Posted on 05/11/2018 7:25:14 AM PDT by ebb tide
No she doesn't....but apparently you've bought the made up false history taught to so many Roman Catholics.
Your post from #86 asserted the following to mommd:
Also please document the “Roman Church” or acknowledge that this is just a protestant nickname.
I provided you with Roman Catholic sources that showed the term Roman Catholic was in use well before the Reformation to which you've had no reply. FYI the Reformation was from 1517-1648. You may note the dates below are prior to the Reformation.
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Pope Innocent III, (1208: DS 792): "We believe in our heart and confess in our mouth that there is one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic apostolic Church, outside of which we believe no one is saved."
Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 - 1216): "With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved." (Denzinger 423)
In 1321 Pope John XXII wrote in a letter to the Armenians: "[The Roman Catholic Church] teaches...that the souls...of those who die in mortal sin, or with original sin only, descend immediately into hell; however to be punished with different penalties and in different places." (Denz. 493a)
http://www.catholic-legate.com/articles/rigorism.html
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I do hope as an educated Roman Catholic, or at least you are now, that you see the error of your post and will publicly admit you were wrong with your facts.
You were wrong in your assertion regarding the name Roman Catholic being a "protestant nickname".....why should be take your word on anything else related to Roman Catholicism?
Will you admit your error or will you just keep drinking the Roman Catholic kool-aid?
You are WRONG again as your source is wrong again.
The correct quote:
Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude of the people also be; even as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. —Letter to the Smyrnaeans, Ch 8
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/apologetics-with-st-ignatius-of-antioch
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"Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be, even as wheresoever Christ Jesus is, there is the catholic church.
https://www.christianitytoday.com/history/people/martyrs/ignatius-of-antioch.html
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"Where there is Christ Jesus, there is the Catholic Church."307 307 St. Ignatius of Antioch, Ad Smyrn. 8,2:Apostolic Fathers,II/2,311.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm
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8:2 Wherever the bishop appear, there let the multitude be; even as wherever Christ Jesus is, there is the Catholic Church.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-smyrnaeans-hoole.html
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Instead of living up to your handle nickname whereby you've added sum (adsum) to what has been revealed, now you've deleted sum.
You now have the credibility of Obama or Hillary.
How can you expect anyone to take your word on anything related to these matters going forward?
I have tried to be nice now I will be blunt I have the full Truth of Jesus Christ as revealed by the Holy Spirit in Scripture. The body of knowledge you claim in the Roman Church contains much error and frankly downright blasphemy and apostasy. Luther tried to reform then ultimately fled from the poison contained therein. Besides the well documented extra biblical heresies of your sect have you looked at the wealth and power the Roman Church has amassed? As followers of Christ we are told to store up our treasure in heaven. The Roman Church has sold itself repeatedly for earthly wealth and power. They have their reward.
I have several Roman friends that I and others have had the privilege of sharing the simple Truth of the Gospel with. The change in their life and attitude when they realize salvation is a free gift they can add nothing to and that they can be assured of is both wonderful and heartbreaking. Heartbreaking when they realize how much of their life they have wasted trying to earn salvation through works, something they knew deep inside they could never do. Sadly o have family members still ensnared in Rome’s web. And despite what other have accused Protestants of they are
Pro abortion, lived together openly before marriage and are quite liberal. And good members of their local parish so there goes the argument of people fleeing Rome so they can have their favorite sins. Apparently you can be Roman and still have your favorite sin
I wish no Roman Catholic I’ll. In fact I wish you could all have the joy and assurance of Salvation those of us you look down on already have. But the Roman sect? I hate it for what it does to its followers.
I wish you joy and peace in Jesus Christ and Him alone
Thank you for the full quote. What I emphasized was the written use of the name Catholic Church as opposed to the name was changed by Constantine 300 years later from an erroneous previous post. It is too bad that instead of staying focused on the comment and responding, you attempt to ignore the main comment.
Again, if you read my original post, I stated that the actual name was the “Catholic Church” and not the Roman Catholic Church. Yes even the Catholics use this name as it has become a common way to identify the Catholic Church. Catholics are not opposed to be referred to as Roman Catholics. The Pope is the Bishop of the Roman diocese. There is a history of derogatory comments. I do apologize if I implied that protestants were the first to use the term Roman Catholic Church.
There is a lot of misinformation posted by many here on the Catholic Faith, including that the Catholic Church teaches that salvation is earned by works.
Are we saved by faith alone? No way! As we saw before, in Matthew 19:16-19, Jesus himself said to a rich young man who had asked him what he needed to do to have eternal life:
… If you would enter life, keep the commandments… You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
Or, how about Matthew 12:36-37? Here, Jesus says:
I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.
That sounds like there is more to this justification thing than faith alone.
