The Meaning of Grace

I realize that you no longer believe (or if you previously believed) in the Real Presence of Our Lord in the Eucharist. You seem to say that the Body and Blood of Jesus does not give (eternal) life. That is contrary to what Jesus said.

All the various comments and Bible quotes do not change the words or Truth of Jesus.

So I see you as a non believer in the Truth as Jesus stated that has walked away from Jesus and the Catholic Church, like other followers of Jesus.

At some point, I hope you reconsider for your soul, not because I said so, but that God truly wants you to join Him in Heaven.

Perhaps there is something from the Catholic Church that has offended you, but from the Lord’s Prayer, we ask God to give us our daily bread, forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. Forgiveness is important for our well being and our soul.

I don’t know you, but I am truly concerned for you and I know that God loves you.

Peace be with you.

John 15:4
Remain in Me, and I will remain in you. Just as no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me.

John 17:23
I in them and You in Me—that they may be perfectly united, so that the world may know that You sent Me and have loved them just as You have loved Me.

1 John 2:24
As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father.

1 John 3:24
Whoever keeps His commandments remains in God, and God in him. And by this we know that He remains in us: by the Spirit He has given us.

1 John 4:15
If anyone confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

Ah, I'm beginning to see it now. IF you forsake the paganized church ritual it will end your empowerment. If you see GOD as not duplicitous, you could no longer claim to be transmogrifying bread and wine into the flesh, blood, SOUL and DIVINITY of The Christ at your Catholic altar! You would lose your power of the priesthood!

But consider how many souls you will be accounted as having led astray with your 'sacramental striving! All because you have chosen to believe you are authorized to do what some believed Jesus was saying regarding eating Him and drinking His blood! Perhaps, if you reread that passage in John 6 and take a spiritual focus instead of a carnal focus you would comprehend what JESUS explained in verse 63. Perhaps ... but I sadly believe you are so vested in your empowerment that the spiritual is beyond your comprehension.

YOU chose to take the carnal focus, as did the ones who left Him thereafter. Those who remained were given the insight, because they responded to HIM with 'You have the words of life'. If I can find it among my files, I shall post a short essay rendered by Freeper Springfield Reformer, addressing the TRUTH of John 6 ... Jesus told you God is Spirit and must be worshipped in Spirit and Truth, not flesh and blood consumption.

Here is one of a couple of brilliant lessons in what JESUS said in John 6. Try to read it all, for the sake of your immortal soul:

The lesson was posted to address a mischaracterization : "The Protestants, therefore, agreed among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"

Springfield Reformer addressed that with the following:

Not really. If there had been Protestants in the crowd that day, they would not likely ask 'how' as if it were a physics question. The physics approach would be more natural to those who had no experience with a mracle like that which Jesus had just performed, the feeding of the five thousand from the fishes and loaves. Now Jesus says He is the bread from Heaven and you have to eat His flesh and drink his blood and if you are stuck on physics you want to know the mechanism.
But Protestants are well versed with metaphor. Jesus Himself is largely responsible for that. You know the drill. "I am the vine, the good shepherd, the light of the world, the way (path), the door (gate)." So a Protestant hearing Jesus' words would not ask a physics question like 'how.' All the normal language triggers are there to red-flag metaphor, so the Protestant would ask 'What is He teaching? Where is the analogy that helps us understand what He is saying?"
And that analogy is given, in verse 35:
And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. (John 6:35)
The header, the main metaphor, "I am the bread of life." Analogy #1: Coming to Jesus will satisfy your hunger. Analogy #2: Believing in Jesus will satisfy your thirst.
These are very helpful analogies. They are saying the same thing. Coming to Jesus is believing in Jesus is having faith in Jesus, the core message of the Gospel. There is no physics question here.
Do we accept that a person who believes in Jesus will never again get hungry at dinner time? No? Why not? Shouldn't we be consistently literal? By what authority may we disregard the normal signals of metaphor to begin with a literal premise and then switch to metaphor when convenient?
Lets do it again. Does a person who believes in Jesus continue to have physical thirst? We are sure everyone here will Amen that, Catholic and Protestant alike. So obviously, Jesus is NOT referring to satisfying physical thirst. Still, literally He is speaking of thirst, agreed? It is a lesser metaphor used to explain the greater metaphor, Jesus as the Bread of Life. Of course "bread" here is not even literal bread. It is a generic term for the sustenance of life. Literal bread cannot satisfy thirst. So even at that level is it metaphor.
Which is fine, as every informed Protestant knows, because there's nothing the least bit suspicious or unspiritual about seeing metaphor where there really is metaphor. Indeed, for us, given our training and upbringing (I have always been a Baptist), it would seem dishonest to blow past all those clear indicators of metaphor and try to reduce what Jesus is saying to a test of faith over the physics of 'how.' No, for us it will always come back to the core question, Where is your faith centered? In the things you can do to earn your keep with God? Or in who Jesus is and what He has done for you?
Peace,
SR
746 posted on ‎1‎/‎16‎/‎2017‎ ‎9‎:‎41‎:‎35‎ ‎AM by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)

If you, as a Catholic Priest, refuse to get the message, strongly revealed through reading verse 35 of John 6, then you will leap to the carnal explanation because it empowers tyou as 'specially qualified' to serve up bread and wine but transform them into the real FLESH, Blood, SOUL and DIVINITY of The Christ! Your org teaches that blasphemy as truth, refusing to comprehenmd because you lose your powerful position if you follow The Truth of Jesus's / GOD's teaching there.

