I did send to declare unto them concerning their wickedness and their abominations. [3 Nephi 9:10]

    In the true gospel Jesus is entombed.
    In the Mormon “restored gospel", the mass of people in Moronihah is the emphasis of entombment, having been covered with an entire mountain by the Mormon jesus! (3 Nephi 8:10)
    On Easter week! The other cities were all either sunk by the Mormon jesus, or horrifically burned to death, plus for added emphasis, ”many great destructions have I caused to come upon this land...” (3 Nephi 9:12)

    The true gospel: "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." (Bible, Mark 2:17)

    The Mormon Easter version of this: 11 And because they did cast them all out, that there were NONE RIGHTEOUS AMONG THEM, I did send down fire and destroy them, that their wickedness and abominations might be hid from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints whom I sent among them might not cry unto me from the ground against them. [3 Nephi 9:11]
    Now if the destruction of all these Book of Mormon “cities” wasn’t enough of an “Easter tale” for Smith, here’s what he said went on in immediate days following Jesus’ resurrection:
    3 Nephi 9:12:
    12 And many great destructions have I caused to come upon this land
    3 Nephi 8:
    6 And there was also a great and terrible tempest; and there was terrible thunder, insomuch that it did shake the whole earth as if it was about to divide asunder.
    7 And there were exceedingly sharp lightnings, such as never had been known in all the land.
    11 And there was a great and terrible destruction in the land southward.
    12 But behold, there was a more great and terrible destruction in the land northward; for behold, the whole face of the land was changed, because of the tempest and the whirlwinds, and the thunderings and the lightnings, and the exceedingly great quaking of the whole earth;
    13 And the highways were broken up, and the level roads were spoiled, and many smooth places became rough.
    15 And there were some cities which remained; but the damage thereof was exceedingly great, and there were many in them who were slain.
    16 And there were some who were carried away in the whirlwind; and whither they went no man knoweth, save they know that they were carried away.
    17 And thus the face of the whole earth became deformed, because of the tempests, and the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the quaking of the earth.
    18 And behold, the rocks were rent in twain; they were broken up upon the face of the whole earth, insomuch that they were found in broken fragments, and in seams and in cracks, upon all the face of the land.
    19 And it came to pass that when the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the storm, and the tempest, and the quakings of the earth did cease—for behold, they did last for about the space of three hours; and it was said by some that the time was greater; nevertheless, all these great and terrible things were done in about the space of three hours—and then behold, there was darkness upon the face of the land.
    20 And it came to pass that there was thick darkness upon all the face of the land, insomuch that the inhabitants thereof who had not fallen could feel the vapor of darkness;
    21 And there could be no light, because of the darkness, neither candles, neither torches; neither could there be fire kindled with their fine and exceedingly dry wood, so that there could not be any light at all;
    22 And there was not any light seen, neither fire, nor glimmer, neither the sun, nor the moon, nor the stars, for so great were the mists of darkness which were upon the face of the land.
    23 And it came to pass that it did last for the space of three days that there was no light seen; and there was great mourning and howling and weeping among all the people continually; yea, great were the groanings of the people, because of the darkness and the great destruction which had come upon them.
    24 And in one place they were heard to cry, saying: O that we had repented before this great and terrible day, and then would our brethren have been spared, and they would not have been burned in that great city Zarahemla…

    I'm sorry, but Jesus didn't come to make people "howl" in their own destruction (3 Nephi 8:23)...that wasn't his purpose in coming the FIRST time! (Null and Void, Stop confusing His initial purpose in coming with those He may exercise later)

    Jesus said: I am come that they might have LIFE, and that they might have it more abundantly. (John 10:10)

  • St. George Utah Temple: 1st operating temple [Dead 'Founding Fathers...appeared' in Mormon temple?]

    07/04/2014 6:54:55 AM PDT · 6 of 111
    Colofornian to All
    Now, of course, Mormon leaders blame “persecution” as the reasons for these temple failures. But there's problems with that:

    1. Joseph Smith primarily left Kirtland Ohio because the bank he started had failed and he bailed out.
    2. The Mormons would like to blame Missouri mobs for the failure of the temple in Independence, MO, yet even the official Mormon Church curricula, Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual (1981/2000), says that besides the “mobs” another reason existed: ”...AND because the Saints at that time had not kept the commandments as they should (see D&C 105:1-9)” So even Mormon leaders blame the Mormon people!
    3. The Mormons were in the Salt Lake Valley for about 30 years before the St. George temple was dedicated. (What took so long for those early Utah "pioneer Mormons" to be faithful to the Mormon gods' commands?)

  • St. George Utah Temple: 1st operating temple [Dead 'Founding Fathers...appeared' in Mormon temple?]

    07/04/2014 6:53:51 AM PDT · 4 of 111
    Colofornian to All
    From the Mormon temple description: The St. George Utah Temple is the first temple where endowments for the dead were performed.

    They built the temple in Kirtland...The Saints lost the Kirtland Temple—that was to be something of a pattern for that generation. The Church does not have the Kirtland Temple now.” (Lds "apostle" Boyd K. Packer, The Holy Temple, p. 174, Bookcraft, 1980)

    Mr. Packer, what do you mean a “pattern?”

