Posted on 03/21/2017 9:16:13 AM PDT by metmom
Extraneous sources not considered to be inspired.
Amazing how people want to disregard the clear meaning of the texts in the NT that indicate Jesus had brothers and sisters and they were from Joseph and Mary.
It's beginning to sound like the UU is right after all...
Why?
Hasn't COMMON SENSE shown how bogus they are?
What's needed is evidence that CONFIRMS those ages given; then perhaps your ';argument' might gain some reality traction!!!
HMMMmmm...
'A bit' is WAY different sounding than 76 years!!!
Kindly UNparaphase and give a source for your assertion.
There are multiple versions of the ‘Book of Jasher’ and there are many such Jewish texts, such as Midrash Tanchuma or Yalkut Shimoni, etc.
Now, now...
Ol' Joe used a LOT of 'TRUE scripture'!
He merely ran it though the blender of his mind; added a few things he THOUGHT 'god' said to him and VIOLA! He has the RESTORE gospel! Another GOSPEL!!
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Color coding explanation:
Added stuff... Changed stuff... Rearranged stuff... Removed stuff...
*(UNDERLINED stuff is the DISTRACTING reference on every tenth word or so that infuses LDS 'scripture' online.)
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Why are the ages (90 for Joseph, 12-14 for Mary) so striking? If Joseph was 90 then it means you must read another exception to the norm into Scripture, that of a 90 year old quite-mobile man, traveling to Egypt no less, who, as said, is still actively working in construction:
And if Mary is only 12-14, then it is no surprise that she was a virgin, but which does not mean she would remain as one.
Behold, I have received you from the temple of the Lord; and now I leave you in my house, and go away to build my buildings, and I shall come to you. (1:9; http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0847.htm)
Upstream, there is mention of texts that support Yeshua's siblings were in fact from Joseph's previous wife. So there is perhaps possible collaboration of Joseph being a bit older than Mary.
what you've cut and pasted offers nothing toward the above (i.e. the relative ages of Mary and Joseph), other than your attempt to further muddy the waters
It is not I who muddied the waters, as instead what i showed was that it is your stream that is muddy. And which requires recourse to a lying apocryphal source in the light of the fact that, as said, the Holy Spirit said nothing manifest that Joseph and Mary had a novel marriage without sexual cleaving, that she was a perpetual virgin, despite characteristically recording extraordinary aspects among even lesser persons, while stating Christ was the first born, and that Joseph knew not until she bore Him. And despite prophecy about Mary's children, with its apparent fulfillment.
You whole argument for PMV requires extraordinary exceptions to the norm, which Scripture does not record (which itself is an exceptions to the norm), and provides evidence against.
need to spout off.
"Spout off?" You mean (by the grace of God) providing reasoned argumentation and documented evidence contrary to the veracity of your source, and the idolatrous hyper-"hyperdulia" of the Catholic Mary?
It is not I who am example mental deficiency here (though i certainly am no genius) but you, who reasons that the mention in Scripture of a source as providing material means that all they say must be Scripture.
Thus, since Paul quoted from the Cretan poet Epimenides (Titus 1:12) and from the pagan poets Epimenides and Aratus in his speech at Athens (Acts 17:28) then all they said must be considered a wholly inspired Scripture.
As must the Book of the Wars of the Lord, (Numbers 21:14), the Book of Samuel the Seer, the Book of Nathan the Prophet, and the Book of Gad the Seer, (1 Chronicles 29:29) the Acts of Rehoboam and the Chronicles of the Kings of Judah, (1 Kings 14:29) and the book of Enoch. (Jude 1: 14-15) But which Scripture can include true statements from such, this does not mean they are wholly inspired Scripture.
And which includes books that God did not care to preserve, which appears to be the case with the book of Jasher. There is a book called “The Book of Jasher” today, although it is not the same book as mentioned in the Old Testament. It is an eighteenth-century forgery that alleges to be a translation of the “lost” Book of Jasher by Alcuin, an eighth-century English scholar.
There is also a more recent book titled “The Book of Jashar” by science fiction and fantasy writer Benjamin Rosenbaum. This book is a complete work of fiction. Another book by this same name, called by many “Pseudo-Jasher,” while written in Hebrew, is also not the “Book of Jasher” mentioned in Scripture. It is a book of Jewish legends from the creation to the conquest of Canaan under Joshua, but scholars hold that it did not exist before A.D. 1625. In addition, there are several other theological works by Jewish rabbis and scholars called “Sefer ha Yashar,” but none of these claim to be the original Book of Jasher. https://www.gotquestions.org/book-of-Jasher.html
Moreover, the reason why there are "forgotten books" versus established ones is because, apart from conciliar decrees, both men and writings of God were established as being so essentially due to their unique heavenly qualities and attestation, complementary and in conflation with what already has been established. Which leaves others in the dust, except among a few eccentrics. Some contend that Eugene Swedenborg was of God and his writings were Scripture, and others that the books Enoch was, but both fail conflation with and are contrary to Scripture.
and also Paul who writes in Timothy that ALL scripture/texts should be used to understand the Word - paraphrasing.
And Paul never referenced Jasher or other books as Scripture which those who sat in the seat of Moses recognized as being established Scripture, and which he said were "wholly inspired of God," not partially.
Glad you appreciated some material, but still fail to see how making industrious, traveling Joseph out to be a 90 year old man makes you credible.
A faulty oxygen sensor? Call the Climate Change hot line.
Thank God for light, while the basic Catholic rule being that whatever exalts Mary above what is written in Scripture is sacrosanct.
