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Posts by Colofornian

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  • ‘Blood Moon’ Lunar Eclipse Visible April 14-15, Beginning Rare Series Of Total Eclipses

    04/08/2014 1:58:28 PM PDT · 21 of 45
    Colofornian to Jack Hydrazine; All
    Four ‘blood-red’ total lunar eclipses will fall on Passover and Sukkot in 2014 and 2015, the same back-to-back occurrences at the time of 1492, 1948 and 1967

    There were no blood moons in 1948.

    This is where the experts "fudge" a little bit.

    The blood moons were 1949-1950.

    The reason 1948 is referenced so often is Israel's declared statehood in May 1948. But this was 11 months before the April blood moon of 1949.

    (So God is off by a year in His calculations?)

  • John Piper Responds to Pastor David Yonggi Cho's Conviction for Embezzling $12M

    04/06/2014 6:17:43 PM PDT · 12 of 13
    Colofornian to PAR35

    (Thanx for the correction)

  • John Piper Responds to Pastor David Yonggi Cho's Conviction for Embezzling $12M

    04/06/2014 4:50:43 PM PDT · 9 of 13
    Colofornian to SeekAndFind; All
    From the article: Yonggi Cho who pastors Yoido Full Gospel Church and oversees a network of churches numbering 800,000, was found guilty by a South Korean court for committing breach of trust and corruption amounting to $12 million, according to Yonhap News Agency. He received a suspended sentence of three years in prison with a five year probation and was ordered to pay a penalty of $4.7 million by Seoul Central District Court on Feb. 20.

    Well, let's see: He pilfers at least 12 mil...
    ...has to pay back $4.7 mil of that...
    ...which leaves pilfer "earnings" of at least $7.3 mil...
    ...And in exchange for that $7.3 mil...
    ...he does three years' prison time...
    ...Which means, in effect, that the church is paying him over $2.4 mil a year for three years to sit in jail and probably write his next book (& sermons for when he gets out)...

    Sounds pretty cushy to me.

  • Harry Reid personally pressured DHS on behalf of son’s casino project

    04/06/2014 8:45:57 AM PDT · 30 of 30
    Colofornian to WilliamRobert
    There is noway a person can answer the questions possed on a Temple recommand interview and be an active Democrat. Their beliefs are contary to anything Jesus Christ ever taught. Harry Screed is a Jack Mormon.

    An outright falsehood. Reid is a sanctioned Lds "visiting teacher" in a D.C. Ward.

  • Mormon women look for entrance to priesthood

    04/06/2014 8:41:16 AM PDT · 25 of 26
    Colofornian to markomalley; All
    Well, let's see...they had prophetesses in the early Christian church...Anna (Luke 2:36) + Philip's four daughters (Acts 21:8-9)...Would the Mormon Church claim them to be disharmonious for daring to prophesy?

    This need to somehow "protect the priesthood" is where the Mormon church turns the word "priest" 100% upside down.

    When you read the Bible, a "priest" was one who represented the people before God (intercession). The "prophet" was one who represented God before the people.

    Mormon leaders constantly claim the priesthood represents God before the people, but that is pure Biblical distortion.

    Peter taught about the priesthood of all believers (1 Peter 2:4-9) -- as did John (Rev. 1:5-6).

  • Sexual revolution leaving American women plagued by anxiety disorders

    01/25/2014 12:29:17 PM PST · 35 of 102
    Colofornian to usalady; All
    Instead of bringing happiness women are 60% more likely than men to experience an anxiety disorder over their lifetime and taking antidepressant medication to alleviate their distress

    Yes, sexual and social expectations; sexual manipulation and exploitation and lack of male commitment is all take an anxiety/depression toll upon women. That is indeed a MAJOR factor. But it's not the ONLY major factor.

    For example, Mormon women are known to be more chaste pre-marriage -- and marriage is harped upon Mormon males in the Mormon culture. But what do we find in Utah, which was about 60% Mormon in the articles cited below?

    Utah anxiety/depression:

    Even BYU concedes the problem: Risk Factors and the Prevalence of Depression in Mormon Women

    From: Two Studies Find Depression Widespread in Utah:

    "Neither study was broken down by gender, but nationally women are twice as likely to be diagnosed with depressive disorders as men, experts told ABC News.Psychiatrists point to several factors that could contribute to Utah's high levels of depression: limited mental health resources, restricted access to treatment as a result of cost, poor quality of resources and a varied list of other factors, including an under funded educational system and a culture deeply rooted in the Mormon faith. 'In Mormon culture females are supposed accept a calling. They are to be constantly smiling over their family of five. They are supposed to take supper across the street to an ill neighbor and then put up with their husband when he comes home from work and smile about it the whole time. There is this sense that Mrs. Jones down street is doing the same thing, and there is this undercurrent of competition. To be a good mother and wife, women have to put on this mask of perfection. They can't show their tears, depression or agony,' Canning said. 'Obedience, conformity and maintaining a sense of harmony" are unspoken but widely recognized behaviors, which all contribute to what he calls "the Mother of Zion syndrome."

    Other sources re: Utah:
    * ”Utah is known nationwide for the wrong reason. 'Utah has a pharmaceutical drug problem,' said Jeffery Sweetin, the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration special agent who oversees Utah...a 2007 report said had the country's highest rate of nonmedical painkiller abuse.”
    Source headline: Utah has new prescription for painkiller problem (April 15, 2009)

    See also:
    * UVU professor's study puts focus on LDS women and depression (published by Mormon church-owned Deseret News)
    * Study: 'Toxic Perfectionism' Major Part of LDS Women's Depression (published by Mormon church-owned KSL.com)
    * Viewpoint: Dispelling the darkness [One BYU student recounts her battle with depression] (Written by a BYU student in a BYU publication)
    * Religion: Depression and the (Mormon) church
    * We've got the blues: Report labels Utah most depressed state in nation (Salt Lake Tribune)

  • Sexual revolution leaving American women plagued by anxiety disorders

    01/25/2014 11:14:48 AM PST · 27 of 102
    Colofornian to jjotto; All
    Very briefly mentioned by Karl Marx and even referenced I think in Animal Farm is the idea that women will be held “in common” and available to all.

    (And then there was the 19th century Mormon polygamy "ideal"...where men could amass extra wives...some 2, some 3, some 5, some a dozen--like Romney's great-grandpa -- some 27, some with 45...thereby effectively hoarding them and leaving up to half of the Mormon male population in the 1880s and early 1890s with no Mormon female to partner up with)

  • Francis: Christian or Muslim, the faith your parents instilled in you will help you move on

    01/20/2014 4:53:46 PM PST · 10 of 55
    Colofornian to ebb tide

    he doesn’t only need a pr clinic...but a cursillo...a short course in christianity

  • Francis: Christian or Muslim, the faith your parents instilled in you will help you move on

    01/20/2014 4:51:55 PM PST · 9 of 55
    Colofornian to ebb tide

    Here’s another presumption with that statement: that no converts to either christianity or islam exist...how torn-shred is that for a presumption?

  • Francis: Christian or Muslim, the faith your parents instilled in you will help you move on

    01/20/2014 4:49:46 PM PST · 6 of 55
    Colofornian to ebb tide

    Does this include “moving on” to heaven...or is that completely irrelevant to the pope?

  • "Watch and Remember": The New Testament and the Great Apostasy

    01/17/2014 1:24:08 PM PST · 37 of 53
    Colofornian to wheat_grinder; All
    Nope not classic fail on my part. Classic fail on yours for ignoring my suggestion to do your own research and leave bias out. The part of the article I quoted was the only one I agreed with.

    Hey, the article portion you cited (& agreed with) was: "...the doctrines which its inspired leaders taught were corrupted and changed by others not of similar inspiration -- and the very context of that line came after this: "Latter-day Saint theology asserts...the church of Jesus and his apostles came to an end..."

    Now to be fair, you probably didn't know when Mormon theology stipulates that supposedly "the church of Jesus and his apostles came to an end..."... you may have simply thought this was an eventual end -- and not a "sudden death" when the last of the apostles died.

    Hence, your additional comment: "Since the council of Nicea onward the “Church” has added unto the gospel message."

    Now I don't disagree that the Rome-based church has at times added to the Gospel.

    But...#1...that's a different statement than claiming that 100% of the church failed...
    and #2...that it failed pre-Nicene council...
    (which is what the Mormons claim)

    If I were you, I'd be careful agreeing with ANY organization (like the Mormon church) about the alleged 100% apostasy of Jesus' church...because the Mormon slam is a direct slam upon Jesus that He couldn't sustain His church! _

    If you're only talking about how some doctrines have at times undergone corruption, that's understood.

  • The Holy Trinity: Sound Doctrine or a Man-Made Tradition?

    01/16/2014 9:47:27 PM PST · 693 of 773
    Colofornian to restornu; DouglasKC; All
    Explain please where Doug KC blasphemed against the Holy Spirit?

    I didn't accuse him of that...only of treading upon sacred ground where he might be heading in that direction.

    Why?

    Thomas Nelson Bible Dictionary, entry for "Blasphemy" (1986/1995, p. 220):

    Blasphemy defined as...

    "the act of..." [either]
    "cursing"
    "slandering"
    "reviling"
    "or showing contempt"
    "or lack of reverence for God"

    So...parallels in this thread?

