Posted on 09/19/2017 6:22:17 PM PDT by hiho hiho
Dear ones,
I know youre tired. Run down. Sad. Fed up. Angry, even.
I dont blame you one bit.
I know the deep paucity you feel in your bones. The worst possible Sunday afternoon tragedy used to be a dry pot roast, a brown, leathery consequence of post-benediction parking lot conferences with Tom or Betty.
Now you go home, exhausted from the noise, bothered by the blatant emotional manipulation, haunted by the poverty you see. Youve gone home angry and annoyed. Youve wept over what theyve done with your church, with THE church.
You know worship is supposed to be more than a rock show.
I know the people around you dont get it, either. Youve been told that youre doing Satans work by daring to question the church growth strategists leaders in front of you.
Theyve said youre hindering the work of the Holy Spirit.
Youve been called a Pharisee.
A baby.
A curmudgeon.
An a-hole.
Its been alleged that youre callously indifferent to the eternal souls of the unchurched.
Even the ones you count as friends think youre just pining for the good ol days. At the very least, youre laughingly dismissed.
Your gifts have been shunned, ignored, wasted. Heck, Ive been there, too, that time the paralegal became my boss.
Maybe youve been barred from your former places of service, replaced by an American Idol wanna-be with a hot mic and a six-string Ovation.
If you feel like youre just barely hanging on, please let me offer this one piece of advice.
Leave. Just leave it all behind.
Dear brothers and sisters, if this is you, hear me out.
You can go. Yes, you can go.
I dont say this lightly. There is real, unabashed grief in this prospect.
I know you have friends at your church. Maybe its the only spiritual home youve ever known. Youve witnessed marriages there. Youve rejoiced as your community has been shaped by water and Word. Youve said goodbye to loved ones. Youve given faithfully through the spiritual Advents and Christmases, the Lents and the Easters. Youve cared together for the communities and the world around you. But its not the same place. Somethings changed, and its something that was never supposed to change. Not like this, anyhow.
Please know that if nobody else gets you, I do. I stand with you and honor you in your grief. Youre not being selfish or petty. You dont have an attitude problem.
But lets face it. Its just not the same.
This beloved community, which once marked Sundays by coming together for the work of Gods people, is now a haven for entertainment. Its a concert venue, really. If it werent for a few casual mentions of God and Jesus you wouldnt even know they had anything to do with this whole thing.
Hale and hearty strains of disciplined worshipers are gone, and in their place, an electronic assault of primal, orgasmic ad libs.
Your script, your job, your voice have all been taken away, and now you just sit there, empty-handed, and empty-souled.
Songs of faith have been replaced by remarkably vapid, thoroughly mundane jesusy ditties.
The rhythm of the church year has given way to the mixed-metered syncopation of popular whim.
Sermons are guided by what the pastor says God is telling him (and its usually a him, unfortunately), not by a lectionary or a liturgical calendar.
Sacraments? Whats a sacrament? Commercial pop music is our new contemporary pseudo-sacrament.
There was once appropriate room for a complete range of human emotion, freely flowing from the retelling and reenactment of Gods mighty acts in Jesus Christ. Sobriety, grief, intentionality, urgency, repentance, lament resolution, thanksgiving, joy. And so forth and so on. Now, were expected to have fun. Church is the place for a good time, in Jesus thoroughly amusing name.
Ive seen it too. This is how I grew up, in fact. I had a sneaking suspicion that there was more to church than the derivative music and self-aggrandizing topical sermon series. If there wasnt, Id have been through with church as soon as I moved out on my own.
Thank God that wasnt it
Worshiper, please be honest. As tough as it is, you know you cant stay here, biding the months or years or decades until by Gods grace you grow deaf, blind, and senile. You are right to feel this way. It isnt a matter of taste or preference, whatever the entertainers may say.
Youre not being selfish. This is so much deeper than that.
The impetus for your grief is not hurt feelings, or even whats happening with your own church. You grieve over whats happened to the church.
This is worship, for Gods sake. And theyve pulled it up by the roots. Dear Christian, just go.
