Posts by Colofornian

Brevity: Headers | « Text »
  • Moroni From the Realms of Glory

    12/17/2014 10:39:49 PM PST · 53 of 79
    Colofornian to Normandy
    Salvation from sin, death and the effects of the fall...(and from ensuing post: "I agree with your points 1-5. Spiritual death comes to man because of the Fall and because of sin. After Adam and Eve fell they were cast out of the presence of God, and we are born into this fallen world..."

    Normandy, let's just take "the fall" on this given post.

    I have a book published by Mormon Church owned Deseret Book Publishing (1990). It's called A Witness of Jesus Christ: The 1989 Sperry Symposium on the Old Testament.

    Chapter 9 is contributing by a BYU prof...Robert J. Matthews. He presents a totally distinct picture from how you've presented the Fall so negatively (which, BTW, I do agree with you). What I'm saying though is Mormonism doesn't present the Fall negatively; in fact, just the opposite!

    Allow me to quote from Mathews:

    "No mention is made in Genesis about how Adam and Eve felt about the Fall and having been cast out of the Garden of Eden. But in the Joseph Smith Translation, Genesis 4:912 (Moses :10 & 11), we find both of them rejoicing because of the great new life and spiritual opportunities available to them as a result of the Fall...It is only from latterday revelation that we learn that Adam and Eve would have had no children without the Fall. The bible does not define this and therefore many have looked upon the transgression of Adam as a bad thing, believing that if Adam had not transgressed, the earth would have kept its paradisiacal status and the entire human family could have lived in paradise without sin, death, and so forth. Little do these theorists know or realize that none of the human family would have been born if Adam and Eve had not fallen. The references for this very significant and essential doctrine are 2 Nephi 2:23; Moses 5:11; and Moses 6:48." (p. 142)

    Joseph Fielding Smith, the 10th "prophet" of the Church, wrote: "I never speak of the part Eve took in this fall as a sin, nor do I accuse Adam of a sin" (Doctrines of Salvation, 1:114)

    He also wrote: "Adam and Eve rejoiced in the Fall..." and that Adam's "transgression" "was not a sin in the strict sense." (same source, p. 115...also cited in The Pearl of Great Price Student Manual Religion 327, p. 13)

    Lds "apostle" Dallin Oaks at the Fall General Conference in 1993 - republished in the November Ensign of that year -- claimed that "Some Christians condemn Eve for her act, concluding that she and her daughters are somehow flawed by it. Not the Latter-day Saints! Informed by revelation, we celebrate Eve's act and honor her wisdom and courage in the great episode called the Fall." ("The Great Plan of Happiness, p. 73 in the November 1993 Ensign.

    Other Lds sources also say that minus the Fall, Mormons wouldn't have been able to progress toward godhood!

    So here you wisely talk about the many consequences of the Fall-- and rightly so. And yet how has Satan convinced Mormon leaders of what his rebellious mutiny entailed???

    Why, per Mormon leadership, you don't need to be "saved" from the effects of the Fall...
    ...why supposedly sex and procreation were based upon it...
    ...progression toward godhood was based upon it...
    ...that it wasn't somehow "sinful"...
    ...that it was actually "spiritually opportunistic"...
    ...Eve was "wise" and "courageous" to directly disobey God (I'm sure, Satan would say, like he was!!!)
    ...And here...Normandy...your leaders are telling you "celebrate" and "rejoice" over their direct disobedience of "the Fall"...

    Sorry, Normandy...but you can't eat your cake and have it, too.

    You can't claim "salvation" from something supposedly so positive (wise, courageous, spiritually opportunistic, not sinful, something to rejoice in, something to celebrate) ...something that your 10th "prophet" took issue with Christians who claimed that we were "somehow flawed by it"...

    If you're not flawed by the Fall -- like Joseph Fielding Smith highlighted -- you don't need to be "saved" from it!

    Normandy: Pick your authority: The Bible and obvious experience of life where terrorists murder 136 children in Pakistan and Mormons murder 120 children and their parents in Southern Utah (1857)...or the leaders who orchestrated the Mountain Meadows Massacre slaughter and reinforced the Book of Mormon's take on the Fall and the Pearl of Great Price take on the Fall and your General Authorities who have been spouting the above nonsense ever since!

  • Moroni From the Realms of Glory

    12/17/2014 1:48:06 PM PST · 47 of 79
    Colofornian to Normandy; Gamecock; John S Mosby; All
    If I rely solely on Jesus Christ for my salvation, what does that make me?

    Re: "salvation": The Bible talks about the following aspects those in Christ are saved from:

    1. Bondage to Personal Sin (John 8:34; Romans 6) + original sin (Psalm 51:5; Psalm 58:3; Romans 5)
    2. Eternal hell (numerous passages spoken by Jesus in Gospels)
    3. Satan & darkness of world (Acts 26:18)
    4. Fear of death (Hebrews 2:14)
    5. Spiritual death (Eph. 2:1-4; Luke 9:62)

    So, I guess I'm a little befuddled, Normandy.

    Mormonism says we aren't in bondage; we all have free agency.
    Mormonism says no such thing as original sin for us to be saved from.
    Mormonism doesn't believe in eternal hell -- only temporary spirit prison.
    Mormonism says Satan was only your pre-existent spirit brother, not the guy holding supposedly "free agent" people in bondage.

    And Mormonism says we all have a "get-out-of-hell" card as long as when the Mormon spirit missionaries come to us in spirit prison, we accept their proxy baptism and Mormonized "gospel"...So why fear death per Mormonism?

    And spiritual death? When has Mormonism emphasized that?

    So...I guess I'm still trying to understand what Mormonism portends to be saving anybody from...

    What is your salvation from???

  • The Mormon Church's official statement on abortion [rape+ incest+mom's 'health'+'defect'+prayer-ok]

    12/17/2014 1:13:06 PM PST · 61 of 64
    Colofornian to ravenwolf; Morgana; All
    The appropriate answer is that I believe the purpose of posting this thread is not to fight abortion but to trash Mormonism.

    Well, if you DO have a bias vs. the Trinity (3-in-1), then no wonder how that'd extend to failing the realize the 2-in-1 nature of this thread.

    You don't know my history. And you don't know how I've paid a much bigger price for opposing abortion than I have for opposing Mormonism. For you to presume that you know me, and every motivation of mine under the sun is off-base.

    And, hey, I've got news for you: I am opposed to Mormon children being aborted by Mormon parents. Even if those parents had instead given birth to that child, and that child grew up to be raised Mormon & proselytize others into becoming Mormon, I would defend that baby's life the same as any other.

    I had one solo motivation for posting this particular thread...and had no previous thought (at ALL) of posting it til Morgana asked a direct question on another thread. I started to answer it in THAT thread...and then thought, "Hey, since I'm doing the post I might as well do the thread."

    And guess what? On that given thread, the subject is how Mormons feel about BOTH abortion and polygamy. And 26% of Mormons don't oppose abortion. Guess what? It's people from among those 26% who have either aborted their offspring -- or, if of childbearing age -- are vulnerable to doing that.

    Picking out one religion on the abortion issue is like picking out one bad apple out of a barrel of rotten apples.

    Well, Morgana on that other thread didn't ask what the Presbyterian view on abortion is, or what the Baptist view on abortion is...she asked what Mormon view is. And if because you somehow can't control what questions are or aren't asked around FREEPERville, you're blaming me for that?

    Pathetic.

  • The Mormon Church's official statement on abortion [rape+ incest+mom's 'health'+'defect'+prayer-ok]

    12/17/2014 12:28:03 PM PST · 59 of 64
    Colofornian to NKP_Vet; ansel12; All
    The number of Catholics that voted for Romney DWARF any protestant denomination in the United States that voted for Romney. Now put that in your pipe and smoke it.