    Douglas has indeed shown a lack of reverence for the divine Holy Spirit, depersonalizing Him, and reducing Him as less personal than even animals are, when the clear Scriptural evidence is the reverse.

    Beyond that, God alone knows his heart; so I don't go there (1 Samuel 16:7).

    And, btw, Restornu, blasphemy goes beyond blasphemy vs. the Holy Spirit:

    For example...

    your post #445:

    "BTW the Bible was put together by MEN not the Holy Ghost...Now the content of the Books contain the word of God is only as accurate as the scribes translated them, Even Jesus has trouble in his conversations with the scribes and Pharisees and Sadducees."

    Along with DouglasKC's post #424, where he cites a Peter reference to "untaught and unstable men" -- implying these men were behind "translating Scriptures":

    "I believe there are errors and bias in the translation of scriptures. I believe that things were added to the original inspired scriptures. And I think it's been going on for a long time." (#424)

    In Titus 2:5, the word used for maligning the Word of God is the Greek word blasphemeo.

    The KJV, the NASB, and many other versions retain this Greek Word about the need to NOT blaspheme/malign God's Word!

  • LDS Church follows Christ's 'blueprint,' speaker says [Lds leader says other churches invalid]

    01/16/2014 6:28:33 PM PST · 23 of 62
    Colofornian to All; Elsie
    From the excerpted article:

    Christ’s blueprint...is very specific regarding ordinances that are to be performed...particularly baptism. “Once someone crosses the doctrinal bridge and acknowledges that baptism is essential for salvation (which it is), then logically he is led to believe in baptism for the dead — there is no escaping it,” Elder Callister said. “Otherwise, how does one answer the difficult question: What about those who died without the opportunity to be baptized?”...

    Tell me, Elder Callister:

    How does Mormonism begin to answer all the following NINE difficult questions re: Baptism of the Dead!!!

    #1

    Do you think pre-Gutenberg printed records will drop out of the sky, or be dug up etched in golden plates in Hill Cumorahs all over the world?

    #2

    You seriously think that the vast records of people in the Dark Ages and before the Dark Ages, down to their very birth name (required for Lds baptisms), will be found? (If not, then drop this silly idealism of "saving" whoever has ever lived!!! It's a false ideal part of a false hope of a false gospel)

    #3

    Given that Lds leaders tend to make this magnanimous appeal to "fairness" that ALL will have the opportunity to receive the "Mormon gospel" in the after-life, why don't you talk about the "Mormon fine print here?" (Like, "uh, yeah, it's kind of dependent upon us finding all their birth records & such, doesn't it?...you know B.C...early A.D....dark ages...illiterate people...etc. etc. etc.")

    #4

    How are Mormons going to be able to baptize people they never knew existed...? (Most people who have ever lived have fallen beyond "recorded history")

    #5

    Given that the necro-baptism "beast" that needs to be fed includes...
    ...full names...
    ...date born; date died...
    ...where are Mormons going to secure this info for the vast numbers of people who've lived in history?

    #6

    What % of all the people who have ever lived are even in your data banks?

    #7

    Hasn't the scandal of baptizing Jewish holocaust victims (and other celebrities) made it even more difficult for Mormons to proxy-baptize non-relatives? (Once the baptism of Jewish holocaust scandals was revealed -- along with other embarrassing celebrities and infamous (Hitler) necro-baptisms -- the Mormon church insisted to its members new "guidelines" that these members were only to proxy-baptize their own relatives...further making it highly improbable that not very many non-Americans and non-Europeans would be necro-baptized)

    #8

    Lds apologist Daniel C. Peterson appealed to "fairness" in this article: Defending the Faith: What about those who have never heard? [How Lds promote baptism of dead]. Yet, as we can see here, the Mormon church has a terrible "logistical" issue here that Mr. Peterson didn't bring up over that lunch with a Protestant clergyman and his wife: Lds are 1.7% of the U.S. population...but that includes inactive "jack" Mormons still on the books. And worldwide, that % shrinks to morsel level...especially when you consider the Muslim world, the Communist world, the African world, and the Asian world. So...imagine you're part of a group that has less than 10 million active members worldwide...and only a few million that claim active access to your inner sanctum temple. And then, I as your "prophet" tell you that you only have to come up with the names and birth and death records of the billions of people who've ever lived...including pre-Gutenberg times (pre-1456). Tell us, Mr. Peterson: How "fair" is that to all those who left no trace of their existence? (What? Does the Mormon god favor only the literate? What? Does the Mormon god favor primarily those who lived in literate areas beyond Gutenberg times? Or does the Mormon god favor only the church members of the 17th & 18th & 19th centuries for which the Lds church is more likely to glean records than most public sources?)

    #9

    Why did Lds apologist Daniel Peterson -- and the formal Lds church -- accuse the Christian God in the article linked in question #8 of being "unjust"? To cite Peterson: "Our conversation...turned to the ultimate fate of the unevangelized...To make the question specific, I proposed the hypothetical case of a medieval Chinese peasant who...had never traveled more than perhaps 20 miles from his home and who had never so much as encountered the name of Jesus. 'He’s damned,' the clergyman said...I responded that such a fate seemed terribly unjust, since this Chinese peasant had never had a fair chance — actually, he’d had no chance at all — to hear the gospel...."

    Note: In place of what Christians believe about those outside of Christ, Peterson offered the supposed Mormon view -- Baptism of the dead -- which allegedly offers "a fair chance" for such a "medieval Chinese peasant". Peterson ended his commentary by claiming that the Mormon belief "in the vicarious redemption of the dead" is somehow "a fair and solid solution to" this "problem."

    First of all, what is Peterson the Mormon apologist presuming about this "medieval Chinese peasant" -- from a Mormon baptism of dead perspective, anyway?

    Well, Lds don't baptize nameless phantoms of the past en masse. No, that's what their massive genealogical enterprise is all about: Capturing govt records; capturing church history rosters; capturing names & dates off of tombstones.

    So Peterson makes up this spotlight about some medieval Chinese peasant. Yet how many birthnames & birth-death dates does the Mormon church really have about medieval Chinese peasants -- many/most of whom were likely either illiterate or highly illiterate???

    Several years ago on a thread, one FREEPER pointed out that: "Very few of the humans who have inhabited this earth were buried in graves - with head stones or plinths" -- so even recovering such names from the pre-Gutenberg era becomes a major challenge for anybody, especially the Mormon genealogical enterprise.

    Lds apologist Peterson's problem goes beyond the tombstoneless dead of history. I mean, the Lds church can't even tell you everybody who's alive on the planet now -- even 100 years from now, they won't be able to name even close to all those who lived in the year 2013 on Planet Earth.

    Yet, Mormons claim proxy baptism is universal (or will be).

    Have Mormons bothered to ever do the math?

    Let's go with a young earth math theory for the moment -- that the earth is only 6,000 years old.
    #1 A few experts have concluded that if this is the case, we may have had still 30-60 billion people who have ever lived on the earth.
    #2, Now, if the Earth suffers few major catastrophes over the next almost 1,000 years, how many people could the earth have by the year 3,000? (One estimate from WikiAnswers suggests 80-110 billion).
    http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_people_will_there_be_in_the_year_3000
    #3 Now, toss in perhaps another 400-450 billion people who will have lived and died in the year 2000, 2100, 2200, etc. before the year 3,000 comes upon us.

    My point? By the year 3000 Mormons may have to smoke their computer genealogical war machine room to accommodate 500-600 billion plus people who lived from 4,000 B.C. to 3,000 A.D.

    Now, since Lds believe that such baptisms aren't done other than by proxy, please, Mr. Peterson, provide for us a "mathematical breakdown" of how this is supposedly "fair."

    For example, tell us: How many proxy baptisms will the average Mormon teen-ager have to perform in the temple over the next 13 generations (keep in mind the exact % of Mormon teens even involved in this process) to crank up the Mormon necro-baptism number to an eventual 500-600 billion?

    You see, Mr. Peterson, this is what happens when you let incredulity rule even basic logic. Mormons are "sold" on the "fairness" & "Justness" & "equality" argument that the door is (or eventually will be) "open" to "all."

    But when you start asking them to define "all," they slouch away.
    By "all," do you mean the pre-Gutenberg billions? (Uh...)
    By "all," do you mean the "no records exist" for those who lived in the teen A.D. centuries? (Uh...)
    By "all," do you mean the lack of worldwide temples & manpower mandated to even meet the current Lds fastfood Necro baptism machine need? (Never mind that no matter how many volunteers they grind up in their computer appetite clamoring for "More food...More food," it'll never ever catch up)

    So, do tell Mr. Peterson of your "math formula" for necro-baptizing the billions and billions and billions of known people ... never even mind the 30-60 billion who have already lived & whom you can't find any extant records for!

    Bottom-line: You, see...in Mormonism, Christ as THE Savior gets diluted by sheer ritualism...genealogy...an unhealthy obsession with the dead...and then usurped as THE Savior!

  • "Watch and Remember": The New Testament and the Great Apostasy

    01/16/2014 5:43:01 PM PST · 32 of 53
    Colofornian to Jim Noble
    So, do they believe that the Gates of Hell prevailed?

    Good question.

    Answer "yes"...