You have my blessing, even if you have no one elses.
Go home and rest. Go home and heal. Go home, and dont come back.
Go home and stay, if you have to. For a while, at least.
When your alarm clock chimes next Sunday, hit the snooze. Turn it off. Let your pew stadium-style seat stay cold this week.
And next week, maybe.
Really, stay home for as long as it takes.
But dont stay there forever.
After all, there are others who feel like you.
And there are still faith communities that have resisted preferential worship and consumer, little-C christianity.
You may have to look a little harder for them. They dont have billboards. They dont usually have huge crosses announcing their presence just for the hell of it. They probably dont have TV commercials or radio spots or celebrity pastors.
You may have to go outside the faith tradition thats become part of your identity. They might not sing all the same songs or use all the same language you remember. You might not agree with all their theology. There may be faithful followers there who vote differently than you. They might not even agree with you on every hot-button political issue. Thats okay. The churchs worship matters more than any of those things.
So when the buzzing in your ears has finally faded. When the fog has lifted. When the menacing waters of the entertainment church have finally receded. When you can breathe again, get back out there. When the post-traumatic worship disorder has released, start burning the early Sunday oil again.
Find a place where you can sit and rest and not be triggered.
Find a place where you can go and participate and just be part of the church once more.
Find a place where all voices have a prayer to pray, a song to sing, a sermon to say, and a common story to tell.
Find a place where The body of Christ, broken for you, means so much more than Its who I am, its who I am, its who I am.
Find a place where Table, Font, and Pulpit havent been displaced by drum cage, music stand, and Madonna mic.
Find a place where the generational arrogance doesnt obscure the multi-directional vision of true Christian worship.
And be a part of the worshiping community once again.
I wont blame you if you go and never come back.
Ill understand. That could have been me, too.
But, dear brother and sister, you matter.
And the church matters.
So, please go, but dont stay gone forever.
Love,
Jonathan
Thanks and God bless you.
we are under grace.
But we can not use that as an excuse not to do what Jesus said to do, such as do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
We are saved by grace through faith, our faith can only be shown by the works we do, not works of the law but works of faith.
We are not talking about the works of the law but the works of faith.
James 2
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Any one can say they have faith, but do they?
Any one can say they believe but do they?
Any one can say they have works, let us see their works and maybe we can see their faith and belief by their works.
show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.James 2:18.
You cannot be saved by your works.
This does not nullify works as being commanded or desirable.
My only problem is that so many people do not understand that Paul was talking about the works of the law and James was talking about the works of faith, they had no disagreement.
James was just explaining what Jesus plainly said in Mathew 25 the parable of the sheep and goats where the goats go to hell because they did no works of faith and the sheep went into Gods kingdom because they did the works of faith.
I hear ya.
Catholics could NEVER call Christ a liar. Where are you getting this mistaken information?
But on the other hand i only read the Bible and pay no attention to denominational rhetoric so i do not deny that Mary could have been a perpetual virgin.
I have no doubt there are virgins in this world today for some reason or another, what better reason could any one have than what Mary had.
And she was the mother of one child.
I wrote this about Mary so you can see that i am not bias against the Catholics and also do not agree with the Protestants on many things.
I’m gonna chew on that one for a bit ok?
I’ll respond later today.
Can you give me an example of a “work of faith”?
That will help.
Im in favor of pastors being paid a living wage.
The early Church held all things in common, they each had jobs to do and were not hirelings.
They are hirelings today because they are preaching for wages.
If they were really called by God they would not lower themselves by taking a wage.
The preachers who work for some organization will not preach Gods word, they preach what the bosses tell them to preach, they can not be trusted.
I know pastors who hold down a job and do a great job of preaching, and they will preach Gods word instead of their overseers word or the town whore`s word.
No hirelings for me.
James is talking about EVIDENCE of your salvation that is seen by others, not a requirement for salvation.
But we do not have to read about what James or Paul says, why not read what our master says.
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Please see 3rd chapter of Titus.
Worship God.
Blessed be God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit
“That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth.”
“every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
“O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker.”
“worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness: fear before him, all the earth.”
