Posted on 04/10/2017 6:40:46 PM PDT by fishtank
Keep spinning Vlad...keep spinning.
Keep misrepresenting things, eagleone...keep misrepresenting.
The 700 Club has plenty of stage lighting? (and some big hair, too) Does that count?
I do wonder if they've done more harm than good.
Oh ho! 01 F6 00!
If you pray for me, please do so to God as all prayer is to be directed to Him.
Saying that prayer to God for aid in holiness armors us against Hell in no way violates anything in Ephesians 6:10-17. When Jesus taught us to pray the Our Father one of the specific things we were to pray for was forgiveness of our sins and His aid in avoiding sin (Matthew 6:9-13). In the Rosary, we ask Mary to intercede for us with God so we can avoid sin and avoid Hell.
I always find it amazing that no where do we have any of the NT writers telling us to pray to Mary or to rely upon Mary for answered prayer or salvation.
One of the problems with the Rosary is the overwhelming emphasis on prayer to Mary.
And are we not instructed to avoid vain repetitious prayers? The Rosary certainly seems to fall into that category.
“11) What you ask through my Rosary, you shall obtain.”
This emphasizes Mary’s role as an advocate for us. Of course, all requests are subject to God’s will - and He naturally answers according to His plan in regard to our need and disposition.
Your note..."all requests are subject to God's will" is in contradiction of the open ended promise of the Rosary.
The promise is not absolute. An ignorant person might take it that way. A person with no regard for the truth who wishes to attack the Catholic Church would certainly portray it that way.
Whatever you ask....sure sounds like an absolute.
>> “5) Those who trust themselves to me through the Rosary, shall not perish.”<<
The Virgin Mary is a spiritual mother to us since she is our Lord’s mother and He is our Savior and Brother, and she’s a great advocate for us with her Divine Son as well.
No where in the NT is Mary ever accorded being our "spiritual mother." Another false claim of Roman Catholicism. It illustrates again that Jesus is somehow insufficient for the Roman Catholic.
Christians have always sought out her assistance and the Church even points this out in the beautiful Memorare prayer, “never was it known that anyone who fled to your protection, implored your help or sought your intercession, was left unaided”.
You would be more accurate in saying Roman Catholics have always sought out her assistance. And the word always is a stretch as that is an absolute word.
I know many people who have been aided through Mary’s intercession.
Of which we can neither confirm or deny.
This was foreseen in the story of the Wedding of Cana.,
Promise 5 is telling the person to trust themselves to "me"...that is the apparition.
It is is in contrast to the NT where we are told to trust ourselves to Jesus...not Mary. Just one of the many reasons Roman Catholics worship "Mary".
Mary, as we see her in the Bible, would never tell anyone that "those who trust themselves to me through the Rosary, shall not perish." She would be appalled at anything that took away the focus from Christ.
The wedding of Cana has been one of the most abused passages of Scripture by Roman Catholics to justify a whole range of false teachings regarding the Roman Catholic "Mary".
I've misrepresented nothing.
However, I can see where this conversation is going.
Have a good evening vlad.
Do you wear the Scapular? Maybe the Miraculous Medal?
“If you pray for me, please do so to God as all prayer is to be directed to Him.”
I wil pray to Mary through God’s power for her intercession with Christ. All for your benefit. Enjoy.
“I always find it amazing that no where do we have any of the NT writers telling us to pray to Mary or to rely upon Mary for answered prayer or salvation.”
I don’t find it at all amazing that no where do we have any of the NT writers telling us to believe in sola fide (it’s actually denounced if anything) or to practice sola scriptura. I also don’t find it at all amazing Protestants believe in sola fide and sola scriptura anyway.
“One of the problems with the Rosary is the overwhelming emphasis on prayer to Mary.”
No, it’s not a problem for a Marian prayer to be a Marian prayer.
“And are we not instructed to avoid vain repetitious prayers?”
We do. The Rosary is not vain. And repetition in itself is not an issue since Christ Himself repeated His prayers (Mark 14).
“The Rosary certainly seems to fall into that category.”
Nope.
“Your note...”all requests are subject to God’s will” is in contradiction of the open ended promise of the Rosary.”
Nope. We have always known that “all requests are subject to God’s will”.
“Whatever you ask....sure sounds like an absolute.”
But it wasn’t. Haven’t you ever read Matthew 21:22? “And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.” Clearly even that is not an absolute. Everyone here will admit they have prayed for something and had faith and still did not receive what they prayed for as they wanted it. Friends sometimes still die of cancer, couples sometimes still divorce, etc.
“No where in the NT is Mary ever accorded being our “spiritual mother.””