    Allow me to provide a slightly exaggerated example of what NKP_Vet is doing to show the fallacy of such thinking:

    Let's say some vote existed in London whereby...
    ...(a) the turnout was 100%...
    ...and (b) those who claimed to be Christian (less than 4 million) voted on a pure 100% Christian faith basis -- and those who didn't claim to be Christian (more than 4 million) all voted the exact opposite.

    Hence, (c) to be clear...this would mean that because the non-Christians are greater than the Christians in London...the Christians would be on the losing side of whatever vote occurred. Let's say such a moral measure died at the polls.

    But then some Londoner comes along and wants to defend ALL of London as to how they voted.

    So when challenged by someone ... why couldn't your 8+ million city pass this measure when this other 5-million city easily passed it 75-25%??? (3.75 million for; 1.25 million against)

    The Londoner's answer?

    Hey, we had MORE Londoners vote for the measure (over 3.9 million) than your city did!

    (Oh, and never mind about those other "Londoners" who betrayed their fellow citizens by voting against said XYZ measure)

  • The Mormon Church's official statement on abortion [rape+ incest+mom's 'health'+'defect'+prayer-ok]

    12/17/2014 12:09:19 PM PST · 57 of 64
    Colofornian to NKP_Vet; ansel12; All
    There are so many pro-abort and pro-queer protestant churches in the United States you can’t keep track of them. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

    (This is like a grandma lambasting her daughters about the immoral lifestyles of some of her grandchildren...when she herself utterly failed to raise ANY of her daughters with an exemplary gracious life but resorted to works-based ritualism and icons that distracted others from God...the amazing thing actually is that so MANY -- as in MOST -- of the daughters & grandchildren actually turned out faith-filled!)

  • The Mormon Church's official statement on abortion [rape+ incest+mom's 'health'+'defect'+prayer-ok]

    12/17/2014 12:04:20 PM PST · 56 of 64
    Colofornian to ansel12
    Mid Term elections are always low turn out, when conservatives have much more influence, as the general population tends to not pay much attention without all the hoopla of a presidential race.

    (Excellent point...limited coffee this a.m. on my part :) )

  • Moroni From the Realms of Glory

    12/17/2014 9:57:20 AM PST · 26 of 79
    Colofornian to Normandy; Tennessee Nana
    A Mormon here. If a Christian is one who believes in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, then I am a Christian.

    In light of posts #11 & #21, exactly what did the Mormon Jesus-Savior "save" you FROM?

  • The Mormon Church's official statement on abortion [rape+ incest+mom's 'health'+'defect'+prayer-ok]

    12/17/2014 9:15:55 AM PST · 48 of 64
    Colofornian to ansel12; NKP_Vet; All
    When it comes to opposing abortion, the majority of Catholics vote pro abortion, the majority of Protestants vote pro-life, and Evangelicals are massively, overwhelmingly, pro-life voters. (Ansel12)

    [NKP_Vet's response to Ansel12 in post #45: BS!]

    Well, NKP_Vet, Ansel12 IS right...although a corner may have finally been turned in this year's election:

    Per Bill Donohue of the Catholic League:
    * 2008: Catholics voted for Obama vs. McCain 54-45%
    * 2012: Catholics voted for Obama vs. Romney 50-48% -- although here this REALLY isn't a fair comparison AT ALL given that Romney was/is also pro-abortion...so I'd frankly throw out the 2012 election results for POTUS as partially meaningless on abortion...STILL, 50% of Catholics voting for Obama in 2012...and 52% averaged over both elections is VERY problematic from EVERY angle...abortion, too!
    * 2014: Catholics voted for Republican candidates over Democratic candidates 54-45% (60% of White Catholics voted for Republicans)

    Now, mind you...not ALL of those Republicans running in '14 that received those Catholic votes were "pro-life"...but the far majority of them were.

    Source: Catholic Voters Abandon Democrats as The Party Embraces Unlimited Abortion

  • The Mormon Church's official statement on abortion [rape+ incest+mom's 'health'+'defect'+prayer-ok]

    12/17/2014 9:01:25 AM PST · 47 of 64
    Colofornian to Burkean
    Actually there are cases of ectopic pregnancies leading to live births, so even that cannot be a hard and fast exception. I’ve read statistics as high as 30% survival rate.

    (Thank you for pointing this out. I'll further research it!)

  • Moroni From the Realms of Glory

    12/17/2014 8:43:39 AM PST · 21 of 79
    Colofornian to John S Mosby; Claud; Gamecock; Logophile; All
    Since the mormons do not speak of the same Christ (who came down from heaven as God in 3 persons the Trinity and be amongst the common people of sinners- no matter their place in society.... to save their mortal souls) how is it that they can state believing the Christ is a redeemer. Since redemption of our sins (which all have regardless of status) was gained through His death and Resurrection, how do they even state this? They cannot believe it, so it is yet another falsehood and ruse.

    Excellent discernment, John! indeed, when Mormons use terms like "salvation" and "redeem" -- they redefine them and basically empty them of any REAL meaning!

    I went back to an April 19, 2009 FR discussion I was having with a Mormon FREEPER (Logophile, who doesn't post here anymore). [You can find the discussion here ]
    ...but I'll repost part of it here:

    I asked Logophile, when he mentioned an "opportunity for salvation"...
    ..."Salvation" FROM what?
    Salvation from sin? "Nope," says the Mormon, "we're already free agents."
    Salvation from spiritual deadness? "What's that?" asks the Mormon.
    Salvation from bondage to Satan? "You're kidding, right?" says the Mormon. "Doncha know that you, I, Jesus and Lucifer were all spiritual bros of Heavenly Father in the pre-existence? Heavenly Father is everybody's Dad. Beyond that, nope, no children of Lucifer that I know."
    Salvation from generational bondage -- original sin? "Oh, we've got that angle covered," says the Mormon. "Jesus' atonement covers Adam's sin. No spiritual effects of that apply anymore. Jesus' atonement allows us all to be resurrected. Hey, just about all of us will be saved already!"

    So, tell me, Logo, saved FROM what? Just this earthly soil? That's not what the Bible depicts at all. Please tell us what blacks, whites, you, me are saved from, anyway, from a Mormon perspective?

    Saved via the Mormon promise that all will be resurrected? [What the fine print of the "Mormon gospel" doesn't tell you is that...]
    ...(a) there's a "resurrection of damnation" -- and that damnation isn't a ,i>"degree of glory." John 5:29: And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
    ...and...
    ...(b) Jesus says in Matt. 7:13-14: ...for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    Well, these words of Jesus are not the "Mormon plan of salvation" at all!

    We don't hear Jesus' words thru Mormon lips that there's a "resurrection to damnation." Instead, we hear their "false salvation" message that just about all will be resurrected in a degree of glory.

    We don't hear Jesus' words thru Mormon lips that the "broadway is destruction" and the "narrow way is life." Instead, we hear their "false salvation" message that just about all will be saved.

    HOW LDS IDEOLOGY SKEWS SALVATION BY IGNORING WHAT WE'RE SAVED FROM

    (1) The Bible says...
    ...men are spiritually dead (Eph. 2:1) & in bondage to sin (see Romans 6)...
    ...Jesus SAVES SOME (not all) from spiritual death & bondage to sin...
    ...but what does Mormonism convey to natural man? "You're not dead. You're not in spiritual bondage. You have free agency."

    (2) The Bible says...
    ...men are in bondage to Satan -- "the whole world is under the control of the evil one" (1 John 5:19) -- and Paul called Satan the "god of this world." Furthermore, Jesus clarified this in pointing out to the religious legalists of 2,000 years ago that they were children of Satan (see latter part of John 8). Jesus comes to SAVE people from this bondage. But what does Mormonism convey to natural man? You're God's automatic child of the pre-existence; you're not under Satan's thumb. Logo, men are not naturally God's children - they need to be adopted (Paul's letter to the Romans & letter to the Ephesians stresses this three times). Men need specific authority (based upon reception) to become God's children (John 1:12) -- they are NOT children by pre-existence.