THEY DON’T REMEMBER DOING THE GOOD WORKS!...
The ones who did the works Jesus said to do are the ones who went into Gods kingdom.
Paul said that the works of the law does not save, it is easy for people who read this for the first time to fail to distinguish the works of the law from the works of faith.
Those who preach that we need not do what Jesus said to do are preaching false doctrine.
James 2
14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him? 15 And if a brother or sister be naked, and want daily food: 16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit? 17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.
Any one can say they have faith but that does not mean they have any.
Matthew 28:20
teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
John 15:14
“You are My friends if you do what I command you.
John 14:15
“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
John 14:21
“He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”
The commandments are first.......
1 John 2:4
The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
There goes the faith....
All of your references on works falls under this one:
Jhn 13:34
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Jesus sacrifice nullified the penalty for sin for those who belong to Him.
Rom 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Now... if you want to hold onto the law, go right ahead.... you will be judged according to it.
I prefer Grace.
I have long attended a large church that does not pass a basket or plate. There is a place as you exit church you can put a donation. Many tithe online not in church.
Jhn 13:34
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
1 John 2:4
The one who says, I have come to know Him, and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
Mathew 5
43 You have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thy enemy. 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you:
Luke 10 25:37
Tells us how we are to love.
Also Luke 6
12 All things therefore whatsoever you would that men should do to you, do you also to them. For this is the law and the prophets.
The above is what James was talking about.
Mathew 7
21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.
I prefer Grace..........
Paul was talking about the works of the law.
Jesus and James was talking about the works of faith, don`t you get it?
It does take some Bible reading to see the difference, but just hang in there and you will come along.
I’m taking you back to your first reply to me:
Me: You cannot be saved by your works. This does not nullify works as being commanded or desirable.
You: Ok, i understand and i agree.
Now I ask you what you were agreeing with... because you have apparently completely flipped from your first post.
>>> Jesus and James was talking about the works of faith, don`t you get it?
Please define “work of faith” in a single sentence.
Then give me an example of a work of faith that we can apply to our lives today.
“Following His commandments” is too broad. Give me a specific example.
You: Ok, i understand and i agree.
You. Please define work of faith in a single sentence.
Help some one who needs help.
You. Then give me an example of a work of faith that we can apply to our lives today.
James 2
14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?
15 And if a brother or sister be naked, and want daily food:
16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit?
Why can`t we apply that to our lives?
17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.
You. Following His commandments is too broad. Give me a specific example.
Mathew 22:37, 40
Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind.
38 This is the greatest and the first commandment. 39 And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
40 On these two commandments dependeth the whole law and the prophets.
How do you love your neighbors?
By doing to them as you would have them do unto you, and as Jesus described in the parable of the Sheep and Goats.
And as James described in James 2.
>Please define work of faith in a single sentence.
>>> Help some one who needs help.
Ok... so you say that helping someone who needs help is a work of faith.
Follow up questions:
1. How many times does someone need to help someone who needs help in order to be considered saved by God? Once? Every day? All their life? What if they miss one? (i.e. keep walking on one or two occasions even though before they had stopped before, and do so again later)
2. Is this to say that someone who does not believe in Jesus or God for that matter is saved if they help someone who needs help??? They DID complete a work of faith did they not???
3. If helping someone who needs help is a work of faith, then what is the faith in? self? or something else?
Clearly, we can cite examples in both groups (righteous and unrighteous) from matthew 25 where a person can easily fall into EITHER group on any given day or occasion under your definition of “work of faith”. Christians i’m sure have failed to help when they should have, and non-christians have helped (out of love) when they didn’t think they had to.
Therefore, your definition and example does not fit because it has NOTHING to do with faith, and sounds pretty unfair to me if the works described in Matthew 25 is the standard for righteousness. (i.e. surely we can find atheists who help others, and also christians who are not consistent)
Seems to me we could go even farther with it... I would submit that living your entire life without helping someone who needs help would be VERY difficult to do if not impossible... you would have to be one evil SOB!
Doesn’t sound like a very narrow gate to me on who will be saved.
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