    Packer elaborates:
    * Aug. 3, 1831, Mormons dedicate temple at Independence, Jackson County, Missouri; yet... “The temple was never constructed. When the Saints were expelled from that 1833 the site fell into other hands. Some day...that site will be fully reclaimed and the house of the Lord built as we have been commanded to do it.” (Packer, p. 174) [Wait a minute, Mr. Packer. What do you mean “Some day...?” Isn't Independence, MO, rather “built up” by 2014? Doesn't the Mormon “prophesy” by Joseph Smith, given Sept. 22-23, 1832, portend that “Which city shall be built, BEGINNING at the temple lot...” (Doctrine & Covenants 84:3)...Furthermore, didn't Smith prophesy of this phantom “temple” that: “Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, BEGINNING AT THIS PLACE, EVEN THE PLACE OF THE TEMPLE, WHICH TEMPLE SHALL BE REARED IN THIS GENERATION. FOR VERILY THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT ALL PASS AWAY UNTIL AN HOUSE SHALL BE BUILD UNTO THE LORD... (D&C 84:4-5)...So, Joseph lied in this prophesy? And you, Mr. Packer, deliberately ignore Smith's twice usage of the word “beginning?”]
    * July 3, 1837, ground for a temple was broken at Far West, MO and cornerstones laid for it, 176 years ago today –July 4, 1838. According to Packer: ”Nothing further was done until April 26, 1839, when the Twelve Apostles, in fulfillment of a revelation, quietly held a conference on the temple site and as a gesture rolled a large stone up to one of the corners as a symbol of beginning construction on the temple. The temple, which would have been 110 feet long and 80 feet wide according to the plan, was NEVER built.” [Wait a minute, Mr. Packer. It was never the Mormon god was “into” empty symbolism and aborted “gestures?”]
    * Early 1840s: “Much of what happened at Kirtland was repeated in Nauvoo. We built a temple in Nauvoo. It was destroyed...In Nauvoo the temple was defiled and destroyed.” (Packer, p. 174) [Wait a minute, Mr. Packer! I thought Joseph Smith prophesied on Jan. 19, 1841 that “my servant Joseph and his seed after him {shall} have place in that house, from generation to generation, forever and ever, saith the Lord. And let the name of that house be called Nauvoo House...” (D&C 124: 59-60)...Hmm...I guess phrases like “generation to generation” re: Smith's personal household and “forever and ever” must have different meanings to Mormons and their leaders, eh?]

    Bottom line? Joseph Smith prophesied falsely in D&C 84:3-5 and 124:59-60. A thief who steals a few times is a thief; a murderer who murders a few times is a murderer; and a prophet who prophesies a few times “in the Name of the Lord” is a false prophet!

  • St. George Utah Temple: 1st operating temple [Dead 'Founding Fathers...appeared' in Mormon temple?]

    07/04/2014 6:50:18 AM PDT · 2 of 111
    Colofornian to All
    From the Mormon temple description: The St. George Utah Temple is the first temple where endowments for the dead were performed.

    Yes, and no.

    It was the first completed Mormon temple where that happened.
    And it was the first dedicated Mormon temple where that happened.

    But to show you that a Mormon temple doesn't really need an official “dedication” for that to happen, read from an official Mormon Church Doctrines & Covenants Student Manual (1981, 2000):

    ”The first baptisms for the dead in the uncompleted Nauvoo Temple were initiated Sunday, 21 November 1841 (see History of the Church, 4:454).” (p. 314)

    (Btw, the Mormon “scriptural” root for Mormon temple dedications is Doctrine & Covenants 109 when Joseph Smith dedicated the Kirtland, Ohio temple on March 27, 1836...these days, the LDS Church will hold public “open houses” when a new temple is built; but after the open house, the temple is cleaned literally and “spiritually.” In order for Mormons entering “the threhold of the Lord's house” to “feel thy power” (D&C 109:13), all pagan germs are exorcised with a Smith-like dedication prayer:

    ”And that no unclean thing shall be permitted to come into thy house to pollute it.” (D&C 109:20)

    And that is why no non-Mormons and no Mormons without a temple recommend can enter into a Mormon temple after the open house period; Joseph Smith's temple-segretation prayer tradition is carried on to this very day!

  • St. George Utah Temple: 1st operating temple [Dead 'Founding Fathers...appeared' in Mormon temple?]

    07/04/2014 6:49:54 AM PDT · 1 of 111
    From the Mormon temple description:

    The Founding Fathers of the United States of America appeared twice to Wilford Woodruff in the St. George Utah Temple asking why their temple work had yet not been performed on their behalves. A striking painting depicting this singular event hangs in the temple lobby (That We May be Redeemed by Harold I. Hopkinson).

    Three years ago, I explained this in an FR vanity: Lds Temple Haunted? Did Declaration of Independence signers appear as ghosts to leader? [Vanity]

    Current Lds "apostle" Boyd K. Packer also elaborated on Woodruff's reportedly seeing the ghostly Founding Fathers by citing Woodruff's Sept. 16, 1877 Salt Lake Tabernacle discourse at length. (see You May Claim the Blessings of the Holy Temple by Packer, Bookcraft, 1980, pp. 193-194).