    But they would attempt to qualify that, I believe, by saying that 1700 years or so was only a "temporary" triumph of Satan over Jesus.

  • The Holy Trinity: Sound Doctrine or a Man-Made Tradition?

    01/16/2014 5:38:35 PM PST · 686 of 773
    Colofornian to DouglasKC
    Douglas, this is a personal warning to you, offered to you with much love:

    In the book I cited a few posts ago (House and Carle, Doctrine Twisting) these co-authors cited Ephesians 4:30 a few times and then they begin to close out a chapter with a chilling warning...

    But before I cite them, allow me to quote a verse I brought up much earlier in this thread...Isaiah 63:10:

    Yet they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit.

    So he turned and became their enemy and HE HIMSELF fought against them.

    Douglas, why would you not only militate against the very language of the Scriptures, but also place yourself in such spiritual jeopardy of having the Holy Spirit fight against you?

    House and Carle, p. 119:

    "One can lie to and grieve only a person. Neither can one blaspheme a force. No radar beam has ever received--or is likely to receive--insults. [authors here are referencing Heb. 10:29] Only a very holy and sensitive person can be blasphemed: the Holy Spirit can be blasphemed and grieved to such a degree that Scripture declared the sin unforgivable (Mt. 12:31; Mk 3:29). Those are chilling prospects."

  • The Holy Trinity: Sound Doctrine or a Man-Made Tradition?

    01/16/2014 5:24:22 PM PST · 685 of 773
    Colofornian to DouglasKC; GarySpFc; Greetings_Puny_Humans; All
    Gary/ALL:

    One of THE absolute worst so-called "translations" of the Bible is the Jehovah's Witnesses New World 'Translation' by the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society.

    It's provoked many to respond to the way it tortures so many of the Biblical texts.

    One such book was a 1982 Presbyterian & Reformed Publishing book by Robert H. Countess called The Jehovah's Witnesses' New Testament.

    You see, the JWs have done what the Armstrong cult has done, along with its splinter groups: Depersonalize the Holy Spirit and militate vs. the Trinity.

    Since Countess approaches the subject matter from the Greek text, I will simply quote him a bit here:

    "Although the noun 'spirit' is of neuter, grammatical gender, there is no justification automatically to register the Holy Spirit as an impersonal influence, no more than to regard the German word for 'girl,' the neuter das Madchen, as indicating a non-feminine, non-masculine entity..."

    Picking up a few graphs down: "A critical reader of NWT might have desired an appendix explaining how it can be that this 'invisible active force' does the things ascribed to it in the New Testament. In 1 Corinthians 12:11 it 'wills'; in Mark 13:11 it is seen 'speaking'; in Luke 12:12 and parallel passages it 'will teach'; in John 16:13 it 'will guide' and speak what 'he hears'; in verse 7 it is seen as 'the helper'; in Acts 13:2 it calls missionaries; in 8:29 it gives command to an evangelist; and in Matthew 1:18 it causes conception. That the Holy Spirit is personal may be observed further by Jesus' referring to Him as ἐκεῖνος three times in John 16:7-14. The neuter of this demonstrative is ἐκεῖνο..." (p. 71)

    Countess, on p. 72 adds that the Greek word parakletos "literally means 'one called alongside.' It is not abstractly 'the help' or 'the comfort,' but actively and concretely 'the comforter,' and as such can hardly describe an impersonal divine influence."

    Also, what's interesting is that DouglasKC earlier on this thread cited Jesus being an Advocate -- referencing 1 John 2:1...

    Note that A.H. Strong, in Systematic Theology, Judson Press, p. 323, says: "the name PARAKLETOS, which cannot be translated by 'comfort,' or be taken as the name of any abstract influence. The Comfortor, Instructor, Patron, Guide, Advocate, whom this term brings before us, must be a person. This is evident from its application to Christ in 1 John 2:1 -- 'we have an Advocate (PARAKLETOV) with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous."

    The Holy Spirit is as much "Paraclete" as Jesus Himself!

    Other verses worth noting with Greek nuances:

    In Acts 15:28, the KJV reads "It seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us..." ... The Greek word here for "seemed" is dokeo -- which means "to think."

    How is an impersonal force to be thoughtfully decisive?

    Finally, the Holy Spirit IS the inspiration for Scripture itself! Peter confirms this in 2 Peter 1:21...

    Now some here would have us believe that God must have done all of this robotically and mechanically...

    No. He used REAL people. And REAL PERSONAL DIVINITY was involved in inspiring them!

  • The Holy Trinity: Sound Doctrine or a Man-Made Tradition?

    01/16/2014 4:57:57 PM PST · 683 of 773
    Colofornian to DouglasKC; GarySpFc; Greetings_Puny_Humans; All
    Gary/ALL:

    Let me recommend a few resources -- which I will cite below -- re: the Personality of the Holy Spirit.

    These are good books to add to your library:
    * Doctrine Twisting: How Core Biblical Truths are Distorted by H. Wayne House and Gordon Carle (InterVarsity Press, 2003)
    * The Complete Book of Bible Answers: Answering the Tough Questions by Ron Rhodes (Harvest House, 1997)

    From Doctrine Twisting:

    "The Bible...clearly describes the Holy Spirit as a person. Personal pronouns are always used in reference to the Holy Spirit, never neuter (see Jn. 14:17; 15:26; 16:13-14). The Holy Spirit is NEVER referred to as a thing or as a force of God. The Holy Spirit is called a 'witness' (Acts 5:32), and speech is attributed to him (Acts 8:29; 10:19-20; 11:12; 13:2). Attributes that can be possessed only by a personal being are ascribed to the Holy Spirit. He feels love and grief (Is 63:10; Rom. 15:30; Eph. 4:30), has a mind with which to intercede (Rom. 8:27), possesses knowledge (1 Cor. 2:11), can be lied to (Acts 5:3), can be insulted (Heb. 10:29), can teach (John 14:26), can bear witness (John 15:26), can hear (John 16:13), and can make value judgments (Acts 15:28). The Bible also ascribes personal descriptive titles to the Holy Spirit, such as Helper, Comforter and Counselor (John 14:26)." (pp. 116-117)

    "He can be lied to, as in the case of Ananias and Sapphire (Acts 5:3-4). Paul warns us about grieving the Holy Spirit (Eph. 4:30)...One can lie to and grieve only a person. Neither can one blaspheme an impersonal force." (pp. 118-119)

    "The Scriptures clearly teach that the Holy Spirit is a person. He is given to the church as Counselor, taking over the role performed by Jesus on earth. Like the Father and the Son, he acts as only a person can do: he speaks, hears, acts, testifies, glorifies, convinces, guides, teaches, punishes, prompts, commands, forbids, desires, intercedes with groanings too profound for human understanding. Like the Father and the Son, he can be personally insulted, lied to, resisted and grieved by sin. When Jesus speaks of the parakletos (counselor, comforter) he always uses the personal pronoun." (pp. 106-107)

    From Rhodes:

    "The Holy Spirit has a mind. The Holy Spirit's intellect is seen in 1 Corinthians 2:10 where we are told that 'the Spirit searches all things' (cf. Isaiah 11:2; Ephesians 1:17). The Greek word for SEARCH means 'to thoroughly investigate a matter.' WE are also told in 1 Corinthians 2:1 that the Holy Spirit 'knows' the thoughts of God. How can the Spirit 'know' the thoughts of God if the Spirit does not have a mind? A force does not know things. Thought processes require the presence of a mind." (p. 77)

    Continuing: "Romans 8:27 tells us that just as the Holy Spirit knows the things of God, so God the Father knows 'what the mind of the Spirit is' (NASB). The word translated MIND in this verse literally means 'way of thinking, mindset, aim, aspiration, striving.' A mere force--electricity, for example--does not have a way of thinking or a mindset." (p. 77)

    Continuing: "The Holy Spirit has emotions. In Ephesians 4:30 we are admonished, 'Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God.' Grief is an emotion and is not something that can be experienced by a force. Grief is something one FEELS. The Holy Spirit feels the emotion of grief when believers sin..." (p. 77)

    Continuing: "The Holy Spirit has a will. We are told in 1 Corinthians 12:11 that the Holy Spirit distributes spiritual gifts 'to each one individually just as He wills' (NASB). The phrase HE WILLS translates the Greek word BOULETAI, which refers to 'decisions of the will after previous deliberation.' The Holy Spirit makes a sovereign choice regarding what spiritual gifts each respective Christian receives. A force does not have such a will." (p. 77)

    Continuing: "...the Holy Spirit is doing many things in Scripture that only a person can do. For example, the Holy Spirit TEACHES believers (John 14:26), He TESTIFIES (John 15:26), He GUIDES believers (Romans 8:14), He COMMISSIONS people to service (Acts 13:4), He ISSUES COMMANDS to believers (Acts 8:29), He RESTRAINS SIN (2 Thessalonians 2:7), He INTERCEDES (prays) for believers (Romans 8:26), and He SPEAKS to people (John 15:26; 2 Peter 1:21). In view of the evidence above, it is beyond doubt that the Holy Spirit is a person and not a 'force.'" (pp. 77-78)

  • The Holy Trinity: Sound Doctrine or a Man-Made Tradition?

