John MacArthur questions Ravi Zacharias salvation

[Philsworld]

Once Saved Always Saved? Or, after the moment of grace, is a Christian then judged by his works and God's holy law? John MacArthur questions the salvation of Ravi Zacharias in the life he led AFTER he came to Christ.

https://youtu.be/L2tpwVrBEz0

[Philsworld]

https://youtu.be/L2tpwVrBEz0

[roving]

I don’t know where he is. He had time to repent, he didn’t just die suddenly.

[Governor Dinwiddie]

John MacArthur gives you the straight talk. He doesn't allow deviants to feel comfortable in his presence.

[Philsworld]

Some on this very site HAVE SAID that there was no need to repent, because no matter what he (or any Christian) did after the moment of grace, he’s still going to heaven. They HAVE SAID that a Christian can’t sin, or that their flesh can, but their Spirit can’t (Doctrine of the Nicolaitans). They have also said that God’s law only applies to the unsaved, not the Once Saved, Always Saved (OSAS). Same applies to Judgment. Yep, Once Judged, Always Judged (OJAJ).... At the microsecond of grace, nothing will ever keep them out of heaven, no amount of sin, even non-repentance. They say that Grace covers all sin, past AND future. Their salvation is certain, no matter how they live their lives after Grace. No judgment for them after their acceptance of Christ. In fact, they are judged worthy just because they initially accepted Christ. Nothing they do during the rest of their lives will ever keep them out of heaven. OSAS/OJAJ.

Oh, I was also told that if Ravi isn’t in heaven, his profession of faith in Jesus Christ wasn’t good enough to begin with, which is ridiculous.

What the bible teaches is that God expects obedience from those claiming His grace. They will certainly be judged and if found wanting, will lose their salvation. God will tell them “I never knew you, depart from me, you workers of lawlessness”.

1 Peter 4:17For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

[Mr Rogers]

“Once Saved Always Saved? Or, after the moment of grace, is a Christian then judged by his works and God’s holy law?”

That is NOT the question. Rather, can someone be a Christian and then CHOOSE to reject their own salvation?

Hebrews 6: “4 For it is impossible to renew to repentance those who were once enlightened, who tasted the heavenly gift, who shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who tasted God’s good word and the powers of the coming age, 6 and who have fallen away. This is because, to their own harm, they are recrucifying the Son of God and holding him up to contempt.”

Romans 11: “17 Now if some of the branches were broken off, and you, though a wild olive branch, were grafted in among them and have come to share in the rich root of the cultivated olive tree, 18 do not boast that you are better than those branches. But if you do boast—you do not sustain the root, but the root sustains you.

19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 True enough; they were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but beware, 21 because if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Therefore, consider God’s kindness and severity: severity toward those who have fallen but God’s kindness toward you—if you remain in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, because God has the power to graft them in again.”

[Philsworld]

——>Rather, can someone be a Christian and then CHOOSE to reject their own salvation?

Doesn’t apply to Matthew 7:21-23. All of those Christians who won’t be in heaven, expected that they would. They CHOSE Christ, but because of their lawlessness, Christ rejected them. Every Christian who claims OSAS/OJAJ expects to be in heaven. Choosing to reject their salvation isn’t on the table. Regardless of how they live their lives in disobedience to God’s law, they all expect to be in heaven.

Matthew 7:21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

[P8riot]

All Christians struggle with sin, those that say they don’t are lying (1John 1). Even the apostle Paul anguished over his (see Romans 7). What determines our salvation is what Christ has done for us and not how well we behave. That is not saying that we should not endeavor to obey, but that God’s grace through Christ ensures us that we are His. If He has chosen us, then He will complete His work of conforming us to the image of Christ. This may not be according to our own timing, and may or may not always be visible to us or others, specially those who are also blinded by the sin in their own lives and has zero bearing eternally. It is a waste of time to question other’s salvation, specially after they are gone, there is nothing to be gained by it.

[vespa300]

Amen. And let’s not forget Christ chose a whole nation to be witnesses to the world of a loving merciful Savior. He chose them. But they failed and Christ wept over Israel.

Christ chooses all, he knocks on every door, but he does not force anyone. And he grieves over those that do not open the door just as Israel chose not to. And Christ wept over that nation. He wept over Jerusalem. And finally, the took the kingdom from that and gave it a new nation that would bear fruit.....”The Kingdom has been taken from you and given a new nation that will bear fruit”....Matthew 21:43.