    "Apostle" Packer claims that not only were the Declaration signers present in 1877 in the St. George Utah Temple, but that "the others included nearly every president of the United States." (The Holy Temple, p. 194)

  • 'The people are the ONLY legitimate FOUNTAIN of power'; Congress is but 'creatures of the people'

    07/04/2014 4:58:14 AM PDT · 1 of 1
    From the Vanity:

    "The people are the ONLY legitimate FOUNTAIN of power, and it is from THEM that the constitutional character, under which the several branches of government hold their power, is derived." (The Federalist Papers)

    "For heaven's sake, who are Congress? Are they not the creatures of the people, amenable to them for their conduct and dependent from day to day on their breath?" (George Washington, To William Gordon)

  • Time for new reformation re: understanding of Biblical priesthood, sainthood, & ordination [Vanity]

    07/03/2014 9:10:06 PM PDT · 113 of 170
    Colofornian to editor-surveyor; All
    Tradition has been in place of the Word of God since the mid 4th century. Sunday worship replaced Godly worship officially at the Council of Lao DiCea in 364 AD.

    Sorry, but "tradition" is best exemplified by either God the Father, God the Son, or the Holy Spirit having set a precedent...or God speaking thru a prophet or via His Son.

    And that "precedent" for honoring Sunday didn't first take place; not at occurred on Resurrection Sunday.

  • Oregon school shooting suspect fascinated with guns but was a devoted Mormon, his friends say

    06/30/2014 9:05:17 AM PDT · 38 of 38
    Colofornian to flaglady47
    ...will go to your grave...Are you married to a Mormon woman, or were ever?

    (Never married into Mormonism...but hey, thanks for trying to guess motives on our new FR game show Jeopardy Judgmentalism! as to the question to the answer, "Why you think truth shouldn't be buried")

  • Time for new reformation re: understanding of Biblical priesthood, sainthood, & ordination [Vanity]

    06/28/2014 8:30:02 PM PDT · 52 of 170
    Colofornian to verga; delchiante; All
    The new moon day is tomorrow and will be the first day of His third month [Delchiante]

    How do you write that on checks? [Verga]

    (That's just it, Verga! When you live in the realm of pure spiritual abstractions, as some, you don't even have a checkbook! You don't have a modern-day calendar! You don't a digital cell-phone calendar! You don't call up your friend or relative and say, "Hey, we're arriving on Thursday" -- because, by god, who would dare honor the pagan god "Thor" and his "day" by actually referencing "Thor's day" out loud?)

  • Mormons oust Ordain Women's Kate Kelly over women priests

    06/28/2014 8:01:33 AM PDT · 80 of 81
    Colofornian to Elsie

    Well today is Orrin Porter Rockwell’s bday...born 201 years ago

  • Is Bigfoot traveling through Provo Canyon?

    06/28/2014 6:48:43 AM PDT · 1 of 32
    Provo Canyon, Utah. Home to nearby BYU.

    Here is a four-second interval from the clip -- slowed down and stabelized: Bigfoot Sighting near Sundance Utah slowed down and stabelized (Look to left of screen)

    From the article: PROVO -- On Sunday night, two people were driving on the Alpine Loop above Provo Canyon when suddenly they spotted a large object by the side of the road. They quickly did a U-turn and started recording their search. When they got their video uploaded to a computer, what they saw astounded them. It's not extremely clear, but it looks like a large, dark, figure. Bigfoot? Or something else?

    Well, it does appear to be a large creature beginning to raise up.

    Btw: 2011 posting: The Truth About Mormon Myths [Mormon Bigfoot, White Horse Prophesy, & Nephites alive 2,000+ years]

  • Mormon church sues Winston Blackmore for trademark infringement

    06/28/2014 6:28:56 AM PDT · 74 of 82
    Colofornian to freedomlover; laotzu; ViLaLuz; Elsie; Alex Murphy; svcw; All
    Did you know that the Mormon Christ is also described in the Book of Mormon? Did you know that in the Book of Mormon Christ kills people? I will re-paste my link below. Please understand that my dispute is with a newcomer to Christianity being told that Christ killed people. You may be OK with that, but I think that such is a false teaching and should be called out. To me that is quite different than pointing out the differences between a Baptist and a Methodist. 3 Nephi 9:15 on the LDS site begins with “Chapter 9 - In the darkness, the voice of Christ proclaims the destruction of many people and cities for their wickedness” (FreedomLover)

    And Laotzu's response to this?

    (Like MANY posts to him/her (in many threads), no specific response.)