    01/16/2014 4:32:43 PM PST · 682 of 773
    Colofornian to DouglasKC; GarySpFc; Greetings_Puny_Humans; All
    Gary,

    DouglasKC is a member of the United Church of God, which is an offshoot of Herbert W. Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God (WCG).

    Walter Martin and others were dealing with WCG's scripture-twisting for a long time...and a while back.

    I have the 1981 Cults Reference Bible that adds notes to what "slants" various cults would place upon different verses (in paraphrase form)...and then offer a response...this way you get "both sides" of what the interpretation "spin" is:

    For John 14:16, the notes read thus:

    "WCG says: Trinitarians refer to the use of the personal pronoun he with the Greek word for Comforter in this verse and in other verses of John 14, 15, and 16 to prove the Holy Spirit is a third person of the Trinity. Actually the personal pronoun is used only because the Greek word is masculine, and thus its pronoun must take a masculine gender. The other New Testament writers use the Greek word for spirit or breath which is grammatically neuter and thus is represented by a neuter pronoun."

    "Christian Response: The personal masculine pronoun is used with the neuter noun Ghost (Spirit) in John 14:26. Other verses with this construction are John 15:26 and 16:8 and Eph. 1:14. There is personality ascribed to the Holy Spirit when He is compared to Christ as another Comforter. (See also Acts 13:2; 20:23)." (p. 904)

    So not only is the personal masculine pronoun used here, but the Holy Spirit is another Comforter like Jesus Christ.

    Acts 13:2 is also referenced there...where "me" and "I" is used of the Holy Spirit there...

    Here's the KJV: "As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost SAID, Separate ME Barnabus and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them." (Acts 13:2)

    On p. 83 of the Cults Reference Bible, Martin lists a dozen "Basic Doctrinal Deviations" from orthodox Christianity.

    I'll list a portion of them:

    1. The key to biblical prophecy is that during the time of Israel's exile ten of the tribes were 'lost' when they migrated across Europe to finally land in England and later in America. This is known as Anglo-Israelism. Today, Manasseh is England, and the company of nations associated with Ephraim is America. After attining great wealth and power, these tribes will be destroyed by a revived Holy Roman Empire comprised of the ten Common Market nations, headed up politically by Germany and religiously by the Roman Catholic Church. England and America will then be taken off into slavery.

    5. Old Testament dietary laws and the Ten Commandments are to be followed if one is to achieve salvation.

    6. Salvation is future, not present. It is not an act but a process. Justification is merely the wiping away of past sins but does nothing for the sins of the present; the individual is responsible to keep God's law. This is done by faith, but salvation is an ultimate forgiveness and reward that requires lifelong compliance with God's ritual and moral requirements. Only Jesus has achieved salvation. No one is now sure of his salvation.

    8. Being born again has nothing to do with a spiritual renewal in one's life. It has to do with a life as spirit beings into which the children of God eventually are born by means of the resurrection.

    9. There is no eternal nature of the soul. Man does not have a soul; he is a soul. The soul ceases to exist at death but is re-created in a future resurrection.

    11. The Trinity doctrine is pagan. God is a family comprised right now of Jesus and the Father, but eventually will include all who accept God's way of life--they become God. The Holy Spirit is an active, impersonal force.

    Bottom line: If you KNOW much of the above to be false, and if you are talking with someone whose spiritual roots exported this to the world, by all means, value them as a person loved by God...but...why would you give them much theological credence to their claims?

  • The Holy Trinity: Sound Doctrine or a Man-Made Tradition?

    01/16/2014 3:49:18 PM PST · 680 of 773
    Colofornian to DouglasKC; GarySpFc; All
    From A.T. Robertson [Note: "Robertson's books are still consulted today, particularly his Word Pictures in the New Testament and his landmark volume A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in Light of Historical Research. In all, he published 45 books, several of which are still in print today."] Archibald Thomas Robertson

    "Two passages in John call for a remark, inasmuch as they bear on the personality of the Holy Spirit. In 14:26...the relative ho follows the grammatical gender of pneuma. Ekeinos, however, skips over pneuma and reverts to the gender of parakletos. In 16:13 a more striking example occurs...Here one has to back six lines to ekeinos again and seven to parakletos. It is more evident therefore in this passage that John is insisting on the personality of the Holy Spirit, when the grammatical gender so easily called for ekeino. Cf. ho in Jo. 14:17,26 and auto in 14:17."
    Source: A.T. Robertson, A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in Light of Historical Research (George H. Doran Co., NY, 1923, pp. 708-709)

  • The Holy Trinity: Sound Doctrine or a Man-Made Tradition?

    01/16/2014 3:20:08 PM PST · 673 of 773
    Colofornian to CynicalBear

    (Thank you...applaud the Spirit of Truth who motivates and energizes me)

  • The Holy Trinity: Sound Doctrine or a Man-Made Tradition?

    01/16/2014 3:19:23 PM PST · 672 of 773
    Colofornian to All
    (I had a typo in 2nd to last graph here): "raising up seed" is the word...not "need")
  • The Holy Trinity: Sound Doctrine or a Man-Made Tradition?

    01/16/2014 2:59:15 PM PST · 668 of 773
    Colofornian to restornu; Elsie; All
    Goodness there is arguing with the Bible now?

    (Why not? BYU professors like Robert L. Millet not only disregard the Bible entirely for ANY Mormon key doctrines, thereby "arguing" that the Bible has ANY bearing whatsoever upon the Mormon church...and individual Mormon lifestyles for that matter!):

    'The FACT is, we do NOT depend on the Bible or on traditional biblical interpretations for our theology...In short, the Bible is not, and was never intended to be, our sole guide, our template, our standard against which we measure what we teach or believe.'

    Source: By What (Whose) Standards Shall We Judge the Text? A Closer Look at Jesus Christ in the Book of Mormon Reviewed by Robert L. Millet -- in Review of Books on the Book of Mormon 6/1 (1994) [pp. 198-199 in hard copy form] [scroll down to 2nd graph from the bottom]

    Hence, I nominate "Professor Millet" of BYU to receive the Grand Ignoble Award of the Past 20 years! -- as expressing exactly opposite what the Bereans were honored for in Acts 17:11:

    11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

    Millet advised The Bible is NOT "our sole guide, our template, our standard against which we measure what we teach or believe" ... hence, ignoble based upon Acts 17:11...

    Ignoble:
    Definition: 1. not honorable in character or purpose. "ignoble feelings of intense jealousy" synonyms: dishonorable, unworthy, base, shameful, contemptible, despicable, dastardly, vile, degenerate, shabby...

    (Perhaps Millet was a bit jealous that his precious Book of Mormon was being overshadowed by the Bible?)

  • The Holy Trinity: Sound Doctrine or a Man-Made Tradition?

    01/16/2014 2:42:38 PM PST · 665 of 773
    Colofornian to restornu; Elsie; All
    Goodness there is arguing with the Bible now?

    (Why not? Joseph Smith did)

    "I believe the Bible as it read when it came from the pen of the original writers. Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors." (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Deseret, p. 327)

    Of course, if these were so bad, Smith corrected them in his JST version, right?

    And the Mormon church thereby mostly uses Smith's corrected JST version, right?

    (Wrong! The Mormon church doesn't even have copyright privileges for it!)

  • The Holy Trinity: Sound Doctrine or a Man-Made Tradition?

    01/16/2014 2:29:51 PM PST · 664 of 773
    Colofornian to restornu
    Goodness there is arguing with the Bible now?

    What? This is somehow breaking news that legalistic religionists do that? And tend to miss out on the real relationship with the real Christ in the process?

    (I think this has been goin' on for quite sometime now, Restornu):

    "You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me..." (Jesus, John 5:39)

    Oh...and btw, the better apologists on our side...when challenged...do what Apollos did:

    "For he" (Apollos) "vigorously refuted his Jewish opponents in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Messiah." (Acts 18:28)

    You see, there's just some things -- like a person's eternal destiny -- that's of tremendous import not to take a "ho hum" or ce la vie approach...

  • "Watch and Remember": The New Testament and the Great Apostasy

    01/16/2014 1:53:43 PM PST · 20 of 53
    Colofornian to Mrs. Don-o; All
    The larger point is, all those who left the Church ended up claiming that the Church was apostate,though they don't all agree on when the Church went apostate. Some claim it happened before the death of Peter and Paul! They all agree ---- as far as I know --- that at some point, the Church failed. Just Petered out, I guess.

    Not so.

    Luther never claimed, nor did the reformers, that 100% of the church apostatized.

    The Scriptures never claim a 100% apostasy would take place. Jesus did ask at one point if -- when He returned -- would He find faith on the earth? (Luke 18:8)

    Actually, a prophesy by the apostle Paul shows that God would be glorified in His church throughout all ages -- unto the end:

    20 Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen. (Eph. 3:20-21)

    So even when unfaithful popes and other church leaders popped up (or should I say "poped up"?), God remained faithful and a remnant of the faithful remained on the scene.

    To claim that the Roman Catholic church didn't need ongoing reformation through the centuries would prompt a need to duck history altogether.

    It would be tantamount to claiming that the Israelites never needed reform...and such a person claiming that would entirely flunk the Old Testament...with HUNDREDS of OT verses (probably a few thousand, actually) devoted by God to accomplishing such needed reform!

  • The Holy Trinity: Sound Doctrine or a Man-Made Tradition?