Not just your immortal soul is in the balance here. The souls of those you lead away from The Spiritual Truth are imperiled as well. THAT is the reason I continue to contend with you over this most crucial catholic error.

When you die where do you go if you are saved?
To be with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8

So when you die and are saved you go directly to Heaven.

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I don't know that Corinthians says you go directly to Heaven. I have always been inclined to believe that there will be a judgement day before we join God in Heaven.

The Scriptures don't make it abundantly clear exactly when these things happen. Saying that when we die we go to God's rest or to be with The Lord doesn't mean that there aren't stops along the way or how long it takes.

You may be right, perhaps it is immediate but I don't there there is enough scriptural proof of that.

I was asked earlier if Christ was God. this is a difficult thing to understand. Although the Nicean Creed certainly makes a stab at it I don't think it is as easy as that. Christ Himself said He prayed to His Father, so in that sense they are not the same but they are both God. When He saw Mary on Easter morning He said He had not yet ascended unto His Father. I doubt that He would talk about ascending to Himself.

When Stephen was being stoned he looked up into Heaven and said he saw Christ Standing at the right hand of His Father.

It is not my intention to start a discussion, certainly not an argument about The Trinity. We probably don't all understand it the same way is all I was saying. I'm not sure how much it matters that I may not have a perfect understanding of the relationship of Christ to God His Father, but I know it is important that I accept Christ as my Savior and to follow Him and do my best to be like Him.

You may recall that when the first Nicean Creed in 325 was written that those who would not accept it were to be banished from the church. So many Bishops departed that Constantine relented and let them come back and hold their positions. It wasn't until 385 when the Creed was made 100% mandatory. After that you may have been burned at the stake or certainly banished if you didn't accept it. Anything short of that was then considered heresy. If the early Church leaders couldn't understand or even accept the Creed's version of The Trinity then I'm not worried about me not getting it exactly right, there are many things much more important.

As I said what is important is to follow Him. I think that if you don't “try” to be like Him that it is unlikely that His grace will be sufficient for you. If you learn late about Christ and accept Him late, the reward is the same as if you worked to emulate Him all your life, but, if you knew about Him and did not follow Him I don't think it will be well with you on judgment day.

Have you read, “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” ... is there a step in between? None I’ve found in Scripture.

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I do feel the presence of The Lord most of the time. I guess I have been taught all my life that there will be a judgment day that comes after Resurrection. I think that because the Holy Ghost is available that we can have the comfort of The Lord even now. I suppose that The Holy Ghost would still be able to comfort us prior to the resurrection but after death, but I do not believe that God, Jesus Christ and The Holy Ghost are all the same, Certainly They are all God but they are not the same. Christ would not pray to Himself. Christ would not ask for the cup to be removed from Him, He even said He would do His Fathers will instead of His own in that prayer.

I have a good friend who has returned to Catholicism after a religious experience in Rome who says that what is wrong with me is that I fail to realize that God is not limited to the 4 dimensions that us mortals live in. He says that in the construct of those dimensions what I say makes sense but that I am limiting the limitless God to what I know and that it is a serious mistake. Perhaps. It is hard to hang everything you hold dear to a conjecture. I try to make sense of The Holy Bible and that tells me the way I believe makes sense. But I realize that it may not make sense to others, especially those who are smarter and have a deeper understanding of dimensions beyond the 4 that I am familiar with.

I read your posting. It does not logically or rationally or spiritually refute the words of Jesus Christ.

If you were with Jesus and he told you to do something for your eternal life, would you actually do it or would you question Him as many Jews did? And then tell Jesus that it is against the law and is repugnant.

Your comments indicate to me that you do not believe the Word of Jesus, and instead substitute your own meaning (or that of others)and still profess your Faith (Faith Alone) and try to use other quotes from the Bible to justify your false faith.

So you would stand next to God and ask a physics question on “how”? So you would question the all powerful and all knowing God on “how” He could do something? Shame on you protestants for having no faith and questioning that God would ask you to commit an evil act.

The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?l 17Because the loaf of bread is one, we, though many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.m 1 Cor 10:16-17

Are you a former Catholic? Or just someone that is part of the churches of the Protestantism Heresy of the 16th century that has many different doctrines yet do not accept specific teachings of Jesus such as the Trinity, the Incarnation, the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the sacrifice of the Mass,the Sacraments, marriage, the pope’s infallibility, etc.

I can sense your anger and frustration, but remember Our Lord’s Prayer that we need to ask for forgiveness and forgive others.

May you find God’s Peace.

Do you REALLY believe I am trying to refute the teaching of My Lord and Savior? I'm contending with you because you are MORE responsible to God than the souls you are misleading.