    Allow me here, then, to post another charts adding clarity. For I deal with documenting the above comment by FreedomLover in #10 of this chart:

    DOCUMENTATION CHART re: 'Another Jesus'

    Questions Distinguishing 'Mormon' jesus from Jesus of Bible Mormon 'Jesus' Jesus of Bible
    1. Was Jesus self-existent from all eternity past? NO: Lds say ALL "intelligences" -- including Jesus -- existed (D&C 93:29) before becoming a "spirit" child born to a divine goddess on a planet near Kolob; yet Joseph Smith could not even keep his story straight here, giving a "revelation" in 1831 that "from all eternity to all eternity, the Great I AM, even Jesus Christ" (D&C 39:1) + Alma 13:9 talks about the "only begotten without beginning of days" I openly dare LDS to forthrightly exegete Doctrine & Covenants 39:1, which says: Hearken and listen to the voice of him who is from all eternity to all eternity, the Great I AM, even Jesus Christ.... What does "from all eternity to all eternity" mean? "The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end. That is good logic...Intelligence is eternal & exists upon a self-existent principle...The first principles of man are self-existent with God." Smith, p. 210 [TofPresidents of the Church] YES: Bible: Before Abraham was, "I AM" (John 8:58) ["I AM" is a divine Name first introduced in Exodus 3:14 and means, "The Self-Existing One"...THE Jesus is self-existent and didn't need a "mom god" on a planet near Kolob to "progress" in His life. Mormons flat-out deny the teaching found in John 1:1, 18 and Micah 5:2, because they claim Jesus was part of a past creation process – (obviously if Jesus’ Mormon “father” was once a man, then Jesus was at some point “less” in stature at that “time”) * "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...the Word became flesh and dwelt among us [Jesus]" (Jn. 1:1,18). * ”But thou, Bethlehem Ephrata, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." (Micah 5:2)
    2. Is the title 'firstborn' as applied to Christ linked to being the "elder brother" of you and me as pre-earth spirits, or to Christ as pre-eminent heir and creator of all things? The Firstborn "spirit" of many born spirits on a planet near Kolob; the 'Mormon Jesus' at his "spirit birth" was only "more special" at his "spirit birth" than you or me only because He was the "firstborn" In Hebrew culture, the firstborn = "heir"...Jesus was not the "first" to be born...though Paul also adds in Col. 1:18 Jesus was the "firstborn of the dead" -- the first to rise from the dead. Colossians 1:15-16 explains this Jesus as "heir" -- "firstborn" -- as this Greek word meant pre-eminent -- or has first right over all creation...Psalm 80:27 demonstrates this idea of priority of position as Col. 1:16 says Jesus is creator of all, all things were created for Jesus (cf. Hebrews 3:4)
    3. Can the 'Creator' be One who was 'created' (as a 'creature')? YES "And virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pg.269 implying that "Christendom" postulates a "mythical Christ" because we say Jesus is "uncreated" -- and part of a "triple unity" with the Father and Holy Spirit). NO: 16 For by him were ALL things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL things were created by him, and for him: (Col. 1:16)
    4. Was Jesus as Son of God perfect from eternity past? NO: "Even Christ himself was NOT perfect at first; he received not a fulness at first, but he received grace for grace, and he continued to receive more and more until he received a fulness." (Lds 6th "prophet" Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, 1986, p. 68; cf. Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith, p. 153) * "...we have a correct idea of the character of the Son from the writings of the apostles, so far as they learned it. But while he was tabernacling in the flesh, he was more or less contaminated with fallen nature." (Brigham Young, JoD vol. 6, p. 95) YES: "He made Him WHO KNEW NO SIN to be sin" (2 Cor. 5:21); Christ "did no sin" (1 Pet. 2:22)
    5. Was Jesus always divine from eternity past? NO: * "Jesus BECAME a God and reached His great state of understanding through consistent effort and continuous obedience to all the Gospel truths and universal laws." (p. 51 Milton Hunter, The Gospel Through the Ages); * "Christ ATTAINED Godhood while yet in pre-existence..." (Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 323) YES: "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." (Jesus' prayer in Gethsemane, John 17:5); ...unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever (Heb. 1:8)
    6. Was Jesus born "at" Bethlehem? NO: "...he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem..." (Alma 7:10, Book of Mormon) YES: Actual Jesus born IN Bethlehem (Matt. 2:1) not "at Jerusalem" Was Jesus born "at Jerusalem"?
    7. Was one of the purposes that Christ came to earth was so that He, Himself could become a "saved being?" YES: The 'Mormon' Jesus: "Christ is a saved being” (Lds "apostle" McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 3, p 257) “Modern revelation speaks of our Lord as he that ‘ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth‘ (D&C 88:6). Christ's rise to the throne of exaltation was preceded by his descent below all things. Only by submitting to the powers of demons and death and hell could he, in the resurrection, serve as our exemplar of a SAVED BEING...(McConkie and Millet, Doctrinal Commentary on the Book of Mormon, vol. 1, p. 234) Please also see... * McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 3, p. 238 where he said the Mormon "jesus" "Needs salvation...Came to earth to work out His own salvation) and * McConkie, "The Seven Deadly Heresies,' in Speeches of the Year, 1980 [Provo: Brigham Young University Press, 1981] p. 78 where he said: "There was only one perfect being, the Lord Jesus. If men had to be perfect and live all of the law strictly, wholly, and completely, there would be only one saved person in eternity." [cited in Come, Follow Me: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide 1983 (1983) p. 72] NO: I'm sorry, but the real Christ did not need to "work out His own salvation" as Lds apostles teach; in fact, He is THE Savior of the world: And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be THE Savior of the world. (1 John 4:14; cf. John 4:42).
    8. Is Jesus but one 'savior'-'redeemer' among many? YES: The "Jesus" of Brigham Young is one redeemer-savior among who knows how many? "He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. On every earth. How many earths are there?... Consequently every earth has its redeemer..." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 14, p. 71, 1870); cf. how Mormons name themselves as "saviors" -- numerous citations: Are Mormon people LITERAL saviors of dead Jews, others? NO: "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be THE Savior of the world." (1 John 4:14); "They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is THE Savior of the world.” (John 4:42)
    9. Were our sins 'atoned' for in the Garden of Gethesemane? YES: * "It was in Gethsemane, on the slopes of the Mount of Olives, that Jesus made his perfect atonement by the shedding of his blood more so than on the cross." (BYU Professor Robert J. Matthews, A Bible! ABible! p. 282) * "It was there [Gethsemane] that the Savior paid the price for all the sorrows, sins and transgressions of every human being who ever lives or ever will live." (Seventy -- Second Quorum -- Wolfgang H. Paul, "Gratitude for the Atonement," Ensign, June 2007, p. 15) NO: This Jesus didn't atone for sins by sweating blood in the garden; He did it on Calvary as the Bible proclaims in Col. 1:20: "And, having made peace through the blood of the cross..."