    01/16/2014 1:41:13 PM PST · 655 of 773
    Colofornian to restornu; CynicalBear; Elsie; All
    The LDS are of the Tribe of Joseph

    Sorry, Restornu...you can't even convince other Mormons with this nonsense, let alone non-Mormons!

    Mormon Rachel Bruner:

    "In The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints every person is a descendant of Abraham through one of the twelve tribes of Israel, either by blood or through adoption, and a member's lineage is declared in their patriarchal blessing. A huge percentage of members are from Ephraim and Manasseh (the tribes chosen to preach the gospel to the world) but there are members around the world who are from the other tribes."
    Poll: Which Tribe of Israel Are You From?

    Sorry, but many Mormons do not claim to be from "the tribe of Joseph"...in their quest to be "literal Zion."

    ALL: Mormons may be quite good at genealogy, but what you find when you get beyond a few centuries back is that only royalty tended to keep comprehensive genealogical records...and sorry, but Gutenberg's press wasn't invented til the latter part of the 15th century...and people weren't etching genealogical records in gold...

    The overwhelming number of genealogies from antiquity have been lost to time -- and even a high % of those few recorded -- have been jeopardized by the ravages of fire, theft, misplacements, water/floods, natural erosion, and natural disasters.

    So even Bruner's claim above -- that ALL Lds genealogy can be traced back to Abraham thru one of the 12 tribes -- is fraught with obvious falsehoods.

    CynicalBear, Restornu can't prove she and ALL Mormons are from the "tribe of Joseph" -- unless you want to make it all about the "tribe of Joseph Smith"...of which, yes, they are indeed spiritual descendants.

    And, yes, he needs all the spiritual descendants he can get...'cause frankly Emma took all the baby Josephs with her to the non-Salt Lake City Lds clan (Missouri-based Reorganized Church of LDS, which has since changed its name).

    Of course all of this presents a knotty problem for Mormon leaders & Mormon apologists.

    Lds leaders have made the study of Lds 10th prophet Joseph Fielding Smith their "theme" curricula study throughout 2014. He was Joseph Smith's grand nephew and wrote a 5-volume series published by Deseret Book Publishing entitled Answers to Gospel Questions (FAQ style).

    Apparently, a Jehovah's Witness had visited a Mormon and told them that polygamy was against the Book of Mormon, citing the Book of Jacob. In volume 4, chapter 42 (1963/1979), Joseph Fielding Smith takes on THIS question related to the earliest polygamy practiced by Joseph Smith and the earliest Mormons...claiming that because Jacob 2:30 cites "raising up need" as an exception to the prohibition vs. polygamy, his grand uncle was justified.

    The problem was, and I highlight how problematic this was here, Smith failed to raise up any other children with his 26 or so additional wives (besides possibly one miscarried one).

  • The Holy Trinity: Sound Doctrine or a Man-Made Tradition?

    01/16/2014 1:16:05 PM PST · 654 of 773
    Colofornian to GarySpFc; restornu; DouglasKC; Greetings_Puny_Humans; All
    Would Jesus Christ use such language in speaking of an impersonal influence or power? (John 16:7.)

    Good question

  • "Watch and Remember": The New Testament and the Great Apostasy

    01/16/2014 11:27:01 AM PST · 18 of 53
    Colofornian to dragonblustar; All
    I don’t understand how the LDS can go through the effort of reading the Bible, point out the warnings about false prophets and teachers but yet go on to promote Mormonism? You’d think some of them might put two and two together? Connect the dots, etc... Maybe some of apostle’s warnings might have sunk in?!?

    A lot of it comes down to culture.

    You trust your family. You trust your friends, your peers. You don't think they would either be led so far astray -- and worse, you don't they would lead others astray.

    Beyond that, the Mormon church overwhelms its membership with activities, temple rituals, genealogical research, rotating two-year emergency preparedness resources, studies of four books they call "scriptures" -- three which compete with the Bible, and then there's annual curricula studies which reinforces it all along with the rest of their media

    And often that's on top of raising families -- often larger families than what we see in the rest of America today.

    I mean, Mormonism's legalism alone is a killer time-wise invested in people's lives:

    Here's two ex-Mormons who point that out; disclaimer on the second one is that a lot of OTHER stuff he/she writes about is nothing I'd recommend:

    * Mormon Rules: The List further explained (by former 5th generation Mormon - 'In My Other Life was a Mormon - Been There, Done That. Wore a White Shirt and Tie)
    * Mormon411: The 101 Mormon Commandments (this Mormon has become an atheist)

    Counterfeit Christianity tends to turn many away from anything "Christian" because they toss it all out.

    Bottom line, Salt Lake City HQ in the Mormon church has been one of the biggest "Thou shalt" and "Thou shalt not" factories in existence.

  • "Watch and Remember": The New Testament and the Great Apostasy

    01/16/2014 11:12:05 AM PST · 15 of 53
    Colofornian to Mrs. Don-o
    All non-Catholic/Orthodox Christian churches teach this, do they not?

    No. In fact, most don't.

    Even those that broke away directly from Catholicism (like Lutheranism) tried to reform the church -- vs. restore it from ground zero.

    In fact, the Lutheran church got its start because the Catholic leadership ex-communicated Luther!

  • "Watch and Remember": The New Testament and the Great Apostasy

    01/16/2014 6:37:40 AM PST · 7 of 53
    Colofornian to wheat_grinder; All
    Well the article is spot on with that statement. Even a brief look into church history will reveal how Constantine and the Roman church made many revisions to the Messiahs message just 300 years after His ministry.

    Well, sure it's easy to side with the Mormons if you blame Rome from the get-go.

    The problem is that this writer -- and the Mormon church -- claims that the complete apostasy took place "not long after its formation" (meaning Jesus jumpstarting His Church).

    (Elsewhere the Mormon church claims this occurred when the apostles had died -- so IoW, early in the 2nd century after John died)

    The problem -- for your claim is -- that "The first bishop to claim primacy in writing was Pope Stephen I (254-257) Primacy of the Bishop of Rome

    IoW, Rome didn't really "rule" with much of an authoritative hand -- other than Victor, bishop of Rome, attempting to end a controversy toward the end of the 2nd century.

    So you blame Rome...but the Mormon church blames the church as well as those OTHER than the Rome-based leaders.

    So...classic fail on your part history-wise -- to link up the two...

  • "Watch and Remember": The New Testament and the Great Apostasy

    01/16/2014 5:32:32 AM PST · 4 of 53
    Colofornian to All
    ...The Mormon church has made sure that over these past 62 years its missionaries emphasize a so-called "UNIVERSAL" (complete) apostasy by the Christian church shortly after the apostles died.

    Since 1952, the Lds church has sent out about a million missionaries...[Lds has boasted of over a million in its entire history; the largest swath have come in the last 60 years]. They work 70-hour weeks. That's a LOT of "apostasy" mongering...especially given the 80,000 Lds missionaries out & about daily.

    And that doesn't include their 24/7 online accusations... 
    ...their books published in who knows how many languages... 
    ...their curricula... 
    ...their published articles... 
    ...their broadcasts...

    Snapshot of Joseph Smith’s Slanderous Invectives vs. Christian Sects

    Mormon Source

    [Note: Most of these are Mormon ‘scriptures'. In fact, First three rows below are Lds 'scripture' & therefore cannot be rug-swept any more than a Jew might try to take three commandments off of the very tablets of stone Moses brought down from the mountain]
    “...which of all the sects was right… must join NONE of them, for they were ALL WRONG… those professors were ALL CORRUPT…” Joseph Smith – History vv. 18-19. – Lds "scripture" Pearl of Great Price
    ...“which of all the sects was right…ALL their CREEDS were an ABOMINATION in his sight…they teach for doctrines the commandments of MEN…” Joseph Smith – History vv. 18-19. – Lds "scripture" Pearl of Great Price
    Mormon church the only ‘Christ-sanctioned’ church on earth: “…the foundation of this [Mormon] church…the ONLY true and living church on the face of the whole earth” [Obvious ‘scorched earth’ implication: All other churches are false and dead] Lds “scripture” Doctrines & Covenants 1:30
    Direct question asked of Joseph Smith: 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons?" Answer from Lds "prophet" Joseph Smith: 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119 [Not “scripture” – but still publicly spoken by the Mormon ‘living prophet’ and published by a later Mormon ‘living prophet,’ Joseph Fielding Smith – via a publisher owned by the Mormon church – Deseret News Press, 1938]
    “In 1952…the first official proselyting plan was sent to missionaries throughout the world…It included seven missionary discussions that emphasized…[four topics, one of them being]THE APOSTASY and Restoration…” [This makes it 60 years that Mormon church missionaries, soon to number 85,000, have formally emphasized in its training & door to door saturation a priority in bashing the worldwide Christian church as “apostates” (100% AWOL)] Our Heritage: A Brief History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints p. 116, 1996
  • LDS Church follows Christ's 'blueprint,' speaker says [Lds leader says other churches invalid]

    01/16/2014 5:31:50 AM PST · 7 of 62
    Colofornian to All
    ...The Mormon church has made sure that over these past 62 years its missionaries emphasize a so-called "UNIVERSAL" (complete) apostasy by the Christian church shortly after the apostles died.