This destroys today’s dispensaitonalism that focused on the physical nation of Israel being relevant in Prophecy. WE are all now spiritual Israel......”ye be Christ, ye be Abraham”

Rome is where to look for prophecy and the little horn of Daniel 7. Her false system of religion , her wound has healed.......and the world will soon marvel after her again.

[Philsworld]

——>Rome is where to look for prophecy and the little horn of Daniel 7. Her false system of religion , her wound has healed.......and the world will soon marvel after her again.

100% correct. In fact, when I saw this John MacArthur video about Ravi last night, I was searching for a Stephen Bohr video on Daniel 7 and the Little Horn.

[Philsworld]

——>It is a waste of time to question other’s salvation, specially after they are gone, there is nothing to be gained by it.

Ravi’s salvation is no one’s business, except God’s (now that Ravi is dead). But, he lived the OSAS/OJAJ doctrine. He was the poster boy. There is certainly a lesson to be learned. Living that kind of sinful life, while claiming God’s saving grace and believing in the OSAS/OJAJ doctrine, will cause loss of salvation. Did Ravi genuinely repent before he died? Who knows. None of my business. But, his story should make everyone think about the bigger picture.

[Philsworld]

This destroys today’s dispensationalism that focused on the physical nation of Israel being relevant in Prophecy.

Millions of Christians will lose their salvation because of this Satanic lie. They are expecting a secret rapture, no antichrist, and no Mark of the Beast. They will have chosen poorly. Biblical End time prophecy has absolutely nothing to do with Literal Israel. Satan, through the Papacy and Evangelical dispensationalism, says otherwise. He says focus on Literal Israel, not him and the Papacy. The Protestant Reformation was right. Most will not realize this until it’s too late.

[Mr Rogers]

“They CHOSE Christ, but because of their lawlessness, Christ rejected them.”

When we are born again, we receive the Holy Spirit. We are born again. He will not tolerate our living in cheerful sin!

There is a weird idea that we need to “accept” Jesus. No, He needs to accept us. And He doesn’t accept someone who wants Him as his buddy who will bail him out in times of trouble, or who expect Jesus to give him a lot of cash and perpetual health.

Jesus is either our Lord, or He isn’t there. Lots of phonies call Him “Lord, Lord” but then screw around or pretend sin is nothing - and those phonies are the ones covered in Matt 7. The Gospel is “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.” (Mark 1)

Not “Jesus wants you happy” and not “Jesus doesn’t care about sin”. It starts with REPENT - turn away from sin - and accepts the KINGDOM of Heaven. There is no real conversion if someone does NOT repent and commit to Jesus as Lord, because Jesus IS Lord and no man can strip that title away from Him!

However, we retain free will and can still turn away and reject Jesus again. That is apostasy. Peter was NOT abandoned when he “denied” Jesus with his lips. He still believed inside and was grief-stricken. But there are some who believe, and then reject Jesus. And they are in trouble!

[Mean Daddy]

That’s the irony (right word?) of the cross where Mother Teresa could be in hell and Hitler in heaven with a perfect confession.

[NorthStarOkie]

Regarding OSAS, Hebrews 10:25ff pretty much nails it. There is no doubt that this is addressed to authentic Christians who wish to avoid persecution.

The command is given, “...forsake not the assembly of the saints, as some (habitually) do...”

This establishes that they are authentic Christians.

The topic then incorporates “willful sin” with the statement, “...for if we sin willfully, there is no more sacrifice for sin...” This places an equals sign between those who purposely choose to miss worship and those who will be under condemnation. To put this as a simple declarative sentence, “THE BIBLE SAYS: Willfully and habitually avoiding the worship service will lead to condemnation.” As a generalization, “...knowing to do good, but choosing to continue in it, is sin...” applies to all sorts of actions and thoughts.

It would seem to be useless to defend oneself by claiming to accidentally sin again and again.

OSAS cannot be consistent in the least bit with that passage.

Some appeal to Paul to support “always saved,” when he says “we are SEALED” and “who can separate us from God” but then Paul says he buffets his body lest he, himself, be disqualified. Paul thinks he can lose his salvation; but what does he know?

Some appear to have mastered the art of “straining at gnats and swallowing camels.”

[daniel1212]

That is NOT the question. Rather, can someone be a Christian and then CHOOSE to reject their own salvation?