    (3) The Bible says...
    ...that original sin in the garden was a terrible, terrible, horrible thing that separated man from God -- and that it was inspired by Satan. Jesus comes to SAVE us from this generational bondage.
    ...but what does Mormonism convey to natural man? That Eve's act of betrayal and treachery was an "upward fall" -- something to be "celebrated" because the Serpent was "right" -- "Yup," says the Mormon, "the serpent was right 'cause thru sin and rebelliousness we can have our eyes opened and become gods, after all." So Satanic "inspiration" becomes the Mormon gospel narrative.

    So Mormon salvation becomes this grand "works" & "ritualistic" scheme where just about everybody is already guaranteed a passing grade because for the Mormon, salvation is more about...
    ...real estate turf than dealing with the power of sin, Satan, death, and separation from God...
    ...a place (three degrees of glory) than God & the Person of Jesus Christ.

    How can I prove this? Look @ LDS Doctrine & Covenants 76:112. Joseph Smith made up a new word -- "the telestial kingdom" which he called the lowest degree of salvation glory. Smith taught that telestial kingdom residents will be God's servants, but "where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end".

    Only in Mormon thought is living apart from God and Christ "salvation" and "glory!"

    So, the only question thereby left for the Mormon to be settled then is will the Mormon god give folks an A, B, or C "degree of glory" grade?

    But the true essence of what happened in the garden was not only spiritual death, generational bondage to sin and to Satan, but also outright separation from God. The very word "atonement" was coined to mean "at-one-ment" -- harmony, reconciliation. The hostility of man toward God -- the enmity -- has been bridged by Jesus the WAY (John 14:6).

    Our major focus in life isn't about...
    ...becoming a god
    ...or realizing our godhood (the Mormon "gospel")
    ...or figuring out which post-this-life salvific real estate we'll inhabit.

    Our major focus is knowing God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent. It's not our ritualistic performances tied to a religious structure. It's our relationship with God and Jesus Christ!

    Jesus defines this very relational essence as eternal life (John 17:3). And it happens this side of death! LDS claim Jesus' salvation automatically accrues to just about everybody being saved. The Bible talks about salvation not just being future tense -- but present tense. John repeatedly says "he who believe HAS eternal life." (John 3:36) [Doesn't that tell you, Mormon, that "eternal life" is NOT exaltation-unto-godhood?] Salvation doesn't begin in three degrees of glory stardom. We know the Savior NOW in this life! THAT is salvation because HE is salvation!

  • Moroni From the Realms of Glory

    12/17/2014 8:12:34 AM PST · 15 of 79
    Colofornian to skyman; Gamecock; All
    Run, hide your children the Mormons are coming!!

    If the Baker & Fancher parties had taken this sarcastic comment seriously on the day of THE very first 9/11 domestic terrorist attack (1857), 120 of them -- including many children -- may have survived the Mormons' execution-style onslaught.

    Oh, and 17 of those children kidnapped by the Mormons for over a year DID survive...the Army had to come rescue them to return them to extended family members in Arkansas.

    For those wanting to research it, search "Mountain Meadows Massacre" in Southwest Utah. "Governor-'Prophet'" Brigham Young covered it all up so that only one Mormon was ever brought to accountability for the wholesale slaughter.

  • Smithmas

    12/16/2014 9:43:18 PM PST · 11 of 15
    Colofornian to cloudmountain

    Indeed! Merry CHRISTmas!!!!

  • Smithmas

    12/16/2014 9:42:03 PM PST · 8 of 15
    Colofornian to doc1019; cloudmountain; All
    Let me guess, he was born in a manger, and three wise guys brought him presents.

    Well, you might be surprised how often the Mormon Church has tried to usurp CHRISTmas themes-- only to apply them to Joseph Smith!:

    'SmithEmphasisMas': Over-the-top renditions of Christmas themes applied to Joseph Smith [Vanity]

  • Smithmas

    12/16/2014 9:37:30 PM PST · 6 of 15
    Colofornian to cloudmountain; All
  • Smithmas

    12/16/2014 9:28:12 PM PST · 1 of 15
    Colofornian
    So...do real Mormons discuss "Smithmas" on Lds chat boards?

    (Ya better believe it!)

    Is Smithmas celebrated in SOME Mormon quarters? (Yup, too)

    Re: "Praise to the Man" references on this chat board...it's a reference to the Mormon hymn by that title that sings of direct praise and worship to Joseph Smith.

    For a further explanation of what that entails, see: Mormon Tabernacle Choir conductor: 'Praise to the Man'...hymn praises Joseph Smith [Smithmas vanity]

    (You can see by a few comments on this board that more & more Mormons are becoming uncomfortable with this hymn)

  • Mormons hate polygamy thiiiiiiiiis much

    12/16/2014 8:13:39 PM PST · 93 of 93
    Colofornian to Morgana
    I have a better question. Why are FReepers more upset with polygamy on this thread than abortion?

    Lots of reasons. They vary.

    For many -- even me -- we've become desensitized to the plight of the pre-born. Just as Jesus said, "the poor will always with you," we think "abortion will always be with us."

    We fail to think in terms of each pre-born being our neighbor...to us, THEY constitute an impersonal "issue."

    Polygamy, with the advent of same-sex unions, is no longer simply a "historical" "issue"...but will become one of the next legalities our country embraces. So whereas too many of us pro-lifers have essentially given up treating abortion as a "hot-button issue," alternatives to one-man, one-woman marriage has become the NEW hot-button issue.

    Now I am not agreeing with the position that we are to be more provoked by polygamy than abortion...merely explaining among the many reasons why.

    Another reason that could be in play is that the overwhelming majority of FREEPERs are at least worldview-wise pro-life...that doesn't mean they DO things on behalf of the pre-born...but it does mean they don't see themselves as needing to be convinced to BE pro-life.

    To them, many abortion discussions are like, "Why do we need to discuss a matter we all in the choir agree upon?"

    On the other hand, I've had literally DOZENS and DOZENS of Freepers since 2007 -- mormons and otherwise -- who have mindset-wise considered polygamy as Biblically sanctionable and argue in favor of it.

    So just as in our newspapers & TV news, it's the "hot-button" issues where side A is vs. Side B that gets more attention.

  • The Mormon Church's official statement on abortion [rape+ incest+mom's 'health'+'defect'+prayer-ok]

    12/16/2014 7:55:43 PM PST · 36 of 64
    Colofornian to ravenwolf; All
    So they voted for the lesser evil, did you vote for the worse evil?

    You know when there was an argument about who the REAL mom was of a baby, Solomon advised cutting the babe in half to "compromise" on the situation.

    Of course, he was only testing to see who the REAL mom was.

    And that was the one who valued the life of the baby, even if she had to give the baby away.

    If you have a choice between...
    ...(a) justice: the real Mom getting to keep her baby;
    ...(b) injustice: the counterfeit Mom stealing the baby, but the baby living;
    ...and (c) The seemingly first-glance "lesser evil" of avoiding the injustice of allowing a counterfeit Mom to steal the entire baby, you soon realize that the compromise position is 100% morally bankrupt.

    IoW, its "bottom line" is that it only results in a dead baby!

    Voting for a pro-abort this time only emboldens the RINOs to keep feeding you pro-aborts your entire voting life.

    And, no, I didn't vote for EITHER pro-abort! (I do need to face God one day; I'd prefer NOT to explain to Him why I thought warfare upon the womb was something I politically sanctioned)

    But I notice you didn't answer my question: Why is it you assume that voting Republican -- a Republican pro-abort -- is such an ennobling proposition and something Mormon voters (& others) should get some kind of gold star from you for...???

    (I expect an answer)

  • The Mormon Church's official statement on abortion [rape+ incest+mom's 'health'+'defect'+prayer-ok]

    12/16/2014 7:47:35 PM PST · 35 of 64
    Colofornian to Burkean; Morgana; All
    The Catholic Church does seem to be the only church that does not put some caveat on abortion. Even the Southern Baptists okay it if the mother’s life is at peril.