Many say she is - in the Gospel of John, for instance. But even if it were explicitly in scripture, i.e. the words were literally there in black and white, you would probably deny it.
“Another false claim of Roman Catholicism.”
Nope. Only yours.
“It illustrates again that Jesus is somehow insufficient for the Roman Catholic.”
No, it illustrates that Jesus is suprasufficient - so much so that He shares His offices with His saints.
“You would be more accurate in saying Roman Catholics have always sought out her assistance.”
Catholics have. And Eastern Orthodox. And Oriental Orthodox. And Anglicans. And some Lutherans. I was MORE ACCURATE than you.
“And the word always is a stretch as that is an absolute word.”
You’re stretching. Desperately apparently.
“Of which we can neither confirm or deny.”
No, there are cases that can be confirmed from eye witness testimony, for instance.
“It is is in contrast to the NT where we are told to trust ourselves to Jesus...not Mary. Just one of the many reasons Roman Catholics worship “Mary”.”
We don’t worship her and we can trust Jesus through His mother. Remember her words, “Do whatever he tells you.”
“Mary, as we see her in the Bible, would never tell anyone that “those who trust themselves to me through the Rosary, shall not perish.””
Except the quote (John 2:5) shows she was saying that people should trust her words about trusting in Him and His power to save you when in need.
“She would be appalled at anything that took away the focus from Christ.”
Marian devotions always turn the focus to Christ.
“The wedding of Cana has been one of the most abused passages of Scripture by Roman Catholics to justify a whole range of false teachings regarding the Roman Catholic “Mary”.”
No, the Wedding of Cana has just been one of the most poorly understood passages of Scripture on the part of Protestants anti-Catholics to dismiss a whole range of true teachings about Mary.
“One follow up....I noticed you didn’t answer previously.
Do you wear the Scapular?”
No.
“Maybe the Miraculous Medal?”
No.
“I’ve misrepresented nothing.”
yes, you have. You always do.
“However, I can see where this conversation is going.”
It’s going where it always goes: You make false statements and I reject them. Then you make the false statements again.
“Have a good evening vlad.”
I will.
.
Both Peter and John prophecy that the material universe shall cease.
Peter says with fervent heat, and john says because no place was found for them.
Yeshua gave us the reason in John ch 3. (we won’t need it)
The Father is outside of time and space, so to be with him, we also must be changed to a form that can exist without time and space.
You are thinking in materiel terms, which is natural since it is all we have known, but it was created, so there is something superior. We just cannot comprehend it in our present form.
I never watch the 700 Club, so I don't know. 😀 I was thinking more along the lines of false doctrines, as being the extra "lights" that false religious systems need, to attract followers. Things like idolatry, necromancy, grace + works plan of salvation, and other false issues of salvation, or maybe we could just shorten it and say, teaching for doctrine, the commandments of men. 🔥😱
Call no man father.
You've failed to list these so called REQUIREMNETS.
Perhaps it was MARY who commanded them!
After all; if she can PROMISE all this stuff; she SURELY wouldn't mind a few MILLION statues in niches around the world.
Besides the Indulgences attached to the Rosary, Our Lady revealed to St. Dominic and Blessed Alan de la Roche additional benefits for those who devoutly pray the Rosary. Our Lady's promise is shown in darker blue text. Additional explanation on and doctrinal connections to each promise is shown following in the smaller normal text font and color. Note that the Rosary is the prayer (non-Liturgical) with the most published Magisterial / Papal documents expounding on its excellence. Vatican II's summary on Our Lady is contained in Lumen Gentium chapter VIII.
