Posted on 02/05/2017 3:05:14 PM PST by metmom
Just where do you think “they” got the idea of a Trinity to be able to formally define it? You are simply ignoring the clear Scripture that WAS the basis for the doctrine. If the Apostles didn’t believe that way, then why did they teach about it in their letters to the churches??? You look at some passages and add your OWN theory but you ignore way too much that disproves it.
There is not clear scripture to support a trinity. That is why it took over 300 years for traditional Christianity to accept it. Scripture is clear that biblical figures believed in a God that composed of the Lord Jesus and his Father. John 1:1-2 is clear about this. ALL glimpses of God's throne in heaven in scripture do NOT show, mention or hint of another entity called "the holy spirit" comprising the Godhead.
Mormons and Roodians have parsed that to a level of unbelief. We may be seeing a couple of those adherents here ...
How did JESUS define God The Father Almighty? ... He is Spirit and must be worshipped in Spirit and Truth. And Who is The Truth, by HIS own words? ... Might want to rethink your assertion ...
The Holy Spirit has been mentioned even in the OT.
If the Holy Spirit is NOT God, then what is he/it?
Well my assertion is that no biblical figures recognized the concept of a trinity. That's not just an assertion but it's a fact. The historical facts clearly show that the trinity theory took more then 300 years to formulate and become an official part of traditional Christianity.
I would suggest that trinitarians are looking at bible scriptures based on 300 plus years of post biblical teachings and reading those beliefs into scripture.
What it's NOT is a separate entity in triune Godhead. The bible is very clear on that. Most of the time though it's God's influence on the creation. It's when God interacts with creation.
For example an ant probably can't conceive of how big and vast a person I am. It can't possibly know how I'm constructed. It can't know what kind of life I lead. It has no clue about human civilization or potential.
BUT if I poke that ant with my finger and throw it off course she's going to feel it and her path will be altered. And, not being able to comprehend what made her change course, she's going to say "God made me change course."
And maybe that ant talks to others ants and some say "Hey..something similar happened to me". So now they have a concept of God. But their interaction IS with God...NOT with a separate person OTHER then God.
That's how people in the bible thought of the spirit of God. They knew they couldn't comprehend the vastness of God but they knew that God had interaction and influence with them. They called that "spirit" because it's beyond our capability to conceptualize it.
But again scripture clearly teaches this. Scripture screams "two" in the Godhead.
quote-But again scripture clearly teaches this. Scripture screams “two” in the Godhead.
Douglas, there are patterns of ‘3’ in the Scriptures. Even what can be described as 3 parts of one whole(which is essentially what the trinity is)..
Zechariah 13:8 describes one of them:
1st part and 2nd part cut off and die, third left in and refined through fire.
2 of those parts are alike(cut off) and the 3rd is distinctly different (left in)
A man, it has been describe, as having ‘3’ parts:
Spirit and Soul, Body...
2 of those are ‘alike’. but one is distinctly different from the other two(body)
The Temple has ‘3’ parts-
Holy of Holies and Holy Place, and the Outer Court..
2 of those are alike. but one is distnctly different from the other two.(Outer Court)
3 parts of the ‘whole temple’..
One could argue that in a pattern of Father,Son and Holy Spirit it may look more like:
Father and Son , the Holy Spirit.
2 of those are alike (as human fathers and sons can witness to us) but the 3rd part is distnctly different.
3 parts of the same ‘whole’.
With the 3rd part in each or the above examples, being ‘different’ from the first two..
so instead of 1-2-3 it would more like 1-2, 3
He may be declaring ‘trinity’ to us in patterns that we can’t hear or see because we are deaf and blind to it.
From the very beginning it's two in the Godhead:
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
Two. Not a 3rd called "holy spirit". Look at the creation of man:
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over the whole earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth on the earth. Gen 1:27 And God created Man in his image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Created in his image...two.
Jesus Christ himself:
Joh_10:30 I and My Father are one."