    Since 1952, the Lds church has sent out about a million missionaries...[Lds has boasted of over a million in its entire history; the largest swath have come in the last 60 years]. They work 70-hour weeks. That's a LOT of "apostasy" mongering...especially given the 80,000 Lds missionaries out & about daily.

    And that doesn't include their 24/7 online accusations... 
    ...their books published in who knows how many languages... 
    ...their curricula... 
    ...their published articles... 
    ...their broadcasts...

    Snapshot of Joseph Smith’s Slanderous Invectives vs. Christian Sects

    Mormon Source

    [Note: Most of these are Mormon ‘scriptures'. In fact, First three rows below are Lds 'scripture' & therefore cannot be rug-swept any more than a Jew might try to take three commandments off of the very tablets of stone Moses brought down from the mountain]
    “...which of all the sects was right… must join NONE of them, for they were ALL WRONG… those professors were ALL CORRUPT…” Joseph Smith – History vv. 18-19. – Lds "scripture" Pearl of Great Price
    ...“which of all the sects was right…ALL their CREEDS were an ABOMINATION in his sight…they teach for doctrines the commandments of MEN…” Joseph Smith – History vv. 18-19. – Lds "scripture" Pearl of Great Price
    Mormon church the only ‘Christ-sanctioned’ church on earth: “…the foundation of this [Mormon] church…the ONLY true and living church on the face of the whole earth” [Obvious ‘scorched earth’ implication: All other churches are false and dead] Lds “scripture” Doctrines & Covenants 1:30
    Direct question asked of Joseph Smith: 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons?" Answer from Lds "prophet" Joseph Smith: 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119 [Not “scripture” – but still publicly spoken by the Mormon ‘living prophet’ and published by a later Mormon ‘living prophet,’ Joseph Fielding Smith – via a publisher owned by the Mormon church – Deseret News Press, 1938]
    “In 1952…the first official proselyting plan was sent to missionaries throughout the world…It included seven missionary discussions that emphasized…[four topics, one of them being]THE APOSTASY and Restoration…” [This makes it 60 years that Mormon church missionaries, soon to number 85,000, have formally emphasized in its training & door to door saturation a priority in bashing the worldwide Christian church as “apostates” (100% AWOL)] Our Heritage: A Brief History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints p. 116, 1996
  • LDS Church follows Christ's 'blueprint,' speaker says [Lds leader says other churches invalid]

    01/16/2014 5:30:33 AM PST · 6 of 62
    Colofornian to All
    Mormonism Research Ministry has an interesting well-researched piece entitled The Great Apostasy...

    The initial three paragraphs of this piece are as follows:

    "Around the world the fame of Christ spreads. Men and women lift their hands to praise the name of Jesus, worshiping him as the King of kings and Lord of lords. Full of the Holy Spirit, they lift him up as their savior, redeemer, and advocate. His gospel is preached, his word is believed, and his death and resurrection are celebrated in the Lord's Supper. Millions are baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, trusting in the person and work of Christ for forgiveness of sins, eternal life, and the transformation of their heart. Hundreds of millions of Christians gather to fellowship over the risen Christ."

    "Yet Mormonism pats these Christians on the heads and pities them. The 'one true church', Mormonism says, is found nowhere in non-Mormon Christendom. The gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit is found nowhere outside Mormonism. The God of Mormonism recognizes no missionary work, no baptism, and no communion outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as authorized. Despite patronizing us with the uninteresting affirmation that all religion has some truth in it, Mormonism still teaches that God told Joseph Smith:

    "I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: 'they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.'" (Joseph Smith—History) Mormonism teaches that Christ's church fell into what has been described as a complete and universal apostasy.

      So here we have a Mormon church that claims...: 

    a. gift of indwelling Holy Spirit to be found NOWHERE outside of Mormonism; 
    b. It ALONE is the "one living & true church on the face of the earth" (Lds scripture D&C 1:30
    c. "...all systems of worship outside of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would be classified as 'the church of the devil'" (See "Watch and Remember": The New Testament and the Great Apostasy [Non-Lds worship 'church of...devil']
    d. Marriages performed by priesthood (or ministry) outside of the Mormon church is "presumptuous and blasphemous" (See last book listed here by lds.org: The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, ed. by Edward L. Kimball. Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1982, page 494)
    e. All baptisms and communion/Lord's Supper/Eucharist served outside of the Mormon church is both "presumptuous and blasphemous" (Lds "prophet" Spencer W. Kimball, the man who approved black priesthood in the Mormon church) and "will highly offend God" (Lds "apostle" Orson Pratt, the man who set the chapter-and-verse divisions in the 1879 Book of Mormon still in use today) [See: Last book listed here by lds.org: The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, ed. by Edward L. Kimball. Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1982, page 494 and Lds "apostle" Orson Pratt's The Seer, page 255, column 2 [Please note, Pratt had such authority in the Mormon church that Pratt's 1879 chapter and verse divisions in the Book of Mormon is what Mormons still use today]
    e. No missionary work outside of Mormonism is recognized as divinely authorized 
    f. No spiritual gifts outside of Mormonism is recognized as divinely given Lds "apostle" Parley P. Pratt, Key to the Science of Theology, pp. 67-68
    g. Although the apostle Paul wrote about prophetic gifts to the Corinthians (which is distinct from any official "OFFICE" of prophet as we find in the Old Testament), Mormonism claims no one but their top etchelon speaks prophetically any more as guided by the Holy Spirit. [Ironically, many Mormon apologists and writers have attempted to belittle Christianity for saying God doesn't reveal revelations any more; yet, these very advocates of Mormonism have "bottled up" God from speaking to anyone beyond a few who happen to live in Salt Lake City!] 

  • "Watch and Remember": The New Testament and the Great Apostasy

    01/16/2014 5:29:31 AM PST · 3 of 53
    Colofornian to All
    Mormonism Research Ministry has an interesting well-researched piece entitled The Great Apostasy...

    The initial three paragraphs of this piece are as follows:

    "Around the world the fame of Christ spreads. Men and women lift their hands to praise the name of Jesus, worshiping him as the King of kings and Lord of lords. Full of the Holy Spirit, they lift him up as their savior, redeemer, and advocate. His gospel is preached, his word is believed, and his death and resurrection are celebrated in the Lord's Supper. Millions are baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, trusting in the person and work of Christ for forgiveness of sins, eternal life, and the transformation of their heart. Hundreds of millions of Christians gather to fellowship over the risen Christ."

    "Yet Mormonism pats these Christians on the heads and pities them. The 'one true church', Mormonism says, is found nowhere in non-Mormon Christendom. The gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit is found nowhere outside Mormonism. The God of Mormonism recognizes no missionary work, no baptism, and no communion outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as authorized. Despite patronizing us with the uninteresting affirmation that all religion has some truth in it, Mormonism still teaches that God told Joseph Smith:

    "I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: 'they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.'" (Joseph Smith—History) Mormonism teaches that Christ's church fell into what has been described as a complete and universal apostasy.

      So here we have a Mormon church that claims...: 

    a. gift of indwelling Holy Spirit to be found NOWHERE outside of Mormonism; 
    b. It ALONE is the "one living & true church on the face of the earth" (Lds scripture D&C 1:30
    c. "...all systems of worship outside of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would be classified as 'the church of the devil'" (See "Watch and Remember": The New Testament and the Great Apostasy [Non-Lds worship 'church of...devil']
    d. Marriages performed by priesthood (or ministry) outside of the Mormon church is "presumptuous and blasphemous" (See last book listed here by lds.org: The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, ed. by Edward L. Kimball. Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1982, page 494)
    e. All baptisms and communion/Lord's Supper/Eucharist served outside of the Mormon church is both "presumptuous and blasphemous" (Lds "prophet" Spencer W. Kimball, the man who approved black priesthood in the Mormon church) and "will highly offend God" (Lds "apostle" Orson Pratt, the man who set the chapter-and-verse divisions in the 1879 Book of Mormon still in use today) [See: Last book listed here by lds.org: The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, ed. by Edward L. Kimball. Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1982, page 494 and Lds "apostle" Orson Pratt's The Seer, page 255, column 2 [Please note, Pratt had such authority in the Mormon church that Pratt's 1879 chapter and verse divisions in the Book of Mormon is what Mormons still use today]
    e. No missionary work outside of Mormonism is recognized as divinely authorized 
    f. No spiritual gifts outside of Mormonism is recognized as divinely given Lds "apostle" Parley P. Pratt, Key to the Science of Theology, pp. 67-68
    g. Although the apostle Paul wrote about prophetic gifts to the Corinthians (which is distinct from any official "OFFICE" of prophet as we find in the Old Testament), Mormonism claims no one but their top etchelon speaks prophetically any more as guided by the Holy Spirit. [Ironically, many Mormon apologists and writers have attempted to belittle Christianity for saying God doesn't reveal revelations any more; yet, these very advocates of Mormonism have "bottled up" God from speaking to anyone beyond a few who happen to live in Salt Lake City!] 