| 1. | Whosoever shall faithfully serve me by the recitation of the Rosary shall receive signal graces. Signal Graces are those special and unique Graces to help sanctify us in our state in life. See the remaining promises for an explanation for which these will consist. St. Louis de Montfort states emphatically that the best and fastest way to union with Our Lord is via Our Lady [True Devotion to Mary, chapter four]. |
| 2. | I promise my special protection and the greatest graces to all those who shall recite the Rosary. Our Lady is our Advocate and the channel of all God's Grace to us. Our Lady is simply highlighting that She will watch especially over us who pray the Rosary. (see Lumen Gentium chapter VIII - Our Lady #62) [a great more detail is available on this topic in True Devotion to Mary, chapter four, by St. Louis de Montfort] |
| 3. | The Rosary shall be a powerful armor against hell, it will destroy vice, decrease sin and defeat heresies. This promise, along with the next, is simply the reminder on how fervent prayer will help us all grow in holiness by avoiding sin, especially a prayer with the excellence of the Rosary. An increase in holiness necessarily requires a reduction in sin, vice, and doctrinal errors (heresies). If only the Modernists could be convinced to pray the Rosary! (see Lumen Gentium chapter V - The Call to Holiness #42) St. Louis de Montfort states "Since Mary alone crushed all heresies, as we are told by the Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit (Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary)..." [True Devotion to Mary #167] |
| 4. | It will cause good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the hearts of men from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire for Eternal Things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means. This promise, along with the previous, is the positive part, that being to live in virtue. Becoming holy is not only avoiding sin, but also growing in virtue. (see Lumen Gentium chapter V - The Call to Holiness #42) |
| 5. | The soul which recommends itself to me by the recitation of the Rosary shall not perish. Since Our Lady is our Mother and Advocate, She always assists those who call on Her implicitly by praying the Rosary. The Church reminds us of this in the Memorare prayer, "... never was it known that anyone who fled to your protection, implored your help or sought your intercession, was left unaided ..." |
| 6. | Whosoever shall recite the Rosary devoutly, applying himself to the consideration of its Sacred Mysteries shall never be conquered by misfortune. God will not chastise him in His justice, he shall not perish by an unprovided death; if he be just he shall remain in the grace of God, and become worthy of Eternal Life. This promise highlights the magnitude of Graces that the Rosary brings to whomever prays it. One will draw down God's Mercy rather than His Justice and will have a final chance to repent (see promise #7). One will not be conquered by misfortune means that Our Lady will obtain for the person sufficient Graces to handle said misfortune (i.e. carry the Crosses allowed by God) without falling into despair. As Sacred Scripture tells us, "For my yoke is sweet and my burden light." (Matthew 11:30) |
| 7. | Whoever shall have a true devotion for the Rosary shall not die without the Sacraments of the Church. This promise highlights the benefits of obtaining the most possible Graces at the hour of death via the Sacraments of Confession, Eucharist, and Extreme Unction (Anointing of the Sick). Being properly disposed while receiving these Sacraments near death ensures one's salvation (although perhaps with a detour through Purgatory) since a final repentance is possible. |
| 8. | Those who are faithful to recite the Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the Light of God and the plenitude of His Graces; at the moment of death they shall participate in the Merits of the Saints in Paradise. Our Lady highlights the great quantity of Graces obtain through praying the Rosary, which assist us during life and at the moment of death. The merits of the Saints are the gift of God's rewards to those persons who responded to His Grace that they obtained during life, and so Our Lady indicates that She will provide a share of that to us at death. With this promise and #7 above, Our Lady is providing the means for the person to have a very holy death. |
| 9. | I shall deliver from purgatory those who have been devoted to the Rosary. Should one require Purgatorial cleansing after death, Our Lady will make a special effort to obtain our release from Purgatory through Her intercession as Advocate. |
| 10. | The faithful children of the Rosary shall merit a high degree of Glory in Heaven. This promise is a logical consequence of promises #3 and #4 since anyone who truly lives a holier life on earth will obtain a higher place in Heaven. The closer one is to God while living on earth, the close that person is to Him also in Heaven. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states "Spiritual progress tends toward ever more union with Christ." (Catechism of the Catholic Church paragraph 2014) |
| 11. | You shall obtain all you ask of me by recitation of the Rosary. This promise emphasizes Our Lady's role as our Advocate and Mediatrix of all Graces. Of course, all requests are subject to God's Most Perfect Will. God will always grant our request if it is beneficial for our soul, and Our Lady will only intercede for us when our request is good for our salvation. (see Lumen Gentium chapter VIII - Our Lady #62) |
| 12. | All those who propagate the Holy Rosary shall be aided by me in their necessities. If one promotes the praying of the Rosary, Our Lady emphasizes Her Maternal care for us by obtaining many Graces (i.e. spiritual necessities) and also material necessities (neither excess nor luxury), all subject to the Will of God of course. |
| 13. | I have obtained from my Divine Son that all the advocates of the Rosary shall have for intercessors the entire Celestial Court during their life and at the hour of death. Since Our Lady is our Advocate, She brings us additional assistance during our life and at our death from all the saints in Heaven (the Communion of Saints). See paragraphs 954 through 959 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. |
| 14. | All who recite the Rosary are my Sons, and brothers of my Only Son Jesus Christ. Since the Rosary is a most excellent prayer focused on Jesus and His Life and activities in salvation history, it brings us closer to Our Lord and Our Lady. Doctrinally, Our Lady is our Mother and Jesus is our Eldest Brother, besides being our God. (see Lumen Gentium chapter VIII - Our Lady #62) |
| 15. | Devotion to my Rosary is a great sign of predestination. Predestination in this context means that, by the sign which is present to a person from the action of devoutly praying the Rosary, God has pre-ordained your salvation. Absolute certainty of salvation can only be truly known if God reveals it to a person because, although we are given sufficient Grace during life, our salvation depends upon our response to said Grace. (See Summa Theologica, Question 23 for a detailed theological explanation). Said another way, if God has guaranteed a person's salvation but has not revealed it to Him, God would want that person to pray the Rosary because of all the benefits and Graces obtained. Therefore the person gets a hint by devotion to the Rosary. This is not to say that praying the Rosary guarantees salvation - by no means. In looking at promises #3 and #4 above, praying the Rosary helps one to live a holy life, which is itself a great sign that a soul is on the road to salvation. (See also paragraphs 381, 488, 600, 2782 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.) In fact, St. Louis de Montfort says even more strongly that "an infallible and unmistakable sign by which we can distinguish a heretic, a man of false doctrine, an enemy of God, from one of God's true friends is that the hardened sinner and heretic show nothing but contempt and indifference to Our Lady..." [True Devotion to Mary, #30] |
Reminder: these promises mean that, by faithfully and devoutly praying the Rosary,
Our Lady will obtain for us the necessary Graces to obtain said promises.