    Well I DO wish that churches that mention the life exception would elaborate a bit on that.

    #1...I really can't think of ANY cases where an abortion is somehow going to be "therapeutic" to a mom's health.

    The baby, after all, isn't a disease and isn't usually "assisting" any disease in process.

    People need to understand that many times we're talking about situations where if there was to be an abortion taking place, it's too early for the baby to be a preemie and it's too late than for anything other than a late-term abortion where they deliver the baby -- all but the head -- and then suck the brains out.

    Listen if the baby can be delivered all but the head minus harm to the Mom...then the baby can be delivered 100%!!!!!!!

    #2 There's really NOT very many circumstances where an abortion is medically necessary. There is ONE case for sure: Ectopic pregnancies.

    Preborns cannot survive an ectopic pregnancy. The death rate in these cases is at least one per pregnancy -- the baby for sure. AND...the baby will also take the mom's life, if not aborted.

    That is about the only "for sure" abortion as 'life-defense' that I know of...

    I don't believe cancer qualifies.

    A good (enough) TV movie (ABC) a while back that focused on this was "A Case for Life" -- where the pro-life mom with cancer (played by Valerie Bertinelli) opposed her family's lobbying for her to abort the baby.

    Anyway, bottom line, when churches say "life in peril" they should mention real-life situations like ectopic pregnancies ... and not leave it up to the prognostic skills of physicians, many of whom are pro-aborts in mentalityand are looking for reasons to abort....

  • The Mormon Church's official statement on abortion [rape+ incest+mom's 'health'+'defect'+prayer-ok]

    12/16/2014 7:14:30 PM PST · 30 of 64
    Colofornian to ravenwolf; ansel12; All
    In 2012 78 percent of the Mormons voted republican.

    So what? Lots of both pro-aborts AND pro-lifers voted for the pro-abort, Mitt Romney.

    And I'd say Mormons voted for pro-abort Romney about 4-to-1 in 2012 & even much HIGHER ratio-wise in the 2008 and 2012 primaries.

    In fact, I'd go so far to say...
    ...since I proved in MANY MANY posts in previous years that Mormon Republicans were voting as high as 92-96% for the pro-abort Romney in the 2008 primaries in certain Western states...
    ...that it was EXACTLY because so many so-called "pro-life" Mormons (& other Republicans) voted for the pro-abort Romney early on...
    ...that it gave a very LONG shelf life to Romney...
    ...resulting in the 2012 POTUS loss to a very weak candidate...
    ...as some pro-lifers didn't want to vote for a pro-abort...
    ...and either voted third party or didn't vote at all for the POTUS in 2012.

    Tell us again why you think voting for an open pro-abort who also gave us an early state version of Obamacare is so ennobling???

    Are you so entrenched in a given party that you'll vote for a pro-abort because he won't favor policies that kill as many as the other pro-abort?

  • When my church found out I worked for Planned Parenthood, they kicked me out. What if…

    12/16/2014 6:54:43 PM PST · 48 of 54
    Colofornian to Cvengr
    Genesis is fairly straight forward regarding God breathing life into Adam AFTER the body had been formed.

    So what?

    #1 A baby's heartbeat & a baby's brainwaves comes AFTER the body is formed as well...But both heartbeats & brainwaves of the pre-born occur BEFORE any surgical abortion takes place. So if you're going to use the "body formation" distinction as a line of demarcation, then you need to be consistent.

    Every abortion stops a beating heart. Every abortion kills off brainwaves.

    #2 If you're going to use highly unique creation examples (like the first Adam, who knew no womb)...then you're going to have to be consistent and use the "second" Adam as well...Jesus

    When He was a fetus, are you trying to tell us He had no soul? (Until He was born?)

  • The Mormon Church's official statement on abortion [rape+ incest+mom's 'health'+'defect'+prayer-ok]

    12/16/2014 5:39:49 PM PST · 27 of 64
    Colofornian to Morgana; doc1019; All
    The vast majority of churches/denominations in general do not do enough to stop abortion. It’s what I’ve been harping about and what I’ll keep harping about until I’m heard. Did you not read my one thread?.... http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3237598/posts I mean READ IT....halfway down. When Abby is talking about women in her abortion clinic. What kind of women, what they were doing.. Asking clinic workers to pray with them, they were reading/holding Bibles in the waiting room. What does that sound like to you? Sounds like to me our churches/denominations somehow lack something in the teaching of pro life values.

    Morgana, churches generally do not address abortion other than "saying the right things" in statements that are kept on dusty shelves.

    Pro-life worldviews are rarely addressed...except in obligatory references made in sermons the third week of each January. Having checked off the checklist, they move on to "other subjects."

    As for who is getting abortions, I meant to post something similar to the following on that thread you referenced, but didn't get around to it.

    The church community has known for quite a while WHO is getting these abortions.

    Back in the 1980s George Grant wrote a book on Planned Parenthood called GRAND ILLUSIONS: The Legacy of Planned Parenthood...

    He references how pro-lifers found thousands of abortion documents in a Houston, TX abortuary dumpster.

    A sampling of these "medical" records revealed abortion clients...and the THEN med records would ask for info like "name of church" and "pastor" or priest...A very high % of them named BOTH a specific church and a specific church leader.

    Then pro-life activist Gregg Cunningham, a former Pennsylvania state legislator, discovered the same kind of info in his research.

  • The Mormon Church's official statement on abortion [rape+ incest+mom's 'health'+'defect'+prayer-ok]

    12/16/2014 5:29:00 PM PST · 24 of 64
    Colofornian to Boogieman
    "feel through prayer" Hey, if “feeling through personal prayer” is good enough to tell you to toss out the Bible and believe in Joey Smith’s tall tales, then it must be good enough to approve your abortion too.

    My thoughts exactly! (Although you framed this much better...and more succinctly...than I would have)

  • The Mormon Church's official statement on abortion [rape+ incest+mom's 'health'+'defect'+prayer-ok]

    12/16/2014 5:18:20 PM PST · 21 of 64
    Colofornian to hinckley buzzard
    Disappointing. This basically echoes the spineless "social statement" of the liberal mainline ELCA and probably the rest of the liberal protestant churches. In other words, abortion is OK if you furrow your brow and frown and purse your lips and pray about it.

    Sorrowful, indeed. (Good way to phrase the above)

    The ELCA is worse in at least one regard: For a LONG time, their insurance abortion plans have paid for the abortions of their female clergy & other full-time benefits-based staffers.

  • Mormons hate polygamy thiiiiiiiiis much

    12/16/2014 5:16:39 PM PST · 91 of 93
    Colofornian to Morgana; All
    Having an abortion:74% Practicing polygamy: 86%

    So why is polygamy more ingrained within Mormons to be something against than even abortion?

    'Tis a complex response...and no one thing addresses it all.

    But some clues exist:

    (1) You can be ex-communicated for being a polygamist this side of the grave; whereas with an abortion, why, you might even have the Mormon gods giving you the prayer green-light for one! So...there's a pretty good internal motivation for establishing your standards.

    (2) Externally, Mormons know that their reputation has been more formed by their polygamous 19th century and first half of the 20th century...
    ...than, say, their doctrine of pre-mortalism whereby supposedly other-worldly spirits await pregnancies to come down & inhabit bodies...
    ...hence, they are more likely to "straight-arm" polygamy as a defense of "Well, that's not who we are...anymore..." (as if their church doesn't still teach eternal polygamy for both past polygamists and those who marry more than one wife eternally in their temples)

    (3) Finally, Mormonism is more of a dictatorial legalistic religion...with their general authorities & personal bishops operating as mini-dictators. So, Mormon statements have been made saying they have NOT addressed -- either pro or con -- any pro-life legislative proposals...

    And, frequently, abortion is sub-sumed by many other issues. One man, one wife, HAS, however, been supported by the Mormon Church (California Proposition that passed, for example)...