  • "Watch and Remember": The New Testament and the Great Apostasy

  • LDS Church follows Christ's 'blueprint,' speaker says [Lds leader says other churches invalid]

  • LDS Church follows Christ's 'blueprint,' speaker says [Lds leader says other churches invalid]

    01/16/2014 5:23:01 AM PST · 3 of 62
    Colofornian to All
    And, as for what the Lds church REALLY teaches about non-Lds systems of worship, see:

    "Watch and Remember": The New Testament and the Great Apostasy [Non-Lds worship 'church of...devil']

  • LDS Church follows Christ's 'blueprint,' speaker says [Lds leader says other churches invalid]

    01/16/2014 5:21:49 AM PST · 2 of 62
    Colofornian to All

    Please note this was not only given as a devotional to college-age young adults, but was broadcast by satellite around the Lds world!

  • LDS Church follows Christ's 'blueprint,' speaker says [Lds leader says other churches invalid]

    01/16/2014 5:20:42 AM PST · 1 of 62
    Colofornian
    Please note: Deseret News is owned by the Mormon church.

    From the article:
    ...A frequently cited passage in LDS scripture identifies The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as “the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth”(...Doctrine and Covenants 1:30). “What does this mean?” asked Elder Tad R. Callister of the church’s Presidency of the Seventy during a devotional for college-age church members Sunday evening....this is THE ONLY CHURCH that has all the truth that has been revealed thus far in this dispensation — THE ONLY CHURCH that has the ordinances necessary for exaltation, and the only church that has the priesthood of God to perform those ordinances with divine validity.”

    IoW: All other churches performing "ordinances" ("sacraments" is what some churches also go by) are invalid except the Mormon Church!

    Even worse, when this Mormon general authority says the Mormon church is "THE ONLY CHURCH that has the ordinances necessary for exaltation...", he is actually making a claim that only certain Mormons have a gateway to living forever with Heavenly Father!

    The "key to the Mormon code" here is understanding how Mormonism defines "exaltation"; yes, Mormons teach a near universal "salvation" of heaven -- but for most, it would be a Heavenly Fatherless "heaven"...

    Documentation for Lds definition of "exaltation":

    Excerpt from: THE TOP TEN MOST SURPRISING 'MORMON TEACHINGS' ABOUT MORMON HEAVEN and AFTER-LIFE

    Posted on FR as a thread in July 2012: THE TOP TEN MOST SURPRISING 'MORMON TEACHINGS' ABOUT MORMON HEAVEN and AFTER-LIFE [Vanity]

    What's especially relevant to THIS thread is the 1st, 4th and 5th items I listed in the chart at the above link...

    And the key one is this: Mormonism teaches the ONLY temple Mormons (about 15-20% of all LDS) get to live forever in the presence of Heavenly Father.

    If you're forever single, too bad. Even Lds & single! If you're NOT a temple Mormon, too bad.

    What Lds don't seem to understand is, if Heavenly Father isn't there -- it isn't heaven!

    They somehow think that a Fatherless 'heaven' is heaven!

    5. "Eternal life" is redefined to be an exclusive term that applies to temple Mormons ONLY! "Eternal life" is thus reserved for legalistically abiding Mormons ONLY. "Eternal life" does NOT = ALL living forever with Heavenly Father; 'tis ONLY applies for those who EARN exaltation...and "exaltation" is a Mormon by-word for becoming a god!Hence, to the Mormon, resurrection alone does not = eternal life. Yes, Mormons believe that just about all people become immortal due to the resurrection. But "eternal life" is ONLY for those who live in the presence of Heavenly Father -- and become "gods" themselves (what Mormons call "exaltation"...To Mormons, "exaltation" and "eternal life" are interchangeable terms...but "eternal life" and heaven-as-a-residence for non-Mormons are not interchangeable terms..."eternal life" is ONLY for Mormons! * Eternal life is a term which always means ‘exaltation,’ when used in the Scriptures (John 3:15; Romans 6:23; 1 John 1:2; 2 Nephi 2:28; D&C 5:22; 18:8; 131:5; 138:51; Moses 1:39).” (David R. Ridges, Mormon Beliefs and Doctrines Made Easier, p. 88) Sub-title: “WHAT IS EXALTATION? Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life that God lives.” (Older 1970s version, p. 289) * ”Exaltation is a synonym for eternal life. Exaltation comes only to those who inherit the highest degree within the celestial kingdom…it consists in the continuation of the family unit throughout eternity; it is the type of life that is lived by our Heavenly Father.” (Daniel H. Ludlow, A Companion to Your Study of the Doctrines and Covenants, 2:85) * Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life God lives. He lives in great glory. He is perfect. He possesses all knowledge, and all wisdom. He is the Father of spirit children. He is a creator. We can become like our Heavenly Father. This is exaltation.” (Gospel Principles, 1997, p. 302) * “Eternal life…In fact…means exaltation. He who receives the greatest portion of eternal life becomes a God.” (Milton R. Hunter, an LDS Seventy, The Gospel Through the Ages, p. 11) * Exaltation means godhood, creatorship. ‘As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p. 53) * “Exaltation is the greatest of all the gifts and attainments possible. It is available only in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom and is reserved for members of the Church of the Firstborn. This exalted status, called eternal life, is available to be received by a man and a wife. It means not only living in God’s presence, but receiving power to do as God does, including the power to bear children after the resurrection.” (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, 2:479 Quote for resurrection alone not = 'eternal life': * “…resurrection alone does not qualify us for eternal life in the presence of God…we need His grace to purify and perfect us ‘after all we can do’ (2 Nephi 25:23).” (Truth to the Faith: A Gospel Reference, Intellectual Reserve, 2004, p. 77)
  • "Watch and Remember": The New Testament and the Great Apostasy

    01/16/2014 5:19:52 AM PST · 1 of 53
    Colofornian

    This piece is linked from a current BYU Website under the heading 'Apostasy': BYU New Testament Commentary Bibliography

    The very original source for this excerpt was: Kent P. Jackson in By Study and also by Faith Volume 1, eds. John M. Lundquist and Stephen D. Ricks (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1990).

    Worth Noting:

    1. Deseret Book Publishers IS owned by the Mormon Church itself.

    2. FYI: This piece can also be found by an old Lds apologetics Web site:

    3. The most controversial paragraph from this BYU Professor -- as published almost 25 years ago by the Mormon Church -- has been deleted in an abridged version found at the BYU Religious Education Religious Studies Center portion of its Website: See New Testament Prophecies of Apostasy

    Here, the article pretty much starts off the same...but the following excerpt From the article was deleted in that abridged version:

    ...The Book of Mormon prophet Nephi envisioned in the latter days following the Restoration only two churches: "the church of the Lamb of God" and "the church of the devil" (1 Nephi 14:10). Since whoever does not belong to "the church of the Lamb of God" belongs to "the church of the devil," as Nephi announced, then all systems of worship outside of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would be classified as "the church of the devil" by Nephi's definition.9...To suggest that fallen Christianity has Satan at its head in the place of God is certainly not to say that all that is in it is satanic...

    So...this isn't the "PR" version of what the Mormon Church plays off often to the world...that :

    "...all systems of worship outside of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would be classified as 'the church of the devil' by Nephi's definition"...

  • The Holy Trinity: Sound Doctrine or a Man-Made Tradition?

    01/15/2014 7:56:47 PM PST · 575 of 773
    Colofornian to DouglasKC; Greetings_Puny_Humans; All
    Ha ha...nice try...quote an extra biblical source...sorry, I'll believe the bible and the practice of biblical Christians...I have no problem if you want to take tradition over what the bible says. But at least be honest enough to say that you prefer your tradition.

    Same response...different subject: Baptizing in Singular NAME of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit:

    Tell us, Douglas: Why doesn't Matthew quote Jesus as saying "NAMES" of...if Father, Son, and Holy not united as one identity -- God, Himself?

    Same initial comment: If you reject very early Christian historical teaching tradition, so be it (That's what cultists tend to do). Please at least honor history -- and don't revise it.

    Tertullian, c.213:

    "He commands them to baptize into the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--NOT into a unipersonal God. And, indeed, it is not once only--but three times--that we are immersed into the the Three Persons, at the mention of each individual Name

    Apostolic Constitutions, compiled 390

    [Cites Matthew 28:18-20] then: : Therefore, O bishops, baptize three times into one Father, and Son, and Holy Spirit, according to the will of Christ.

    Source: A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs, David W. Bercot, editor, Hendrickson Publishers 1998, pp. 57-59

  • The Holy Trinity: Sound Doctrine or a Man-Made Tradition?

    01/15/2014 7:44:59 PM PST · 574 of 773
    Colofornian to DouglasKC; Greetings_Puny_Humans; All
    Ha ha...nice try...quote an extra biblical source...sorry, I'll believe the bible and the practice of biblical Christians...I have no problem if you want to take tradition over what the bible says. But at least be honest enough to say that you prefer your tradition.

    If you reject very early Christian historical teaching tradition, so be it (That's what cultists tend to do).

    Please at least honor history -- and don't revise it.

    Since this teaching has been around since the first, second, third centuries, etc...(and no, 'twasn't regarded as "heretical" then, either)...please stop your false accusations of us "inventing" something in the 21st century. (Your post #485)

    First Century: I highlighted Scriptures in latter part of post #447...and you haven't even attempted to refute any of those Scriptures

    Question at hand: How was the Holy Spirit regarded in the Early Church beyond the Scriptures I ALREADY cited?

    Hermas, c. 150 A.D.