Joh 17:21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
Joh 17:22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
Who is "one"? The father and son according to Jesus. The holy spirit isn't a separate person in the Godhead.
Dan_7:13 "I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him.
Son of Man and ancient of days...later father and son...but two.
Every glimpse of the heavenly realm in scripture shows many things...angels, the father and son. Never a separate entity called "the holy spirit".
Nearly every book in the new testament flat out says or strongly implies that God is father and son. All of Paul's greetings in each of his letters:
1Co_1:3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
The holy spirit is NOT equated with them. It's not elevated as a separate person in this binary Godhead.
I could list hundreds of scriptures that show the father and son being elevated in "personhood"...but never is the holy spirit elevated similarly.
And again I don't want to beat a dead horse but the trinity doctrine was DEVELOPED over at least 300 years. It's NOT in the bible and nobody in the bible taught it.
Leaving the bible aside you can look at the design of people...binary. Two eyes. Two legs. Two ears. Two eyes. Two nostrils. Two brain halves. Two kidneys. Two lungs etc etc etc.
bttt for an always interesting discussion
Verses please.
If the Bible is so clear on it, please cite your references to support your claim.
You know that, eh?
Did they tell you that?
Post 88 among others. Also the whole bible. :-)
It's evident from their writings and by virtue of the fact that the trinity was not a thing until centuries after Christ died.
I keep saying the same thing and nobody disagrees that the trinity is an evolved doctrine that took centuries to finalize. Do you believe that?
Post 88 is NOT Scripture verses.
You have yet to prove that your concept of a God of TWO persons is correct.
You have yet to show what the Holy Spirit is if not God?
The Holy Spirit is referred to with personal pronouns of *He*. If not God then what spirit?
And an answer of *the whole Bible* is not an answer at all.
Are you a Mormon?
He will ignore all the verses that have already been given to him in this thread that show Jesus as well as the Apostles taught about the Holy Spirit. Scripture that we also know "holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit", as Peter taught (II Peter 1:21) and as Paul affirmed:
Romans 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
What you can't seem to understand is that the Holy Trinity WAS believed by the early Christians even though the term "Trinity" may not have been strictly used and not formalized in a creed form until the Nicean Council. Here are but a few passages from some of the pre-Nicean fathers:
We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the mystery which lies therein. (Justin Martyr—First Apology 13:5–6)
For this cause, yea and for all things, I praise Thee, I bless Thee, I glorify Thee, through the eternal and heavenly High-priest, Jesus Christ, Thy beloved Son, through whom with Him and the Holy Spirit be glory both now [and ever] and for the ages to come. Amen. —Martyrdom of Polycarp 14:3
And at the same time the mystery of the oikonomia is safeguarded, for the unity is distributed in a Trinity. Placed in order, the three are the Father, Son, and Spirit. They are three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in being, but in form; not in power, but in kind; of one being, however, and one condition and one power, because he is one God of whom degrees and forms and kinds are taken into account in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Tertullian—Against Praxeas 2
Sorry...that was a typo...post 89 and others I've already posted on the thread.
You have yet to prove that your concept of a God of TWO persons is correct.
Show me a scripture that shows a description of the Godhead in heaven. Show me where there is an entity called "the holy spirit" in heaven reigning with the father and the Christ. On the throne. I'll show you (and have shown you in multiple passages) that the Godhead as pictured in the bible is "two".
The Holy Spirit is referred to with personal pronouns of *He*. If not God then what spirit?
Read post 87. My argument isn't that there isn't a holy spirit. There clearly is. My argument is that it's another "person" in the Godhead in heaven. It's not. Scripture clearly shows the Godhead multiple times (John 1:1-2 for example) and never is there a picture of an entity called "the holy spirit" in heaven.
As far as personal pronouns go I would suggest that you (or anyone else interested) read this: Holy Spirit He Him
It quite nicely explains the grammatical usage of certain terms in scripture that refer to the holy spirit.
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