    So, whereas the Mormon Church hasn't been 100% paper tigers on one-man, one-woman marriage, it HAS been with abortion. Obviously, their members DO tend to notice that, ya know.

    Of course, other aspects are at play in all of this...so I don't pretend this covers all Mormons...but I think it plays a part with some -- even sub-consciously

  • The Mormon Church's official statement on abortion [rape+ incest+mom's 'health'+'defect'+prayer-ok]

    12/16/2014 5:03:10 PM PST · 12 of 64
    Colofornian to All; Morgana
    For those wanting to look into why as to the timing of this thread, see thread posted yesterday by another FREEPER (Morgana)...who does us an EXCELLENT service on FR in posting many pro-life threads...(& some abortion media mindsets)

    See: Mormons hate polygamy thiiiiiiiiis much

    Morgana posted that blog -- written by Mormon blogger Jana Riess -- in which Jana cites a national survey of Mormons that while 86% of Lds oppose polygamy, by comparison, only 74% of Mormons oppose abortion.

    Why then is polygamy more "anathema" to Lds than the slaughter of the pre-born?

    Well, that involves a complex response...one I will address on that thread in a soon-coming post.

  • Mormons hate polygamy thiiiiiiiiis much

    12/16/2014 4:48:59 PM PST · 89 of 93
    Colofornian to Morgana; Elsie; ansel12; All
    So...let's break down these Mormon "a-okisms" to abortion, shall we? When do the Mormon gods' reps on earth deem violent warfare upon the womb to be fine & dandy, albeit a "serious" fine & dandy?

    (1) When the perpetrator engages in incest, so he can thereby re-abuse the minor -- this time by forcing her to cover up his violent/exploitative sexual rapes by way of an abortion.

    (2) When the perpetrator is a rapist, meaning the girl's (or woman's) will be violently invaded a second time, this time resulting in the death of another.

    (3a) When the "health" of the mother kicks in...whatever that means given that...
    ...* many doctors are either open to abortion referrals -- or -- who willingly themselves dismember the fetus...
    ...* and, therefore, wind up flunking any basic obstetrics textbook which treats the baby as a "second patient"...
    ...* leaving us to consider that these so-called rogue "physicians" define "health" as broadly as Roe vs Wade did! (And for those of you who don't readily recall how broad that definition was, just know that those black-robed rogues included "economic health" as justification for abortion-on-demand!)

    (3b) Furthermore, "competent physician" language used by the Mormon church in the 1970s and 1980s became obsolete once full-time abortionists and circuit-riding abortionists became the abortion "transaction" norm. For the past 25 years or so, approximately 90% of all abortions have been committed in free-standing abortion clinics -- NOT by "competent physicians" operating in either hospitals or their own private offices.

    (4) Besides "ditto" above re the again-used description of "competent" physicians, why would the Mormon Church entertain the idea that physicians are "prophets" who can successfully predict with 100% certainty that a baby's birth defects WILL result in death? I've personally spoken with numerous women who were told to abort by their so-called "competent" medical personnel due to some perceived "defect" of the fetus (Latin for "young one"), only to deliver a perfectly healthy baby!

    (5) Note then how the Mormon Church ushers God into the baby dismemberment business! As if God the Creator-God, after He has fearfully and wonderfully made each little one (see Psalm 139), would give suction aspirators the green light thru "prayer" to dismember His creative little ones whom Jesus warns about harming! (See Luke 17:2, for example -- and please note that the exact same Greek word there for "little ones" ...brephos is the SAME word used for the pre-born John the Baptist, who leapt in the womb upon hearing Aunt Mary's voice (Luke 1:44).

    Finally, note the "feel" word used by the Mormon Church as supposedly being able to determine the Mormon gods' edicts to put to death a pre-born baby. Some mere "feeling" of a woman or girl in a perceived "crisis" is enough to put the baby to death?

    God forbid!

  • The Mormon Church's official statement on abortion [rape+ incest+mom's 'health'+'defect'+prayer-ok]

    12/16/2014 4:48:07 PM PST · 5 of 64
    Colofornian to All
    For previous official statements made by the Mormon Church on abortion (1973, 1983-1984), see my post...
    ...here
  • Mormons hate polygamy thiiiiiiiiis much

    12/16/2014 4:44:13 PM PST · 88 of 93
    Colofornian to Morgana; Elsie; All
    ...all things Mormon. So please do me a favor? Post their beliefs on Abortion?

    Just posted an entire thread about it...which covers among the latest statements made by the Mormon Church (2011 Deseret News)

    For thread, see: The Mormon Church's official statement on abortion [rape+ incest+mom's 'health'+'defect'+prayer-ok]

    Previously to 2011 (covered in thread above), Mormon Church leadership has postulated several times on abortion...with official statements coming in 1973 (reaction to Roe vs. Wade) and then again in 1983 -- and, of course, ensuing additional statements but none of which curtailed the 1983 statement, which added incest as a reason for abortion (compared to '73 statement) + the '83 statement dropped the necessity that a pregnancy caused by rape or incest produce "serious emotional trauma in the mother" before an abortion was a-ok:

    1973:

    "The Church opposes abortion and counsels its members not to submit to or perform an abortion except in the rare cases where, in the opinion of competent medical counsel, the life or good health of the mother is seriously endangered or where the pregnancy was caused by rape and produces serious emotional trauma in the mother. Even then it should be done only after counseling with the local presiding priesthood authority and after receiving divine confirmation through prayer."
    Source: Lds.org: Policies and Procedures: Statement on Abortion: Harold B. Lee, N. Eldon Tanner, and Marion G. Romney (Note that Lee was the "prophet" on duty at that time, with Tanner and Marion G. Romney his two counselors forming what they call "The First Presidency")

    1983:

    "The Church policy statement on abortion explains under what circumstances and with what safeguards an abortion might be considered:...The only exceptions are the rare cases where, in the opinion of competent medical counsel, the life or health of the woman is in jeopardy or the pregnancy resulted from incest or rape. Even then, the woman should consider an abortion only after counseling with her husband and bishop or branch president, and receiving divine confirmation through prayer.”
    Source: Lds.org: Ensign magazine 30 years ago this very month (Dec 1984), citing the 1983 official Lds Church General Handbook of Instructions, pp. 77-78)

    The above was basically regurgitated in a 1991 statement...https://www.lds.org/ensign/1991/03/news-of-the-church/church-issues-statement-on-abortion?lang=eng

    In the thread covering the 2011 statement linked in the beginning portion of this post, I broke down ALL of these so-called abortion exceptions.

    And I'll repost them on the next post here on this thread.

  • The Mormon Church's official statement on abortion [rape+ incest+mom's 'health'+'defect'+prayer-ok]

    12/16/2014 4:38:54 PM PST · 2 of 64
    Colofornian to Morgana; Elsie; All

    Ping

  • The Mormon Church's official statement on abortion [rape+ incest+mom's 'health'+'defect'+prayer-ok]

    12/16/2014 4:38:29 PM PST · 1 of 64
    Colofornian
    Posted this thread in response to a query on another FR thread.

    So...let's break down these Mormon "a-okisms" to abortion, shall we? When do the Mormon gods' reps on earth deem violent warfare upon the womb to be fine & dandy, albeit a "serious" fine & dandy?

    (1) When the perpetrator engages in incest, so he can thereby re-abuse the minor -- this time by forcing her to cover up his violent/exploitative sexual rapes by way of an abortion.

    (2) When the perpetrator is a rapist, meaning the girl's (or woman's) will be violently invaded a second time, this time resulting in the death of another.

    (3a) When the "health" of the mother kicks in...whatever that means given that...
    ...* many doctors are either open to abortion referrals -- or -- who willingly themselves dismember the fetus...
    ...* and, therefore, wind up flunking any basic obstetrics textbook which treats the baby as a "second patient"...
    ...* leaving us to consider that these so-called rogue "physicians" define "health" as broadly as Roe vs Wade did! (And for those of you who don't readily recall how broad that definition was, just know that those black-robed rogues included "economic health" as justification for abortion-on-demand!)