You mean, "For alms doth deliver from death, and shall purge away all sin?" The only way that can be reconciled is in a sames sense that 1 Peter 4:8 (cf. Prv. 10:12) may be: And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.
Which in context can means, as Adam Clarke states,
A loving disposition leads us to pass by the faults of others, to forgive offenses against ourselves, and to excuse and lessen, as far as is consistent with truth, the transgressions of men.
Also, while all sin needs forgiveness, which is only enabled under the rubric of the atonement (which is why sins could be forgiven even before sacrifices were offered), yet we both sin ignorantly and ours sins call for punishment in this life. But God can have compassion of sinners, such as in the light of the intercession of others, and also will in the light of our overall character.
With the merciful thou wilt shew thyself merciful; with an upright man thou wilt shew thyself upright; With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward. (Psalms 18:25-26)
For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment. (James 2:13)
Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. (Matthew 18:32-34)
The relationship btwn sin and sickness and forgiveness and healing (Mk. 2) - which is not always the case - is actually rather deep.
I call you a "genius" and you call me a "mental deficient". A fine example of the real "Christian" fruit you bare, no doubt. ;)
As for the question before us, the relative ages of Mary and Joseph, I provide another text. But first, a short word from someone concerning these additional scriptures/texts:
“…the word apocrypha as it is a word that is greatly misunderstood. It comes from Greek and is formed from the combination of apo (away) and krytein (hide or conceal). Thus, it signifies that which is ‘hidden away’ or ‘concealed’. Apocryphan is the singular form and apocrypha the plural. These words are used to describe the nature of a certain body of ancient religious writings. The word apocrypha, like many other words has undergone a major change in meaning throughout the centuries. With regard to these ancient books, the word apocrypha ORIGINALLY MEANT A TEXT TOO SACRED AND SECRET TO BE IN EVERYONES HANDS. It needed to be hidden away and reserved for the spirituality mature. It was a term of dignity and respect. To those who revered the apocryphal books, they were ‘hidden’ because they contained teachings that were too sacred to be revealed except to the initiated.” From Forgotten Women of God By Diana Webb page xiv
You can find more information about apocryphal books here:
https://discover-the-truth.com/2013/09/30/marriage-of-mary-to-joseph-the-carpenter/
Make sure you review the information concerning the book of Hebrews, or research it online, you might find it interesting.
For another source of evidence of the ages of Mary and Joseph, please examine History of Joseph the Carpenter.
The History of Joseph the Carpenter is one of the texts within the New Testament apocrypha concerned with the period of Jesus' life before he was 12. The most interesting thing about the story is that it is narrated by Jesus himself in a narrative told to his disciples while they were on the Mount of olives.
The story in one concerning the life of Joseph, his stepfather. In it, Jesus agrees with Mary's continued virginity. The text explains the relationship between Jesus and his brothers and sisters by stating that Joseph had four sons named Judas, Justus, James, and Simon and two daughters called Assia and Lydia by a previous marriage.
At age 90, after the death of his first wife, Joseph is given charge of the twelve year old virgin Mary. She lives in his household raising his youngest son James 'the less' along with Judas, until the time she is to be married at age 14.
We must remember that marriage at that time was not like it is today. Marriage had more to do with consummation than living arrangement. Mary may have lived with Joseph at age 12, but they would not have been considered married until they had sex. The exception would be when a man decided to keep a woman as his wife but keep her virginity.
After this basic background, the text proceeds to paraphrase the Gospel of James, stopping at the point of Jesus' birth. The text states that Joseph was miraculously blessed with mental and physical youth, dying at the age of 111.
Joseph's death takes up approximately half of the work. At the conclusion of the text, Jesus affirms that Mary remained a virgin throughout her days by addressing her as "my mother, virgin undefiled." The words “virginity” and “undefiled” in this context must relate to sexual relations and not to the traumas of childbirth.
The Text says "And the holy apostles have preserved this conversation, and have left it written
After this basic background, the text proceeds to paraphrase the Gospel of James, stopping at the point of Jesus' birth. The text states that Joseph was miraculously blessed with mental and physical youth, dying at the age of 111. Joseph's death takes up approximately half of the work. At the conclusion of the text, Jesus affirms that Mary remained a virgin throughout her days by addressing her as "my mother, virgin undefiled." The words “virginity” and “undefiled” in this context must relate to sexual relations and not to the traumas of childbirth. The Text says "And the holy apostles have preserved this conversation, and have left it written
The Encyclopedia of Lost and Rejected Scriptures: The Pseudepigrapha and Apocrypha (Kindle Locations 25540-25551). Fifth Estate. Kindle Edition.
A link to the book "The History of Joseph the Carpenter" can be found here: http://www.masseiana.org/history_of_joseph.htm
You are the one who started the insulting which is seemingly the standard playbook of catholics and liberals when the argument goes against them.
You line of reasoning in this thread thus far substantiates what daniel1212 has written.
I might have been little sarcastic, but calling someone a “mental deficient” is a downright insult. As for the slurs against the Catholics and Jews on this thread, the same applies, and unbecoming true followers of Christ, JMO.
I've yet to see on these threads a non-catholic resort to profanity in their posts. I've seen several of the catholics do so.
It is usually the catholic who resorts to the verbal attack when the argument goes against them.
Whatever, take your bigotry and stuff it. With your comment, I’m done. Maybe some other subject, some other time, and some other thread...Later.
Since I believe there is nothing new under the sun, I wonder where Mormon type doctrines came from? I have heard a few say that Mormon doctrine is somewhat related to Hinduism, in that it seems to believe there is a little bit of the God spark in all people.
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