We believe that salvation is a process by which we come closer to God throughout our whole life as we participate in the sacraments and the grace that comes through them. But it is not true that man plays as important a role as God. God the Father planned our salvation, not man. God the Son gained our salvation by his death and resurrection; no one else did these things. And God the Holy Spirit infused the very love of God into our hearts by his presence (cf. Rom. 5:5). This is beyond our human ability. Still, we must cooperate with God’s grace to find eternal happiness with God. If we don’t, we will be cut off from God forever.
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/is-salvation-an-act-or-a-process
We do believe that works are evidence of true faith, but that is not the only role they play. Works also play a role in our final justification. If we take Paul’s statements about Abraham being justified by faith in Galatians 3:6 and Romans 4:3–4 and put them together with James’s statement about Abraham being justified by his work of offering up Isaac in James 2:21, we rightly conclude that salvation is a process with many points of justification along the path to heaven.
Wait....what?
Jesus Himself said that by believing we are saved.
John 3:3-8 Jesus answered him,“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
John 3:14-18 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
John 20:30-31 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Sanctification is the process by which we become more conformed to the character of Christ and is a process in which obedience to God plays a role.
Catholicism's problem is that it conflates salvation with sanctification.
It also chooses to ignore the difference between salvation and the rewards we are promised when we get to heaven.
The rewards for obedience can be gained of lost through works but that does NOT affect the salvation.
Salvation is not the reward for obedience.
The reward is not salvation, it is crowns that we give back to Jesus.
Catholics also like to take credit for their contribution to salvation and yet we are told in Scripture that works are not part of getting saved and the reason is that so no man can boast.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
It's not even our desire to do what's right, it's God who puts it in our hearts in the first place.
Philippians 2:12-13 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
We can't even come to Him unless He draws us.
John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness LONG before Isaac was even born.
The argument about Abraham being righteous because of his work offering up Isaac is totally unfounded because he couldn't have offered up the son that didn't yet exist when God declared him righteous.
No. You wrongly attempted to pass off a quote to advance your position.
If, and it's a big if, you were attempting to emphasize the Catholic aspect of the quote you would have been better served to have quoted as follows:
"Wherever the bishop appears ...there is the catholic church.
However, even that rendering changes the meaning of the quote. The meaning of the quote is where Christ is there is the catholic [not Roman] church. That is to say, the body of believers professing belief in Him.
Again, if you read my original post, I stated that the actual name was the “Catholic Church” and not the Roman Catholic Church. Yes even the Catholics use this name as it has become a common way to identify the Catholic Church. Catholics are not opposed to be referred to as Roman Catholics. The Pope is the Bishop of the Roman diocese. There is a history of derogatory comments. I do apologize if I implied that protestants were the first to use the term Roman Catholic Church.
Yet that was your statement as noted in your post #86:
Also please document the “Roman Church” or acknowledge that this is just a protestant nickname..
Your apology is duly noted and accepted. I do respect someone who will admit error.
I will say in fairness though you are not the only RC to have made this claim.
There is a lot of misinformation posted by many here on the Catholic Faith, including that the Catholic Church teaches that salvation is earned by works.
Yes...as has been witnessed on this thread.
Are we saved by faith alone? No way! As we saw before, in Matthew 19:16-19, Jesus himself said to a rich young man who had asked him what he needed to do to have eternal life:
… If you would enter life, keep the commandments… You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
Context ADSUM...context. Jesus knew the young man had not kept the commandments. He was emphasizing the necessity of following Him...and not the Law as a means of salvation. All of those things the young man had done, He dismissed and said to follow Him....not continue to keep the Law.
The New Testament is clear it is by faith we have eternal life.
24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. John 5:24 NASB
John, more than the other writers of the Gospels, emphasizes belief in Him for salvation.
An interesting exercise is to do a word study on believe. Biblegateway.com is an excellent resource for this. Multiple versions of the NT are available for study.
We believe that salvation is a process by which we come closer to God throughout our whole life as we participate in the sacraments and the grace that comes through them.
A person is saved as much as they are going to be saved when they follow Christ. There is no additional salvation one gains. I will agree the fellowship/relationship aspect of this grows...or should grow.
The moment we profess faith in Christ, or as Paul notes in Romans 10, "whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."
The Greek rendering of the verb for "will be saved" is in the future indicative. Without going into all the detail, though I will be glad to provide for you, your salvation is a done deal.
But it is not true that man plays as important a role as God.
Our only role is to believe.
God the Father planned our salvation, not man. God the Son gained our salvation by his death and resurrection; no one else did these things.
Concur 100%.
And God the Holy Spirit infused the very love of God into our hearts by his presence (cf. Rom. 5:5). This is beyond our human ability.
Concur 100%.
It is interesting you use Romans 5:5. If you go on to read the rest of the chapter, especially in the Greek, Paul is clear we are saved only through the actions of God. There is nothing we are able to do outside of believe. Again, the Greek behind all of this really brings this aspect of the passage into clarity.
Still, we must cooperate with God’s grace to find eternal happiness with God. If we don’t, we will be cut off from God forever.
