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To: aMorePerfectUnion

“His worthiness doesn’t come to us by being the “most worthy.” Or works or sacraments.”

It comes from His grace, but He gives that to use through things like His works (e.g. the Sacraments). The Sacraments are HIS works. He died to give us grace using His physical body to do it. Likewise, He gives us grace using physical things and all of that grace comes from His death on the cross.

“It comes to us by the Grace of God, into the hands of faith in Him alone. It is His finished sacrifice on the cross and His righteousness, imputed to those who have placed their faith in Him.”

I think, in a sense, you’re cheapening the power and grace of God when you say He only imputes His righteousness. No, through the power of God’s grace we are actually transformed (Romans 12:2). That’s why St. Paul talks of the new man, a new creature (Eph. 4:24; 2 Corinthians 4:16). God shares Himself with us, shares His divine life with us. That’s called holiness and it is transformative. We are new creatures, not just imputed to be new, but actually new, transformed. This is one of the reasons why John saw no Temple in Heaven in Revelation 21:22.


19 posted on 09/16/2017 2:37:44 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Apparently I'm still living in your head rent free. At least now it isn't empty.)
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To: vladimir998
"It comes from His grace, but He gives that to use through things like His works (e.g. the Sacraments). "

Not in Scripture. There is no sacramental system that imputes any grace.

"The Sacraments are HIS works.

Not in Scripture. There is no sacramental system that imputes any grace.

"Likewise, He gives us grace using physical things and all of that grace comes from His death on the cross.

Not in Scripture. There is no sacramental system that imputes any grace.

"I think, in a sense, you’re cheapening the power and grace of God when you say He only imputes His righteousness.

"only" is a limited view of the "incredible gift" God gives when He imputes/credits the Righteousness of Christ to a believer.

"Therefore IT WAS also CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 23 Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, 24 but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification." (Romans 4)

"No, through the power of God’s grace we are actually transformed (Romans 12:2).

A separate reality and blessing.

And indeed, the believer who entrusts himself to Him alone is made the "righteousness of Christ."

31 posted on 09/16/2017 2:57:08 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: vladimir998

His work was His death, burial, and resurrection. His work was sacrificing Himself to be a living sacrifice for our sin and sin nature. The Lord’s supper was His Passover, to mark what He was about to be - the sacrificial Lamb. And as during the first Passover, the presence of the blood of the lamb caused the destroying angel to pass over the house so marked, His sacrifice allows all who trust in His sacrifice, to be “passed over”, protected, from the destruction that awaits those who will NOT trust the Lamb and His sacrifice. Faith without works is dead, but nowhere does Scripture tell us that taking communion is a work required for salvation. Yes, He does say in another place, “if you do not eat my body...”. And, “Do this in remembrance of Me”, Jesus said. He didn’t say do this to be saved, to become a follower of Jesus. He did say this cup is the New Covenant of blood, to be poured out for you. Obviously, he was speaking representationally, not literally. He was only present with them for this celebration that one last time, though over the 3 years of his public ministry, He had doubtless celebrated Passover with them, before. And Passover was once a year. Here, at this last Passover supper with Him, He is explaining the true meaning of the original Passover, that it is at last, HIS body, HIS blood that will be shed for them and for us. He says it all in the 6th chapter of Book of John: 28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. 30They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work? 31Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. 32Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. 33For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. 34Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. 42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? 43Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. 47Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. 48I am that bread of life. 49Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. 51I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

59These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

Many Disciples Turn Away
(Matthew 8:18-22; Luke 9:57-62; Luke 14:25-33)

60Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? 61When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? 62What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. 64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
That word, “eat”, is used both literally and figuratively, and yet the Jews in the synagogue, and many of His followers, took it literally. Because He had not given up His body and blood, they thought He might possibly be speaking literally. But as you can see from his own explanation, he is talking about beliefs, and accepting the sacrifice He was about to make, that they literally, could not grasp. When He was buried, His disciples and apostles were heartbroken. They hadn’t understood, at all, that He was going to sacrifice himself, then be resurrected.
To take this passage, and believe that it says the work of salvation is to take communion, is a belittling of the work that Jesus is. His blood was poured out. When He was resurrected, He didn’t say to the disciples, “Handle Me. See that I am flesh and blood”. He said, “I am flesh and bone”. That was not a slip if the tongue. Jesus didn’t make slips of the tongue. He presented His blood to the Father, in the Holy of Holies, in Heaven, in the Temple there. “Do this in remembrance of me”. That word remembrance, in the Greek, means recollection. Recall what was done, and what it represented. This we do, but as a commemoration, not as a means of salvation. I don’t want to argue with anyone. I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind. Especially against their will. I’m just stating what I believe, as is anyone who posts here. God bless us each, as we go about our lives.


41 posted on 09/16/2017 3:59:26 PM PDT by Flaming Conservative
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To: vladimir998; aMorePerfectUnion
through the power of God’s grace we are actually transformed (Romans 12:2). That’s why St. Paul talks of the new man, a new creature (Eph. 4:24; 2 Corinthians 4:16). God shares Himself with us, shares His divine life with us. That’s called holiness and it is transformative. We are new creatures, not just imputed to be new, but actually new, transformed. This is one of the reasons why John saw no Temple in Heaven in Revelation 21:22. ]

None of which is contrary to salvation by grace thru faith, which, contrary to Cath propaganda does not mean one is simply whitewashed, but that while one is accounted righteous and made accepted in the Beloved, and seated together with Him in Heaven, one His account, not because we have attained heavenly perfection of character, yet belief in the Lord Jesus also means that one is made spiritually alive, with an interior change of heart resulting in a changed life.

Luther even said such things as,

faith is a living and an essential thing, which makes a new creature of man, changes his spirit and wholly and completely converts him. It goes to the foundation and there accomplishes a renewal of the entire man; so, if I have previously seen a sinner, I now see in his changed conduct, manner and life, that he believes. So high and great a thing is faith.”[Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:341]

The kind of faith which overall will effect holiness and obedience is what appropriates the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, and thus the effects of faith are necessary if faith is to be considered salvific, and in fact the effects of faith justify one as being a believer. However, God justifieth the ungodly by faith which is counted for righteousness, (Romans 4:5)

And thus believers are warned against having an evil heart of unbelief, thus drawing back to perdition, which unbelief, as with faith, is evidence what what it effects. Thus faith and works go together.

113 posted on 09/18/2017 6:44:03 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Trust the risen Lord Jesus to save you as a damned and destitute sinner + be baptized + folllow Him)
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