If we are willing to honestly consider and follow the Truth of the word of God wherever it leads (which is not to the cult , then we should concede that God many times warns believers, as believers, against forfeiting what justifying obtained. Such as against developing an "evil heart of unbelief in departing from living God," from the faith they once held, falling from grace, making Christ of no effect, to no profit, drawing back to perdition," and yielding to pressure to deny the faith after conversion, so that Paul's labor would be in vain, (Gal. 5:1-5; Heb. 3:12-14; Heb. 10:25-31, Heb. 10: 38-39; 1 Thessalonians 3:5)

And because ye are sons [Paul's audience], God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. (Galatians 4:6)

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again [those who were set free] with the yoke of bondage [going back into what they were set free from]. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if [submission to Judaizers these believers are being warned against] ye be circumcised [signifying justification obtained by keeping all the law], Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become [an effectual change due to their choice] of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace[their former state]. For we [those who continue to believe] through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. (Galatians 5:1-5)

Take heed, brethren, [contextually not a general sense, but as believers] lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God [a departure from their former state s believers]. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin [a change of heart]. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end [[perseverance of the saints]. (Hebrews 3:12-14)

Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering [continued exhortation to persevere]; (for he is faithful that promised And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, [indicating departing from the faith, as follows] as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. (Hebrews 10:23-25)

For if [a choice brethren are warned against] we [not just you] sin wilfully [not out of weakness, but with full consent, as a decision not to continue but to depart, signified by giving up being with the believers] after that we have received the knowledge of the truth [a term which refers to believing, as per 1Tim. 2:4; 2Tim. 3:7], there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins [cf. Hebrews 6:6-8; a terminal condition of judgment, with no provision for repentance and forgiveness, having forfeited what saving faith obtained], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Hebrews 10:26-27)

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified [a past condition, appropriated by faith, now forfeited by a definite denial of the same] , an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (Hebrews 10:28-29)

Cast not away therefore your confidence, [the issue being faith, out of which obedience flows] which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise [not that doing earns the promise, but that saving faith is that which finally perseveres, which faith as manifested in works God - who gave faith and the ability and motivation to obey - rewards under grace] For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

Now the just shall live by faith [the just live by faith, not merely profess it, with such faith being what appropriates justification]: but if any man draw back [a denial of justifying faith], my soul shall have no pleasure in him [as solemnly, fearfully described above]. But we [who do not draw back, but persevere] are not of them who draw back unto perdition [contextually a terminal condition of judgment, with no provision for repentance and forgiveness due to treating Christ with contempt] but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:35-39)

But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. (1 Corinthians 11:32)

For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know. For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain. (1 Thessalonians 3:4-5)

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory [katechō:  hold fast: cf. 1Ths. 5:21] what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. (1 Corinthians 15:1-2)
Such departing from the the living God, drawing backing into perdition, falling from grace, etc., is likely the the "great transgression," (Psalms 9:13) that of having "wickedly departed from my God,"(2 Samuel 22:22) which David stated he did not do, despite his sins, for unlike apostates he overall kept the ways of the Lord, and confessed in repentance when convicted of not doing so, (2 Samuel 12:7-13)

Note again that the above verses are clearly written to believers as believers, exhorting them to continue in the faith and warning against rejecting it, and thus these cannot be dismissed as never having been born again , although there are those who left fellowship since they were never in Christ. (1 John 2:19)

[kinsman redeemer]

I completely agree with you.

When I saw the title, John MacArthur questions Ravi Zacharias salvation, I immediately thought two things:

MacArthur is really big on "good works" as proof of salvation. He opposes "easy-believism" (and then doesn't--it's weird). I think John MacArthur is a little quick to judge other's on this. [[and I must quickly add - I love his teaching]]
and
I make it a practice NEVER to question someone else's position before God (their salvation status). I am supposed to "examine" myself.

Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test! I hope you will find out that we have not failed the test. But we pray to God that you may not do wrong—not that we may appear to have met the test, but that you may do what is right, though we may seem to have failed. For we cannot do anything against the truth, but only for the truth. For we are glad when we are weak and you are strong. Your restoration is what we pray for. 2 Corinthians 13:5-9

[kinsman redeemer]

Round up the "usual suspects"

[Big Red Badger]

OSAS——I don’t think that’s a given.
Workout Your Salvation with Fear And Trembling.
.
That ‘still small voice’ is there for Us.

[Big Red Badger]

Faith and Repentance is what John MacArthur said.
.
We shall not know about Ravi
This side of Glory.