    (3b) Furthermore, "competent physician" language used by the Mormon church in the 1970s and 1980s became obsolete once full-time abortionists and circuit-riding abortionists became the abortion "transaction" norm. For the past 25 years or so, approximately 90% of all abortions have been committed in free-standing abortion clinics -- NOT by "competent physicians" operating in either hospitals or their own private offices.

    (4) Besides "ditto" above re the again-used description of "competent" physicians, why would the Mormon Church entertain the idea that physicians are "prophets" who can successfully predict with 100% certainty that a baby's birth defects WILL result in death? I've personally spoken with numerous women who were told to abort by their so-called "competent" medical personnel due to some perceived "defect" of the fetus (Latin for "young one"), only to deliver a perfectly healthy baby!

    (5) Note then how the Mormon Church ushers God into the baby dismemberment business! As if God the Creator-God, after He has fearfully and wonderfully made each little one (see Psalm 139), would give suction aspirators the green light thru "prayer" to dismember His creative little ones whom Jesus warns about harming! (See Luke 17:2, for example -- and please note that the exact same Greek word there for "little ones" ...brephos is the SAME word used for the pre-born John the Baptist, who leapt in the womb upon hearing Aunt Mary's voice (Luke 1:44).

    Finally, note the "feel" word used by the Mormon Church as supposedly being able to determine the Mormon gods' edicts to put to death a pre-born baby. Some mere "feeling" of a woman or girl in a perceived "crisis" is enough to put the baby to death?

    God forbid!

  • When my church found out I worked for Planned Parenthood, they kicked me out. What if…

    12/16/2014 10:35:27 AM PST · 41 of 54
    Colofornian to reasonisfaith; Morgana; wbarmy; Cvengr; PAR35; Jonty30; MNDude; Salvation; All
    The answer is keep her in the church and minister to her.

    (You mean like what you might lecture the apostle Paul to have done with this man committing sin in the Church @ Corinth?):

    4 So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord. (1 Cor. 5:4-5)

    Brothers and sisters: Church discipline of ex-communicating people WAS a reality in the early Church -- and STILL is in many of its quarters. Its purpose is to "save" the person.

    You would think by listening to some on this thread -- and elsewhere -- that kicking someone out of a church has the exact opposite effect.

    (You be sure to invite me to your lecture of the apostle Paul when we get to heaven, ya hear?)

  • When my church found out I worked for Planned Parenthood, they kicked me out. What if…

    12/16/2014 10:29:15 AM PST · 40 of 54
    Colofornian to Cvengr; GeronL; Morgana; All
    When is the soul joined to the human body?

    You DO know, doncha, that the belief of "ensoulment" upon birth is what allowed Bill Clinton to slide away theologically and embrace abortion?

    Back in the 1990s, one of the major mags (think it was TIME mag) mentioned how Clinton went to a Little Rock Baptist church, whose pastor believed that ensoulment took place at birth...and therefore opened the door for Bill to embrace abortion.

    The Bible mentions how God knew both Jeremiah and the apostle Paul BEFORE they were born. And anybody reading the "ME" in Psalm 139 can't readily embracement birth ensoulment nonsense.

  • 22. "Praise to the Man": A Review of the Annual Joseph Smith Memorial Sermons ['Smithmasing']

    12/15/2014 9:56:40 PM PST · 8 of 31
    Colofornian to Nevadan; Elsie; All
    BTW, a number of years ago I went into the visitor’s center connected with one of the Mormon temples. I was shocked at the almost total focus on Joseph Smith in the presentation. Jesus Christ is on the name of the church. But His roll is definitely not even on par with the real god of Mormonism: Joseph Smith."

    Yes, and it's been even worse in certain years at BYU:

    In 2011, I posted this thread:
    The Joseph Smith Crèche at BYU, December 2005 [Mormon Merry Smithmas!]
    ...after FReeper "Flying Inman" like Elsie & others posted images like what you see below:

    * Dec. 12, 2005 Joseph Smith creche @ BYU
    * Joseph Smith creche

    In 2005, the Mormon worship of Smith was much worse because it was the 200th anniversary of Smith's Dec. 23, 1805 birthday.

    'PRAISING THE MAN' (JOSEPH SMITH) IN A NUTSHELL re: YEAR 2005

    2005 (Dec. 31) Lds Church News pronounces: ”Thousands across world offer 'praise to the man'. While the Conference Center stage was still dominated by the Christmas setting of The First Presidency Christmas Devotional and the Mormon Tabernacle Choir Christmas Concert, the village church, cottage and flocked evergreens hinted of Joseph Smith's Vermont. A prominent statue of the Prophet on the stage was a constant reminder of the purpose of the evening.” Lds Church News: Thousands across the world offer ‘praise to the man’ There ya have it...Smith worshiped...And the Lds leaders couldn't help but gush: "A prominent statue of the Prophet on the stage was a constant reminder of the purpose of the evening.”
    2005 (December) SmithEmphasisMas: Lds Church magazine Ensign returns to the “cradle” theme – one normally reserved for Jesus Christ in December: ”Sharon, Vermont, could rightly be called the cradle of the Restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ, for it was here that Joseph Smith Jr. was born on December 23, 1805. The fifth child of Joseph Sr. and Lucy Mack Smith, Joseph Jr. was nurtured and loved as he developed gradually into his role as the Prophet of “the dispensation of the fulness of times” (Eph. 1:10).” A Prophet’s Life: The Cradle—Sharon, Vermont [Mormon Merry Smithmas Day!] Mormon leaders applying "cradle theme" to Joseph Smith
    2005 (December) Lds "Prophet" Gordon B. Hinckley: "It is a constantly recurring mystery to me how some people speak with admiration for the Church and its work while at the same time disdaining him through whom, as a servant of the Lord, came the framework of all that the Church is, of all that it teaches, and of all that it stands for...Proclaiming a Prophet ...we acknowledge the Prophet; we proclaim him; we respect him; we reverence him...The story of Joseph’s life is the story of a miracle...Praise to the Man When I was a boy 12 years of age, my father took me to a meeting of the priesthood of the stake in which we lived. I sat on the back row while he, as president of the stake, sat on the stand. At the opening of that meeting, the first of its kind I had ever attended, 300 or 400 men stood. They were from varied backgrounds and many vocations, but each had in his heart. Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah!... Kings shall extol him, and nations revere.(“Praise to the Man,” Hymns, no. 27) ... Great is his glory and endless his priesthood...(Hymns, no. 27)...Ideas for Home Teachers 1. Show a picture of the Prophet Joseph Smith, and invite family members to tell what they know about him. Make a list of their responses...Discuss ways family members can better know the Prophet and his teachings. You may want to encourage family members to plan a special family activity on December 23rd to celebrate Joseph’s 200th birthday...Read or sing “Praise to the Man” (Hymns, no. 27), and study President Hinckley’s testimony..." Lds Ensign mag: Joseph Smith Jr. Prophet of God Mighty Servant see also: Joseph Smith Jr.—Prophet of God, Mighty Servant So the December 2005 Lds official mag -- the Ensign -- trumpets, "Proclaiming a Prophet ...we acknowledge the Prophet; we proclaim him; we respect him; we reverence him... ... whereas those in Christ procalim Jesus and reverence HIM -- ESPECIALLY at Christmas!
    2005 One of the most significant ongoing tributes to the Prophet Joseph Smith is the annual Joseph Smith Memorial Firesides...These...began in 1944 and have been held each year since, as close as possible to December 23, Joseph Smith’s birthday...This being the case, appropriately we sing, “Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah!...Praise to his memory...Honored and blest be his ever great name!” For the time is not far distant when “millions shall know Brother Joseph again...” Read more at "Praise To The Man": A Review Of The Annual Joseph Smith Memorial Sermons; see also “Praise To The Man”: A Review Of The Annual Joseph Smith Memorial Sermons [Mormon Merry Smithmas] So, instead of focusing on Jesus Christ's birthday the third week of December. In Mormonism, Smith's "birthday is heralded around the world..." and "People of every land and of every race are coming to honor the birthday of the Prophet Joseph Smith...” Well, that's interesting. The average non-Mormon might think that the Mormon hymnal, "Praise to the Man" is about Jesus Christ. But you would be wrong. It's praising Joseph Smith! Praising the memory of Joseph Smith. Honoring and blessing Joseph Smith. And in the hymn, is the "key" to know Jesus Christ? No.Wrong again: ..."the time is not far distant when 'millions shall know Brother Joseph again..."  
    2005 (Feb. 19) Lds Church News: "The more I learn of him, the more I love and revere him." (Lds "apostle" Joseph B. Wirthlin) p. 5 More "reverence" for Joseph Smith
  • 22. "Praise to the Man": A Review of the Annual Joseph Smith Memorial Sermons ['Smithmasing']

    12/15/2014 9:29:48 PM PST · 6 of 31
    Colofornian to PROCON

    Merry CHRISTmas, indeed!