    10. Was Jesus quite violent at the point of His death? YES: Lds "prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith talked about "...a period of darkness at the death of Christ... "greater period of darkness and terrible punishment came upon the people in the Western Hemisphere because of their extreme wickedness..." (Answers to Gospel Questions, vol. 3, p. 45, Deseret Book Co., 1960) Biblical Jesus came to see that they would have life (John 10:10); the Book of Mormon jesus came to bring down destruction (3 Nephi 9:12) and ensure that people would "howl" in that destruction (3 Nephi 8:23); The Biblical Jesus came to ensure people would have abundant life (John 10:10); the Book of Mormon jesus came to ensure people would be in "continual...mourning" (3 Nephi 8:23); The Biblical Jesus came to be the Light of the world (John 1:9; 8:12; 9:5); the Book of Mormon jesus came to yield complete darkness for three days (3 Nephi 8:23) NOTE: Please read 3 Nephi 8:8-->3 Nephi 9:12 for entire picture of overwhelming destruction caused by the Mormon 'Jesus': Cities were supposedly all either sunk by the Mormon jesus, or horrifically burned to death, plus for added emphasis, ”many great destructions have I caused to come upon this land...” (3 Nephi 9:12)...All told, upon the Mormon jesus' death, he supposedly unleashes punishment. He levels 16 cities, killing 70,000-->90,000 people! [Note: Nothing of the kind is stated in the Bible!] Yes, there was judgment on the cross! Yes, it was terrible!
    But the real Jesus absorbed all of that judgment and terror -- our very sins -- there on the cross! The sad result is that too many LDS & RLDS alike ONLY see the Book of Mormon Easter judgment upon people! The week that followed the Book of Mormon jesus’ resurrection, was a terrible 4 days or so! No wonder a tremendous aversion to the cross exists among Mormons due to Joseph Smith's version of post crucifixion events!
    NO: The Biblical Jesus came to see that they would have life (John 10:10), to ensure people would have abundant life (John 10:10), and to be the Light of the world (John 1:9; 8:12; 9:5)
    11. Did Jesus really die for our personal sins or our rebellious nature? NO: Lds "apostle" Jeffrey Holland though claims forgiveness of personal sins applies to only to members of the Mormon church: From this Holland article: Latter-day Saints believe that other aspects of Christ's gift are conditional upon obedience and diligence in keeping God's commandments. For example, while members of the human family are freely and universally given a reprieve from Adam's sin through no effort or action of their own, they are not freely and universally given a reprieve of their own sins unless they pledge faith in Christ, repent of those sins, are baptized in his name, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost and confirmation into Christ's church... Source: Lds "apostle" Jeffrey Holland: ATONEMENT OF JESUS CHRIST - Mormon- (OPEN) The Mormon 2nd article of faith emphasizes the Mormon doctrine of men being subject to punishment for their own sins; this Mormon "jesus" doesn't serve as our Substitute [LDS second article of faith: "We believe that men will be punished for their OWN sins, and not for Adam's transgression."] The Mormon second article of faith, therefore, is a half-truth and a false gospel. Men who do not place their faith in the true Jesus Christ will indeed die in their sins; beyond that, Jesus' blood covers the sin of others. The flip side of the Mormon 2nd article of faith is that the Mormon jesus was simply punished for Adam's sin to release us to "free agency." YES, BOTH: "...the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from ALL sin." (1 John 1:7) Other Biblical verses rejected: 1 John 2:2; 1 Peter 2:24; Heb. 1:3
    12. Is Christ's powerful atoning blood diluded to 'anemic' levels? YES: Although the Book of Mormon makes some solid statements about Christ's powerful atoning blood (see, for example Mosiah 3:18), Mormon leaders wind up accusing Jesus of having rather anemic blood; yes, Lds "scriptures" highlight His blood as one which cleanses from unrighteousness (Alma 7:14, Book of Mormon; D&C 76:41, Doctrines & Covenants; Moses 6:59, Pearl of Great Price) -- unfortunately such ultimate cleansing is rooted solely on ability to keep commandments: "That by keeping the commandments, they MIGHT be washed and cleansed from all their sins." (D&C 76:52). Other related statements to diluting cleansing power of Christ's blood: * "Joseph Smith taught that there were certain sins so grievous that man may commit, that they will place the transgressors beyond the power of the atonement of Christ. If these offenses are committed, then the blood of Christ will not cleanse them from their sins even though they repent. Therefore their only hope is to have their own blood shed to atone, as far as possible, in their behalf. This is scriptural doctrine, and is taught in all the standard works of the Church." (Lds "prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith, "Doctrines of Salvation, vol.1 , p. 135-136) * "Man may commit certain grievous sins--according to his light and knowledge--that will place him beyond the reach of the atoning blood of Christ. If then he would be save he must make sacrifice of his own life to atone-- so far as in his power lies -- for that sin, for the blood of Christ alone under certain circumstances will not avail." (Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 93). So much for the power of Christ's blood to cover sins per Mormonism! * "Christians speak often of the blood of Christ and its cleansing power. Much that is believed and taught on this subject, however, is such utter nonsense and so palpably false that to believe it is to lose one's salvation. Many go so far, for instance, as to pretend, at least, to believe that if we confess Christ with our lips and avow that we accept him as our personal Savior, we are thereby saved. His blood, without other act than mere belief, they say, makes us clean." (Lds Tract titled, "What the Mormons Think of Christ, p. 31) * "There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it; and the judgments of the Almighty will come, sooner or later, and every man and woman will have to atone for breaking their covenants" (Brigham Young, March 16, 1856, Journal of Discourses, 3:247) NO: "...the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from ALL sin." (1 John 1:7); "To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood" (Rev. 1:5); "... with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation."(Rev. 5:9); "they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (Rev. 7:14); "And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood." (Heb. 13:12); "Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus..." (Heb. 10:19); "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace" (Eph. 1:7); Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!" (Rom. 5:9)
    13. Is Jesus as unique as the Bible makes Him out to be? NO: Due to unique Lds doctrine that (a) we were all eternal; (b) we were all spirit babies just like Jesus; (c) their teaching that Jesus was a "saved being" -- in need of "salvation"; (d) all Mormons become "saviors" via baptizing dead people; (e) all temple Mormons become gods. (f) and SOME Lds leaders' teachings that Jesus is not deserving of worship. The Mormon "jesus" upon spirit birth was not unique other than his spirit birth order. He's just one god among perhaps millions of Mormon "gods." (Lds "prophet" Spencer W. Kimball not all that long ago told 225,000 gathered that perhaps "225,000 gods" were among them then!!!) YES: 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of THE ONLY begotten Son of God. (John 3:18) Jesus is either "the ONLY begotten Son" from eternity -- not one of MANY begotten spirit sons in some pre-existence -- or He is not unique; and if Lds say "begotten" references such new "condition" Jesus acquired upon conception in Mary's womb, how is it that Jesus suddenly became a Son and the Father suddenly became a Father -- unless it's true that Lds "apostle" Bruce McConkie & Lds "prophet" Brigham Young taught that the paternity was a literal one -- that the Father came down and had sex with Mary!!!
    14. Can Jesus be prayed to directly? NO: Yet... “And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and God…when Jesus had thus prayed unto the Father, he came unto his disciples, and behold, they did still continue, without ceasing, to pray unto him…And it came to pass that Jesus blessed them as they did pray unto him…And Jesus said unto them: Pray on; nevertheless they did not cease to pray.” (3 Nephi 19:18, 24-26, Book of Mormon) YES Stephen, Acts prayed directly to Jesus! While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." (Acts 7:59)
  • Mormon church sues Winston Blackmore for trademark infringement