Your twisted Catholic mind is turning the sane and simple explanation upside down so you can dismiss it! Jesus gave you the key to understanding His teaching, right there in verse 35 of John 6. You refuse to receive it because it will challenge your empowerment in your org.

You are playing the devil's game, twisting what was posted for your enlightenment to read what you want to make a lie. I am not asking 'how'. Your catholic mind has chosen to answer 'how' with a carnal meaning. I am not asking how. I am seeing what Jesus is teaching using HIS chosen metaphor. You reject the metaphor because it refutes your empowerment org. This paragraph identifies what you are and whose agenda you serve; you have piurposely turned the post I gave you over onto its head, so you can smugly reject what God's Spirit is trying to get through your Catholic armor:

So you would stand next to God and ask a physics question on “how”? So you would question the all powerful and all knowing God on “how” He could do something? Shame on you protestants for having no faith and questioning that God would ask you to commit an evil act.

You slimy deceiver. If you had read the offered essay, actually read it, then you are purposely reversing the message. THAT is so Catholic of you ...

Frustration? Perhaps. Anger? ... Only at the devil who holds your soul captive to lead others along his broad road.

It appears that you can not distinguish facts from fiction.

Do a little research and find out where and when a consecrated host has been scientifically examined and determined to have heart muscle. The blood type is AB. (Same as the Shroud of Turin).

I will help you. http://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/eucharistic-miracle-confirmed-in-poland

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html

There are many more, some have been documented in the book “Eucharistic Miracles” 1987 by Joan Carroll Cruz.

I believe (trust) in the words of the Lord over an incorrect analysis by an anonymous poster.

You accuse me of mocking God, even when His message is very clear and has been supported by the early church fathers and experts over the years and one of the key teachings by Jesus Christ.

Now can you dispute scientific evidence?

I see that you are still in the gutter with satan.

I do give you credit for persistence and not willing to change even when logic and reason indicate otherwise.

You still haven’t identified your church doctrine except being anti-Catholic.

I don’t believe that Jesus used a metaphor in telling us that His Body and Blood is necessary for eternal life. You have only offered personal opinion (that doesn’t make sense) that Jesus used a metaphor, when there is substantial evidence and logic that it was not a metaphor.

Have you ever thought seriously that Jesus meant exactly what He said about “His Body and Blood” being necessary for eternal life? Why wouldn’t you want to receive HIS BODY AND BLOOD with His special graces?

You keep saying things that are not true. So you are calling independent scientists liars when it has been verified by many different scientists in different situations and locations. I believe in the word (Truth) of Jesus, the scientific evidence is to help non believers.

I do hope that you find Peace and Understanding of the Truth.

AFTER the Rapture, if you can access the Internet, go back and read what Springfield Reformer offered (post #64) regarding metaphor and clued by verse 35 of John 6.

Have you been born again, born from above? Jesus explained in John 3 that one MUST be born again. When Nicodemus tried to focus on a carnal explanation ('How can a man enter again into his mother's womb after he is old?', what did Jesus then tell him, regarding the brass snake in the desert? ... Now, what did JESUS call the contents of the cup He gave to His disciples on the night He was betrayed? ... He called it the fruit of the vine, not blood, so we know He was using symbols to clue the disciples in as to what He was about to sacrifice on the cross, namely His Body and His blood, to redeem us. Not so we can come to a Catholic altar and eat his flesh and drink his blood. The blood was taken into the Holy of Holies IN HEAVEN, there to cover our sins.

When you focus on the carnal to support your Mass ritual, you must ignore the massive amount of teaching JESUS did using metaphor and symbols.

Try to remember, AFTER the Rapture, when you are left wondering why you are still on Earth, go back to the symbols JESUS used to teach Spiritual things you have neatly set aside so you can be empowered in sacramental rituals. THEN preach the Truth to those you've misled.

Your comment: “Springfield Reformer offered (post #64) regarding metaphor and clued by verse 35 of John 6”

Again, By what authority is he able to interpret the words of God? It is just his personal (and perhaps yours) opinion. You can believe that opinion, but based on all church doctrine that I am aware of there is no authority that has ruled that this is the infallible interpretation of the words of Jesus. It is certainly not the divine teaching of Our Lord.

Your comment about Nicodemus. Jesus did not say that one needs to Be born again through the birth canal. He was very specific and said: “Amen, Amen I say to you no one can see the Kingdom of God without being born from above of water and spirit.” Please read about the Baptism of Jesus by John the Baptist when the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus and God the Father indicated that He was very pleased with His Son. This was the first Sacrament established by Jesus and required for eternal life with God.

Again you used unrelated passages and stories to dispute Jesus words and meaning about His Body and Blood. Yes he used wine (and the Catholic Church uses wine) and He miraculously changes it into the Cup of the New Covenant at the first Mass before He died on the Cross. Catholics have continued the sacrifice of the Mass as He commanded.

So you must be a follower of Darby and Dispensationalism that was started about 200 years ago.

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.b John 3:36

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