  • 22. "Praise to the Man": A Review of the Annual Joseph Smith Memorial Sermons ['Smithmasing']

    12/15/2014 8:52:57 PM PST · 2 of 31
    Colofornian to All
    This image seems appropriate: Oh Yeah! And Don't Forget Jesus!
  • 22. "Praise to the Man": A Review of the Annual Joseph Smith Memorial Sermons ['Smithmasing']

    12/15/2014 8:48:42 PM PST · 1 of 31
    Colofornian
    From the article:

    ...“One other idea that was revolutionary and is still revolutionary is to take away the idea of the limitation that one supposes exists for man...He replaced it...there is no limit to how high man might go...he could go beyond any limit...”

    Yes, indeed. When you have a Mormon god who didn't start off as "divine" ... but worked his way up from manhood to godhood, indeed, you have a religion with THE ultimate human potential. (In fact, the human potential movement...full of cultic activity left and right, has nothing on the Mormon Church!)

    The above was spoken by an Lds general authority on this date -- December 15 -- almost six decades ago...
    ...at the THEN 15th annual "Joseph Smith Memorial" firesides...
    ...In fact, Joseph Smith was THE focus of these December firesides from 1944 through 1973. (The memorial firesides were kept up thereafter; however, with general authorities' busy seasonal schedules, they were moved to first January and some were even scheduled for various February calendars

    As Lds author Thomas E. Thunell recounted the various "highlights" over the years of these Memorials...
    ...(1) instead of focusing on Jesus Christ's birthday the third week of December -- too oft' inn Mormonism, Smith's Dec. 23rd "birthday is heralded around the world..." and "People of every land and of every race are coming to honor the birthday of the Prophet Joseph Smith...”
    ...(2) Per Elder David B. Haight, in the Mormon presentation of Joseph Smith, "the Lord" plays the role of the "shepherd" pointing to Joseph Smith...(versus a shepherd in the field pointing to the Christ child)
    ...(3a) I would have THOUGHT from reading my Bible that Jesus Christ is the one who "lives in the hearts" of God's people...
    ...And (3b) that Jesus Christ "lies at the heart of it all"...
    ...And (3c) that Jesus Christ is the ONE for whom we are to "obtain" a "personal witness" to...
    ...And (3d) that Jesus Christ's "work and mission" is to be the True Source of "the greatest activity in this world or the world to come..."

    But after readin' all these rave oft-December reviews about Joseph Smith, I guess I was wrong! The Mormons say it's to be Joseph Smith!

    And (4)...also from the article: ...This being the case, appropriately we sing, “Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah!...Praise to his memory...Honored and blest be his ever great name!” For the time is not far distant when “millions shall know Brother Joseph again...”

    You might think this common Mormon hymn in the Mormon hymnal, "Praise to the Man" is about Jesus Christ. But then, you'd be wrong. It's praising Joseph Smith!
    Praising the memory of Joseph Smith.
    Honoring and blessing Joseph Smith.
    And in the hymn, is the "key" to know Jesus Christ?
    No.
    Wrong again.

    Per the hymnal's lyrics:


    ..."the time is not far distant when 'millions shall know Brother Joseph again...'"

    OK, who will be the first poster to come in and say to ALL of the above Mormonesque nonsense, "Ba! Humbug!"??

  • Column: Sex and the Latter-day Saints [Mormons admit the past]

  • Column: Sex and the Latter-day Saints [Mormons admit the past]

    12/09/2014 9:16:35 AM PST · 38 of 62
    Colofornian to Tennessee Nana
    Smith...A sword-wielding angel forced him to take up a life of sanctioned promiscuity...

    (And somehow this "angel" didn't see fit to make a personal appearance to Joe's wife, Emma, eh? Hmmmmm...)

  • Column: Sex and the Latter-day Saints [Mormons admit the past]

    12/09/2014 9:14:52 AM PST · 37 of 62
    Colofornian to AppyPappy; Loyalist; All
    Nah, more like married just so they can spend eternity together

    {And THIS is one of the reasons why Mormons STILL think they are practicing polygamy in 2014...and, no, don't expect an "essay" to be issued by the front office in SLC: There are at LEAST THREE Lds current "general authorities" who have been married in the Mormon temple -- supposedly "for eternity" -- each to TwO different women! Which means in Mormon terms, supposedly, upon all of their deaths & 'arrival' in Celestialville -- these men (Oaks, Perry, Nelson) each becomes an eternal polygamist}

    What is absolutely "funny" is how these Mormon leaders eschew present-tense polygamy...
    ...do cartwheels to be linked with fundamentalist polygamy...
    ...skirt past their broader Mormon-wide polygamous past in thousands of ways thru the decades...
    ...all while personal polygamy supposedly awaits these three...

    Can you say religious h-y-p-o-c-r-i-s-y???

  • Column: Sex and the Latter-day Saints [Mormons admit the past]

    12/09/2014 5:31:42 AM PST · 22 of 62
    Colofornian to ronniesgal
    and Mormons don’t drink alcohol!

    (I don't know about Brigham Young, but Joseph Smith for a while owned his own bar)

  • Column: Sex and the Latter-day Saints [Mormons admit the past]

    12/09/2014 5:30:19 AM PST · 20 of 62
    Colofornian to AppyPappy; Elsie; All
    I read a book about Romney’s polygamous ancestors. They had to move to Mexico in order to keep up their polygamous practices

    (Yes, which is why the author labels them as "sexual fugitives")

    Anthony W. Ivins was the Juarez stake president from 1896 to 1907 or 08. (He was called to be an Lds "apostle" in 1907).

    His son, H. Grant Ivins, wrote a 14-page piece about polygamy in Mexico:

    Polygamy in Mexico as Practiced by the Mormon Church, 1895-1905

    VERY eye-opening!