    06/28/2014 6:22:55 AM PDT · 73 of 82
    Colofornian to ViLaLuz; laotzu; Elsie; freedomlover; Alex Murphy; svcw; All
    it appears to me the Christ of LDS is different from the Christ of the Bible. do you think that is a topic worthy of respectful discussion? (VilaLuz)

    (To which Laotzu responded in post #17): Oh, aye. I do.

    So the question before us here is: Do Mormons worship another Christ than the one of the Bible, as properly raised by VilaLuz. After all, the apostle Paul so indicated in the Scriptures that indeed -- "another Jesus" can be embraced (2 Cor. 11:3-4). After all, we can't just "Gumby-style" twist Jesus into whomever we want Him to be -- and then say anything ascribed to Him is actually Him!

    So I developed this "Initial" chart to show that on this question, we are actually in agreement with certain Mormon leaders -- and in disagreement with others (like Laotzu and many grassroots Mormons) that we all worship the same Jesus!


    Lds speak about, believe, acknowledge, worship, and trust a 'different' Christ than most Christians do

    Lds Source Lds Leaders Say: 'Different Christ' Bible indicates: 'Different Christ'
    Lds 'prophet' Gordon B. Hinckley: Lds "prophet" Gordon B. Hinckley: “There are those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints do not believe in the traditional Christ. No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak.” (LDS Church News, June 20, 1998)

    Hinckley again: As a Church we have critics, many of them. They say we do not believe in the traditional Christ of Christianity. There is some substance to what they say. Our faith, our knowledge is not based on ancient tradition, the creeds which came of a finite understanding and out of the almost infinite discussions of men trying to arrive at a definition of the risen Christ. Our faith, our knowledge comes of the witness of a prophet in this dispensation who saw before him the great God of the universe and His Beloved Son, the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ. ("We Look to Christ", from April 2002 General Conference.)