    * "If you are patient, the Holy Spirit that dwells in you will be pure. HE will not be darkened by any evil spirit...But if any outburst of anger takes place, immediately the Holy Spirit, WHO is sensitive, is constricted. For HE does not have a pure place, and HE seeks to depart."

    * "Do not crush the Holy Spirit WHO dwells in you. Otherwise, HE may entreat...and withdraw from you."

    Athenagoras, c. 175

    "The Holy Spirit HIMSELF, who operates in the prophets..."

    Treatise on Re-Baptism, c. 257

    * "The Lord has taught us most plainly by His words about the liberty and power of the Holy Spirit...saying, 'The Spirit breathes where HE will...'"

    (Tertullian, c. 210, and Origen, c. 228...Novation c. 235 likewise taught the personality of the Holy Spirit)

    Source: A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs, David W. Bercot, editor, Hendrickson Publishers 1998, pp. 343-346

  • The Holy Trinity: Sound Doctrine or a Man-Made Tradition?

    01/15/2014 4:34:08 PM PST · 532 of 773
    Colofornian to DouglasKC

    Jesus is indeed our advocate...and mediator {1 tim 2:5} and intercessor {heb 4:14}...yet so is the holy spirit {john 14}...and the holy spirit is our intercessor {Rom 8:27}...Jesus in John 14 clearly says “another” advocate...how long have you had issues understanding the word “another”???

  • The Holy Trinity: Sound Doctrine or a Man-Made Tradition?

    01/15/2014 3:43:25 PM PST · 523 of 773
    Colofornian to DouglasKC

    I didn’t “invent” ANY of the personal attributes listed in post #447...you are the one ignoring all of Jesus’ references to “He” and “Him” and “another Advocate” being sent by Him in the book of John

  • The Holy Trinity: Sound Doctrine or a Man-Made Tradition?

    01/15/2014 1:51:00 PM PST · 477 of 773
    Colofornian to DouglasKC; All
    Interesting exposition there...you cite John 14:23...and you emphasize the latter part of the verse, as it if was a complete revelation about who God is Person-wise... 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him."

    and you cite v. 17 about the Holy Spirit...too...including this last portion: "for He DWELLS WITH you and will be in you."

    What? Are we supposed to simply acknowledge but otherwise ignore the "indwelling part about the Holy Spirit" in v. 17?

    Don't you see what you're doing?

    I could pull the same type of stunt you're doing...Here, let me show you:

    In his letters to the Corinthians, Paul ONLY talks about the Holy Spirit and God being entempled in us:

    "16 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst?" (1 Cor. 3:16)
    * "For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.” (2 Cor. 6:16)

    Why, per this fancy-dancy verse extraction process we're learnin' from DouglasKC, that must mean that since Paul didn't include "Jesus" as being entempled, that ONLY the Holy Spirit and "God" is.

    You see the problem with this kind of uncharitable-cherry-verses-left-on-the-branch ways is that it's tantamount to citing 1 Cor. 3:16 & 2 Cor. 6:16 and conclude that's the entirety of what God said about a subject...and yet what did Paul say in...
    Colossians 1:27?: ...Christ in you, the hope of glory.

    The Holy Spirit indwells us (John 14:16-17; 1 Cor. 3:16);
    Jesus indwells us (Col. 1:27; John 14:23; John 17:26) -- as He promised to be with us thru the end of the age (Matt. 28:20)
    The Father indwells us (John 14:23; John 17:26; cf. 2 Cor. 6:16)

  • The Holy Trinity: Sound Doctrine or a Man-Made Tradition?

    01/15/2014 12:29:28 PM PST · 452 of 773
    Colofornian to restornu; DouglasKC; CynicalBear; metmom; All
    There is no darkness in Jesus nor could he behave as some have behaved here

    You're right. The REAL Jesus wouldn't cast aspersions upon the Scriptures like YOU did less than three hours (see post #445) after posting this comment...and like DouglasKC did less than 45 minutes (see post #424) after you posted this comment.

    You see the Jesus of the New Testament cited the Old Testament about 78 times.

    He constantly undergirded its authority by saying, "It is written..."

    He said:

    Luke 24:25: "O fools, and slow of heart to believe ALL that the prophets have spoken."
    And not even a fresh vision from God would trump Moses & the prophets: Luke 16:29: [Jesus said] “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them."

    Likewise, we cannot discount Jesus' words:
    Luke 9:26: Whosoever shall be ashamed of me AND MY WORDS, of him shall the son of man be ashamed."
    Acts 20:35: "Remember the words of the Lord Jesus"

  • The Holy Trinity: Sound Doctrine or a Man-Made Tradition?

    01/15/2014 12:09:27 PM PST · 450 of 773
    Colofornian to restornu; Elsie; All
    BTW the Bible was put together by MEN not the Holy Ghost...

    BTW, the Mormon Doctrine & Covenants was put together by ONE MAN...(not the Holy Ghost)

    (Yet you still see the D&C as authoritative, eh, Restornu?)

    And, as for the Book of Mormon, if it was given by God, then who authorized the Mormon leaders to make over 4,000 changes in the text?

    Even in just 7 years from the Book of Mormon being published, Smith removed 47 "it came to pass" phrases from the original 1830 edition. (This was admitted to by BYU in 1994: Original Language of the Book of Mormon: Upstate New York Dialect, King James English, or Hebrew?

    See also: WHY HAS BOOK OF MORMON GONE THROUGH SO MANY CHANGES SINCE IT WAS TRANSLATED DIRECTLY FROM TABLETS? from Hebrew-translation.org

  • The Holy Trinity: Sound Doctrine or a Man-Made Tradition?

    01/15/2014 11:57:49 AM PST · 449 of 773
    Colofornian to restornu; CynicalBear; DouglasKC; teppe; Normandy; StormPrepper; All
    The foregoing items attest to the fact that our present Bible does not contain all of the word of the Lord that He gave to

    Even if EVERYthing you claim here is "so," how does that change anything?

    (And I respectfully request a direct answer...and not some veer-off in another direction response)

    By Joseph Smith's own account, part of the so-called "Book of Mormon tramslation" was lost, was it not?

    So...if the Book of Mormon "does not contain all of the word of the Lord that He gave"...

    ...why do you limit your castigations from this angle to the Bible, Restornu?

    Why don't you use this same rant-and-rave angle to attempt to bring ill-repute upon the Book of Mormon -- given the Harris' subtraction to the point where Joseph Smith claimed he had to give only an "abridged" version?

    Is it because the Book of Mormon is PR-precious to you, and (perhaps) the Bible isn't?

    Why don't you treat the Book of Mormon with the same "discount double-check" treatment you give the Bible?

  • The Holy Trinity: Sound Doctrine or a Man-Made Tradition?

    01/15/2014 11:30:53 AM PST · 447 of 773
    Colofornian to DouglasKC; Greetings_Puny_Humans; All
    Act 10:45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
    DouglasKC: Does scripture ever talk about "pouring" out the father or the son? Can a person be "poured" out?

    Yes, it does...Psalm 22 is deemed "Messianic" -- and describes the cross of Christ:

    "I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has turned to wax; it has melted within me." (Psalm 22:14)

    (So now -- by extended implication -- you are going to tell us that Jesus isn't a person?)

    In addition to the above, Solomon said: ..."the fruit of my toil into which I have poured my effort..." (Ecc. 2:19)

    We say that all the time...like: "He poured himself into it."

    (It's just another way of say "expended Himself")

    Bottom line...Next you'll be telling us the Holy Spirit is a bird (Matthew 3:16: As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him.)

    But, probably not. You see, at least a dove isn't an inanimate object...an impersonal force...so if you were to cite Matthew 3:16 to describe the Holy Spirit, that might be too "personal" of ascription to be giving the Holy Spirit!

    Tell us, Douglas: Does a dog have more personality than the Holy Spirit? (Yes? No?)

    So, what do you do with all these Scriptures...just scissor 'em to death or slander them as being revised 'cause it doesn't comport with your "theology" per the teachers who divide and redivide in your neck of the woods?

    The Holy Spirit...
    ...speaks (John 16:13; Rev. 2:7)
    ...PERSONALLY commands/calls -- note words "Me" and "I" (Acts 13:2)
    ...guides (John 16:13)
    ...counsels (John 14:16-17)
    ...teaches (John 14:26)
    ...hears (John 16:13)
    ...forbids (Acts 16:6)
    ...determines -- showing WILL/mind (1 Cor. 12:11)
    ...intercedes (Romans 8:34)...kind of ridiculous to claim, as DouglasKC does, that an impersonal invisible active force of God intercedes on man's behalf before God

    The Holy Spirit can be...
    ...insulted (Hebrews 10:29)
    ...grieved (Eph. 4:30; Isaiah 63:10)
    ...may be lied to (Acts 5:3)

    The Holy Spirit has a mind, and His own Power (Rev. 2:7; 1 Cor. 12:11; Rom. 8:27; Rom. 15:19)

    The Holy Spirit is called God and bears names belonging to God (Acts 5:3-4,9; 2 Cor. 3:17-18, etc.)

    The Holy Spirit has divine attributes ascribed to Him (1 Cor. 2:11; 12:11)

  • The Holy Trinity: Sound Doctrine or a Man-Made Tradition?

    01/15/2014 10:43:19 AM PST · 442 of 773
    Colofornian to CynicalBear

    Amen!