    {One Lds leader -- part of the top three in the hierarchy of the church instructed Ivins to lie about the Lds practice of polygamy: To indicate the desire on the part of the Church Presidency to keep these marriages secret and even to maintain secrecy as to the practice of polygamy, my father told me, “almost in the same breath, George Q. Cannon said, ‘Now Brother Ivins, if you have occasion to meet Porfio Diaz, President of Mexico, we want you to tell him that we are NOT practicing polygamy in Mexico.” At a much later date, during the Smoot Investigation, my father was invited (I use the word advisedly) to come to Washington and testify that they were not practicing polygamy in Mexico. I use the word “invited” because my father did not go to Washington. He told me that he refused to go on two grounds: “It is none of the Senate’s business what the Mormons we're doing in Mexico, and further, I refused to perjure myself.” (page 2)}

    Here's another interesting quote from page 4 of the testimony written by Ivin's son:

    That the practice carried on in Mexico was known to the General Authorities cannot be doubted. Many of them visited the Colonies where they could not fail to become aware of what was going on. Among those who came to Mexico on official Church business, some of them many times, were John W. Taylor, Mathias F. Cowley, Hyrum Smith, son of Joseph F. Smith, A. Owen Woodruff, son of Wilford W oodruff, Heber J. Grant, Amasa M. Lyman, B. H. Roberts of the Council of Seventy, and President Joseph F. Smith. These men, with few exceptions, preached with fervor the doctrine that plural marriage was a pre-requisite to celestial exaltation. They urged the young men in the Colonies to accept and practice the principle. Many of them brought pressure to bear on my father to take a second wife, a pressure which he steadfastly resisted. He once said to me, “The Doctrine and Covenants says that those to whom the doctrine is revealed should accept and practice it. It has never been revealed to me that I should do so.” (page 4...link above)

  • Column: Sex and the Latter-day Saints [Mormons admit the past]

    12/09/2014 4:53:54 AM PST · 16 of 62
    Colofornian to All
    (Well, certainly 'tis an appropo time of year to discuss all of this...Nine years ago this week):

    Large billboard outside Harold B. Lee Library December 12, 2005

  • Column: Sex and the Latter-day Saints [Mormons admit the past]

    12/09/2014 4:14:58 AM PST · 13 of 62
    Colofornian to awelliott
    I don't know about you, but 55 wives, 57 children, and one husband strikes me as a pretty large family. }8^D

    :)

    Indeed!

    (Of course, had those 55 women married a monogamist, you're talking HUNDREDS of kids!)

  • Column: Sex and the Latter-day Saints [Mormons admit the past]

    12/09/2014 4:08:35 AM PST · 10 of 62
    Colofornian to iowamark
    A man who can juggle 55 wives must be quite a diplomat.

    (Or iron-fisted enough)

  • Column: Sex and the Latter-day Saints [Mormons admit the past]

    12/09/2014 4:07:55 AM PST · 9 of 62
    Colofornian to Sherman Logan; All
    I am really unclear why the article claims the LDS just fessed up. This has all been public knowledge for decades or perhaps a century.

    There's a HUGE difference between covering the subject directly and forthrightly and either censoring it, or covering it indirectly.

    For example, many bios are written by Lds leaders on their historical "prophets." ALL of the Mormon prophets through part of World War II were polygamists (Grant being the last).

    When you look thru most Lds church bios, and books, on these "prophets" -- the polygamous wives are usually not addressed.

    For example, Emma Smith is often cited as Joseph's wife. But the rest of his "wives" are not.

  • Column: Sex and the Latter-day Saints [Mormons admit the past]

    12/09/2014 4:03:42 AM PST · 7 of 62
    Colofornian to All
    I mentioned in a previous post two other recommended books for those who would like to research Mormon polygamy.

    Well on Dec. 2, The Salt Lake Tribune ran this piece:
    Rolly: Deseret News rejects ads for Mormon polygamy books

    A brief excerpt of that Dec. 2 article reads:
    "The Salt Lake Tribune recently ran ads for Signature Books promoting two of its books about polygamy in the LDS Church’s early days, "In Sacred Loneliness" by Todd Compton and "Mormon Polygamy" by the late Richard Van Wagoner, which was originally published in the 1980s. The ads did not appear in the LDS Church-owned Deseret News. The paper refused to run them. That puzzled Tom Kimball, marketing director for Signature Books, since The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints recently released several essays about Mormon polygamy, shedding light on the subject and acknowledging the plural marriages of LDS founder Joseph Smith. In fact, the church essays cite "In Sacred Loneliness," which won an award from the Mormon History Association. When Kimball asked why the Deseret News would turn down an innocuous ad on a historical issue LDS officials are attempting to address, he was told by an editor that polygamy is just too hot of a topic."

    So here the Mormon Church sees fit to publish this Fall its own essay on polygamy. Such an essay cites one of the above-mentioned books. But when the publisher of said book attempts to advertise in the Mormon-Church-owned Deseret News, the ad gets rejected as "too hot."

    (More typical censorship by the Mormon Church)

    Mormons: Doncha want to read about the sexual lifestyles of your spiritual ancestors...what your leaders "patronizingly" deem as "too hot" for you?

  • Column: Sex and the Latter-day Saints [Mormons admit the past]

    12/09/2014 3:57:40 AM PST · 5 of 62
    Colofornian to samtheman; All
    Thanks. For some reason, the last three letters of the URL got chopped off: Column: Sex and the Latter-day Saints
  • Column: Sex and the Latter-day Saints [Mormons admit the past]

    12/09/2014 3:55:27 AM PST · 4 of 62
    Colofornian to All
    From the column: ...The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints...has had a particularly hard time reconciling its radical founding principles with its white-bread contemporary image. Imagine Mitt Romney with a harem, and you have some idea of the kind of men who planted a new church in the West... Remember when Mitt Romney tried to explain how his ancestors came from Mexico?...In fact, they were sexual fugitives...

    "Sexual fugitives" indeed!

    Many Mormons either moved to Mexico so that the polygamous lifestyles could be lived beyond the reach of authorities...or, as B. Carmon Hardy outlines in his book, Solemn Covenant: THE MORMON POLYGAMOUS PASSAGE...many Lds would head to Mexico to have an additional plural wife sanctioned by the Mormon Church...and the trip would "double" as a yet "another" honeymoon for the polygamist.

    If you want to get the "skinny" on historic Mormon polygamy, I'll mention two books in the next post -- two books, which, coincidentally, were mentioned in a Salt Lake Tribune article that ran the same day as this article (Dec. 2, 2014).

  • Column: Sex and the Latter-day Saints [Mormons admit the past]

    12/09/2014 3:49:44 AM PST · 2 of 62
    Colofornian to All
    From the column: ...The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints...has had a particularly hard time reconciling its radical founding principles with its white-bread contemporary image. Imagine Mitt Romney with a harem, and you have some idea of the kind of men who planted a new church in the West. So, it’s been fascinating to watch the reaction to the acknowledgment last month by Mormon leaders that Joseph Smith...took as many as 40 wives. Some...women were also married to other men. One of his brides was a 14-year-old girl, or as church officials put it in an essay, she was “sealed” to Smith “several months before her 15th birthday.” Well, that changes everything. Smith...came to his decision only under duress, the church explained: A sword-wielding angel forced him to take up a life of sanctioned promiscuity...And there was a creepy grooming aspect in how the Mormon founder picked his brides. Mary Elizabeth Rollins was 12 years old when Smith told her...God had commanded him to take her as a plural wife, according to the author Linda King Newell. She later married him at 23, wife No. 9... Remember when Mitt Romney tried to explain how his ancestors came from Mexico?...In fact, they were sexual fugitives...

    * Smith marrying women -- as in the double digits -- who were ALREADY married (& remained married to these other men)
    * Smith marrying a 14 year old
    * Smith "grooming" a 12 year old to become his wife #9.

  • Column: Sex and the Latter-day Saints [Mormons admit the past]

    12/09/2014 3:47:08 AM PST · 1 of 62
    Colofornian
    From the column: ...When ushered into the master bedroom of the Mormon patriarch Brigham Young at his winter home in St. George, Utah, a few years ago, I felt duty-bound to ask an obvious question: Where did the other women sleep? Other women? The church tour guide blushed, and laser-stared me as if I’d blasphemed the Mormon Moses. I wondered about arrangements and jealousies, the conjugal timing of a man who was married to 55 women, by most accounts. I didn’t ask about the sexual acrobatics of the great pioneer, just the spreadsheet logistics of managing all those spouses.

    (Indeed. Sounds like that without computers, A Master Control Tower for Brigham's bedroom should have been constructed).

    Oh...and for those who embraced the myth that polygamy enhanced "large families" ... that just "ain't so." At least from historical studies comparing women who had sanctioned promiscuous husbands (polygamists) vs. wives whose husbands were monogamous. Studies have shown that the average number of children per mom was reduced by one child for those in plural-union arrangements.

    Take Brigham Young, for example...55 wives...but only 57 kids...Essentially one child per mom...hardly even close to the 19th-century "average."