    "The FACT IS, we do NOT depend on the Bible or on traditional biblical interpretations for our theology." (BYU professor Robert L. Millet, Review of Books on the Book of Mormon, 6:1, p. 198). Did you notice the "WE" of Millet's statement? -- and that there wasn't a storm or even a peep of protest from either Mormon leaders or Mormon grassroots objecting to this Millet statement...and I would guestimate that lack of protest encompasses ALL FReeper Mormons! In stark contrast, the traditional Christ within Christianity is...
    ...uniquely THE ONLY begotten Son from eternity past, not one of millions of God's pre-existent "sons";
    He is uniquely Savior, not one of millions of saviors per Mormondom;
    He is uniquely Creator and divine and self-existent from eternity past, not one of MILLIONS of men who are somehow likewise "self-existent" from eternity past;
    His blood is uniquely powerful beyond men's commandment-keeping -- lest the promise Jesus made to the thief on the cross become a false prophecy;
    His blood is potent enough to cover ALL sins, unlike the Mormon Jesus who leaves men to "make up" for anemic blood via their own "blood atonement."
    He absorbed God's wrath vs. the Book of Mormon violent Jesus who took out His wrath upon thousands of residents in alleged 16 Book of Mormon cities! The violent Mormon Jesus sunk, entombed, and otherwise destroyed perhaps up to 90,000 upon His death on the Mormon cross! The Bible knows no such horrific crucifixion aftermath fairy tales...
    Lds official publication Ensign; BYU Press; Lds curricula - Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide “It is true that many of the Christian churches worship a different Jesus Christ than is worshipped by the Mormons.” – LDS publication, Ensign Magazine, May 1977, p. 26; "True and saving worship is found ONLY among those who know the truth about God and the Godhead, and who understand the true relationship men should have with each member of that Eternal Presidency." ("Our Relationship with the Lord," in Fireside and Devotional Speeches, 1981-82 (Provo: BYU Press, 1982), p. 97 -- this quote republished in official Lds curricula publication in 1983, 1986, Come unto Christ: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, 1984/1988, p. 45) (See comparison charts to follow); Christians worship a Christ who can receive direct prayer (Acts 7:59; Mormons even militate vs. their own "scripture" on this -- see 3 Nephi 19:18, 24-26)
    Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie "And virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pg.269). The Christ of Christianity is 'mythical' per an Lds "apostle"? And Mormons imagine that they haven't somehow wielded a direct attack upon Christians worldwide? May I remind Mormons that Lds continued to publish McConkie's "Mormon Doctrine" book? (The Mormon church got ahold of the direct copyright, acquiring it from Bookcraft, and then publishing it under its direct ownership umbrella -- Deseret Book Publishing -- in 1993) McConkie's book was published/republished under 7, count 'em 7, Mormon "prophets" (McKay, Lee, Kimball, Benson, Hunter, Hinckley, Monson). Only McKay conveyed strongly that alterations needs to be forthcoming after the initial edition, and revisions were made...but not enough to keep from embarrassing the Mormon faithful ever since!

    Summary bottom-line:
    Mormon official publications say they worship a different Christ...
    ...the Mormon "prophet" said they speak about, believe and acknowledge a different Christ...
    ...Most Christians say they worship, speak of and trust another Jesus...
    ...So. We would seem to be on the same why the few stragglers who are out of harmony???

  • Mormon church sues Winston Blackmore for trademark infringement

    06/27/2014 7:40:17 PM PDT · 69 of 82
    Colofornian to laotzu; Elsie
    Impressive research involved. My compliments. Only a timely, and thorough search through reams of postings could have found that.

    Thorough? No. I recalled that you had mentioned some denom...recalled a few words I had mentioned when I responded to that last Fall...plugged those words along with a few qualifiers in a Google search...and up it came.

  • Mormon church sues Winston Blackmore for trademark infringement

    06/27/2014 5:52:22 PM PDT · 64 of 82
    Colofornian to laotzu; Elsie; All
    Elsie, On Oct. 11 of last year, Laotzu wrote:

    "Baptists have quite a violent history. There’s lots written about it out there. Are we a cult too? Should I seek God's forgiveness, and your approval?
    Post #13

  • Mormon church sues Winston Blackmore for trademark infringement

    06/27/2014 2:39:40 PM PDT · 59 of 82
    Colofornian to laotzu; Alex Murphy; Elsie; All
    Why is the “small polygamous sect in British Columbia” not considered to be Christian?

    I see Alex' question didn't receive an answer.

    Your take?

    And I also add to that: Why is the "small polygamous sect in British Columbia" not allowed to be identified as Mormon?

    It all seems to me evidence of more religious hypocrisy, both on the part of Mormons -- and yourself.

    You want to identify Mormons as "Christian" -- and take issue with those who do not. Yet when the Mormon Church takes issue with who is "Mormon," that doesn't seem to faze you. Why not?