Cooperate? There is nothing we can do to equal the Cross. No good deed comes close to the Cross.
Paul considered everything he'd done to be as rubbish in relation to knowing Christ.
Now, if you mean to gain a closer fellowship with Him I would agree to that.
When a person "calls upon the name of the Lord" they are sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise (Eph 1:13-14; 4:30). I find no place in the NT where a believer is ever unsealed.
In the passage above from John 5:24 Jesus is making an offer that is not taken away.
We are either saved or we are not saved.
I will admit that because of sin we may not "feel" like we are saved. But that is a trick by the enemy to get us to deny the promises of Christ.
We do believe that works are evidence of true faith
Agree.
Paul notes this in Ephesians 2:8-10.
, but that is not the only role they play. Works also play a role in our final justification. If we take Paul’s statements about Abraham being justified by faith in Galatians 3:6 and Romans 4:3–4 and put them together with James’s statement about Abraham being justified by his work of offering up Isaac in James 2:21, we rightly conclude that salvation is a process with many points of justification along the path to heaven.
Recall righteousness had already been credited to Abraham prior to his willingness to offer up Isaac. He was at that moment of belief saved...because he believed God.
Paul in Romans on Abraham...
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” Romans 4:1-3 NASB.
You have to include v2 to correctly understand the passage.
Both Paul and James cite the same verse in Genesis....And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.
We have to understand how the two writers were using justification to understand the passage in question. They're arguing opposite sides of the same coin.
What if Abraham had not been willing to offer Isaac? Still saved?
Yes.
Recall also the example of Rahab the prostitute. She had believed in God before helping the messengers. Her faith was justified in her subsequent actions.
I will agree that as believers in Christ we are to produce fruit (works if you will) for the Kingdom of God. That is a clear teaching of the NT. But the fruit is evidence of something that has happened on the inside of us....belief in Christ.
You can do a lot of "good things" and not have salvation in Christ. All those things will not save you.
But if you are a follower of Christ, that is a believer in Him, you will produce fruit. But it is the belief in Him that saves you.
Some will produce a little fruit....others a whole bunch...but they are both still saved.
An interesting question....what if Peter had died the day after the crucifixion? He has not had a chance to do any of the things he later did. Not one sermon preached. No witness to the Jews. He had on more than one occasion professed belief in Christ.
Is he still saved?
>> “The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” <<
How many read that declaration without grasping the fullness of its meaning?
How many declare themselves "born of the spirit" yet have never moved invisibly through a crowd as the wind does?
.
Ephesians 2. We are saved by grace through faith not works. No way to make it say anything else.
We are not saved by our works unless you want to call St. Paul a liar.
That's the problem about making your bed...people expect you to lie in it. ;o)
John 6:22-36
22 The next day the crowd that had stayed on the opposite shore of the lake realized that only one boat had been there, and that Jesus had not entered it with his disciples, but that they had gone away alone. 23 Then some boats from Tiberias landed near the place where the people had eaten the bread after the Lord had given thanks. 24 Once the crowd realized that neither Jesus nor his disciples were there, they got into the boats and went to Capernaum in search of Jesus.
25 When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, “Rabbi, when did you get here?”
26 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.” Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
30 So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’[c]”
32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
34 “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
1 John 3:21-23 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.
Remove the strikeout; it’s both of the above!
This man clearly doesn’t understand Jesus.
I didn’t read the whole thing. I am so disgusted with so much rationalization. To say Jesus did not understand homosexuality, is to say that homosexuals do not understand sin. IMHO.
I remember an old nun, many moons ago, saying that evil thinkers try to use “rationalization” to defend their deeds.
I was young and did not know what she meant, but she was so right.
Jesus said it first...
In the past, it was always a joke to ask if the pope was catholic. Now, I guess it’s a legitimate question. 😁🤣👍
This Catholic isn’t going anywhere. I see clearly what is going on: there is a hostile takeover attempt of the Church being attempted. Pope Francis is probably an atheist; in any case, he’s no Catholic. Why would I do exactly what Satan wants, which is leave the Church, abandoning it to Satan?
I’ll say it again: I’m not going anywhere.
This is a very interesting, and very polarizing, question.
I have two kind of works-related questions:
1) What is the meaning of Final Judgement? The shepherd knows His own, yes? So at the second coming, when the wheat is sifted from the chaff and the sheep are separated from the goats, what is it that is being sifted and judged, if not works?
2) To what extent is faith a work? Many of my most convicted “faith alone” friends struggle mightily to be seen as believers, I suppose reflecting their internal struggle over it.
Right on Mom. As an ex Roman Catholic myself, I can relate to that. I was 21 years old, and in the USAF, when I got saved. I too, thought my young life had been a total waste, while I was stuck on the Roman Catholic hamster wheel of frustration.
Now, I am surrounded by Catholics, and spend my time trying to lead others out of the Catholic Church, into the REAL truth, of the REAL gospel, not this “other” gospel that I was taught, out of the catechism. 😁👍
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