It is still up to each individual soul to respond to those Graces in order to obtain salvation.
Somehow; we Prots have missed those verses...
As regards the oft-quoted Mt. 16:18, note the following Early Church Fathers promise in the profession of faith of Vatican 1:
• Basil of Seleucia, Oratio 25:
'You are Christ, Son of the living God.'...Now Christ called this confession a rock, and he named the one who confessed it 'Peter,' perceiving the appellation which was suitable to the author of this confession. For this is the solemn rock of religion, this the basis of salvation, this the wall of faith and the foundation of truth: 'For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Christ Jesus.' To whom be glory and power forever. — Oratio XXV.4, M.P.G., Vol. 85, Col. 296-297.
• Bede, Matthaei Evangelium Expositio, 3:
You are Peter and on this rock from which you have taken your name, that is, on myself, I will build my Church, upon that perfection of faith which you confessed I will build my Church by whose society of confession should anyone deviate although in himself he seems to do great things he does not belong to the building of my Church...Metaphorically it is said to him on this rock, that is, the Saviour which you confessed, the Church is to be built, who granted participation to the faithful confessor of his name. — 80Homily 23, M.P.L., Vol. 94, Col. 260. Cited by Karlfried Froehlich, Formen, Footnote #204, p. 156 [unable to verify by me].
• Cassiodorus, Psalm 45.5:
'It will not be moved' is said about the Church to which alone that promise has been given: 'You are Peter and upon this rock I shall build my Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.' For the Church cannot be moved because it is known to have been founded on that most solid rock, namely, Christ the Lord. — Expositions in the Psalms, Volume 1; Volume 51, Psalm 45.5, p. 455
• Chrysostom (John) [who affirmed Peter was a rock, but here not the rock in Mt. 16:18]:
Therefore He added this, 'And I say unto thee, Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church; that is, on the faith of his confession. — Chrysostom, Homilies on the Gospel of Saint Matthew, Homily LIIl; Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf110.iii.LII.html)
• Cyril of Alexandria:
When [Peter] wisely and blamelessly confessed his faith to Jesus saying, 'You are Christ, Son of the living God,' Jesus said to divine Peter: 'You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church.' Now by the word 'rock', Jesus indicated, I think, the immoveable faith of the disciple.”. — Cyril Commentary on Isaiah 4.2.
• Origen, Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew (Book XII):
“For a rock is every disciple of Christ of whom those drank who drank of the spiritual rock which followed them, 1 Corinthians 10:4 and upon every such rock is built every word of the church, and the polity in accordance with it; for in each of the perfect, who have the combination of words and deeds and thoughts which fill up the blessedness, is the church built by God.'
“For all bear the surname ‘rock’ who are the imitators of Christ, that is, of the spiritual rock which followed those who are being saved, that they may drink from it the spiritual draught. But these bear the surname of rock just as Christ does. But also as members of Christ deriving their surname from Him they are called Christians, and from the rock, Peters.” — Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew (Book XII), sect. 10,11 ( http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/101612.htm)
• Hilary of Potier, On the Trinity (Book II):
Thus our one immovable foundation, our one blissful rock of faith, is the confession from Peter's mouth, Thou art the Son of the living God. On it we can base an answer to every objection with which perverted ingenuity or embittered treachery may assail the truth."-- (Hilary of Potier, On the Trinity (Book II), para 23; Philip Schaff, editor, The Nicene & Post Nicene Fathers Series 2, Vol 9.
Those involved in Catholic bigotry often cannot see the error of their ways.
Thanks for calling me a LIAR.
Sigh...
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