  • Assault over saved seats at Mormon chapel leads to jail sentence

    06/27/2014 2:31:26 PM PDT · 22 of 22
    Colofornian to Elsie; All
    Doesn't this happen in ALL churches??P

    (Oh, I see "assault" charges arising from pewfights in Evangelical, Orthodox, and Catholic churches every week /s)

    In "fact," I hear a new reality show is about to be created:

    PewKickBoxing (or something along those lines)

  • Oregon school shooting suspect fascinated with guns but was a devoted Mormon, his friends say

    06/27/2014 2:25:52 PM PDT · 27 of 38
    Colofornian to Texan Tory; reaganaut; Graybeard58; All
    ...holding protests at church meetings

    My understanding is that the group merely showed up at these meetings. There were no placards, no chanting.

    How loosely are either you -- or the Mormon Church -- or both...playing with the word "protest?"

    It certainly would be beneficial for girls to be introduced into the same responsibilities as the boys if it were the will of God that the priesthood should be extended to women as well as men. I think that is the central question here: should the priesthood be extended to women? The leaders of the church do not believe that women are supposed to hold the priesthood.

    #1...As 1 Tim. 3:8-12 shows, there isno Biblical basis for pre-teen boys to hold deacon "priesthoods"...therefore, if there is no Biblical precedent for that, then Mormon leaders can't fall back on "no Biblical basis" for girls, either.

    #2...Show me ANY verse in the other additional Mormon "scriptures" which says women cannot hold the Mormon priesthood.

    #3...I noticed that your default position was "the leaders of the Church" says...not the Bible...not the Mormon Standard Works...just "leaders of the Church."

    Tell us, didn't "leaders of the Church" also tell the world and the Mormon Church that blacks couldn't hold the priesthood? Wasn't that the "leaders of the Church" status quo for 150 years? (And if they were wrong then, why do you place such faith in them?)

    You would have to concede then that the "will of leaders of the church" is NOT the same thing as "the revealed will of God!"

  • LDS missionaries install illegal flagpole on top of Mount Olympus

    06/27/2014 12:31:02 PM PDT · 32 of 41
    Colofornian to panaxanax; svcw; All
    No LDS jay-walkers to report on or bash today?

    Well, let's see. Panaxanax posted this late a.m.

    And by then, two FR threads had gone up this a.m....They included:

    * Oregon school shooting suspect fascinated with guns but was a devoted Mormon, his friends say
    * Sex abuse lawsuit filed against Mormon church [allegations re: Lds missionary & cover-up]

    Panaxanax' implication referencing "jay-walking"? That serious crimes like murder and 13-year-old repeated rape are on the same level as "jay-walking."

    (Seems quite determined to engage in criminal-acts' reductionism for the sake of protecting the Mormon Church).

  • Oregon school shooting suspect fascinated with guns but was a devoted Mormon, his friends say

    06/27/2014 12:24:58 PM PDT · 17 of 38
    Colofornian to panaxanax; truth_seeker; All
    (Do you go on Obama threads & tell FReepers there that their "bashing" of Obama is "really getting tiresome?")

    FACT: The Mormon Church has continually invited critiques by its actions, by its words, by its doctrines, and by its spiritual counterfeiting, amongst still other areas.

  • Oregon school shooting suspect fascinated with guns but was a devoted Mormon, his friends say

    06/27/2014 11:45:10 AM PDT · 15 of 38
    Colofornian to Texan Tory; All
    The responsibilities of a twelve-year-old deacon in the Mormon church would not tend to be as great as the responsibilities of an adult deacon as described in 1 Timothy, but their assignments introduce them to the concept of service in the priesthood for the good of others, such as the passing of the sacrament trays of bread and water. I can see how you might object to the nomenclature of referring to these boys as deacons, but how could anyone object to the service they provide for the benefit of others (such as passing the sacrament)?

    My initial comment in this piece was contrasting how 12 year old boys could be entrusted with deacon responsibilities in the Mormon Church; but if any woman dare advocate that females could carry these same "introductory" responsibilities in the Mormon Church, they are at risk of ex-communication!

    If this is all so "grand" -- for 12-year-old BOYS to be introduced into "service they provide for the benefit of others" -- then why might you object to 12-year-old GIRLS who could be "introduced" into "service...provided for the benefit of others?"

    Wouldn't this also be "wholesome responsibilities" to include girls -- if it's so "beneficial" for both the girls and others?

  • Oregon school shooting suspect fascinated with guns but was a devoted Mormon, his friends say

    06/27/2014 11:39:44 AM PDT · 14 of 38
    Colofornian to panaxanax; truth_seeker; All
    ALL: So a devoted Mormon teen shoots a fellow kid at school and injures a teacher, and Panaxanax is more concerned about the poster of this article than he is about a kid who shot up others at schools?

    This reminds me where you hear about those overly concerned about people who drive panel trucks (or simply stand on the public sidewalk) showing pictures of aborted babies in the proximity of high school and college campuses.

    They are more concerned about the images of aborted babies being made public to students than the violent murders which caused those babies to be mangled to begin with!

    With those people who object to aborted images -- but not to how those babies became that way -- there's a deep moral and spiritual void looming there!

  • How Marriott’s owner put aside his Mormon beliefs to cash in on the LGBT travel market

    06/27/2014 11:32:50 AM PDT · 40 of 45
    Colofornian to Zakeet
    (Thanks for the correction...and we know even a "private" bar for Smith was never "privatized" for only him)