Posted on 02/04/2017 5:15:51 PM PST by SeekAndFind
Do Old Testament verses regarding Israel apply today to the State of Israel, Jews around the world, or the Church?
Many Christians believe that God's words to Abraham in Genesis 12:3, where after He instructs him to leave his homeland He says "I will bless those who bless you, and curse those who curse you," as well as other verses regarding Israel, are still in effect today. Favorable foreign policy toward modern Israel, then, is seen as a doorway to blessings from God.
But for others a theological quandary exists as to just who and what constitutes "Israel" and what "blessing Israel" looks like. Such questions are rising in light of the Barack Obama administration facilitating a U.N. resolution against Israel on Dec. 23 and a new Donald Trump administration appearing to back away from its campaign promise to relocate the American embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.
Richard Land, president of Southern Evangelical Seminary, told The Christian Post in a Jan. 5 interview that he believes God made specific promises to the Jews as a people that he did not make to the Gentiles. Some of those promises include the land of Canaan "forever," his words to Abraham in Genesis 12:3, and that the Messiah will come from the lineage of Abraham.
"[Israel] is ethnic, the seed of Abraham. It is literally the seed of Abraham," Land said. "If you're Jewish, you are part of the promise."
"Does that involve the state of Israel? Not explicitly," he added. "It involves the Jews around the world, all of them."
Land is among those who, like the Christian Zionist scholars CP interviewed on Dec. 31, regards the regathering of millions of Jews to their historic homeland during the last half of the twentieth century and first part of the twentieth century as a fulfillment of biblical prophecy.
Paul Copan, professor of philosophy at Palm Beach Atlantic University, takes a different view.
"When we understand who the people of God are in the New Testament, it does become clear that God's purposes for Israel for ethnic Jews are intermingled with his purposes for the Gentiles as well," Copan told CP in a mid-January phone interview.
"And so that in the fulfillment of the gospel [regarding] the Gentiles, it's the promise of Abraham that comes to fruition through whom all the nations of the earth will be blessed," he said.
In Romans 2 Paul talks about who a true Israelite is, which is "one who has the Spirit of God, they have been circumcised of heart," he said. "We also read in Romans chapter 9 verse 6 that Paul says not all Israel are those who are descended from Israel."
"The modern state of Israel may be in a sense a residual blessing that comes but nothing in terms of theology from Scripture to talk about this being predicted," he said, adding that he does not believe the nation-state of Israel born in 1948 fulfilled biblical prophecy.
When judgement fell on Jerusalem in AD 70, Copan thinks that marked the "decisive end" of national Israel as the people of God.
As to whether or not a potential relocation of the American embassy constitutes a "blessing," Land offered that "we have to defer to the Jews to tell us what they think blesses them and what they think doesn't bless them. It is not for us to tell the Jews what blesses them and what doesn't bless them."
‘Jew’ is an unofficial term. The Jewish legal term is ‘ben/bat yisrael’ (son/daughter of Israel). In this case, Israel is the name of Jacob and his descendants.
Can’t agree with you more! Thanks for this post.
This point really demonstrates the absurdity of the "ethnic" Jew sacred cow, as the scripture clearly cuts off those Jews from the body who are not circumcised and do not keep the law. In fact, the scripture--from an OT perspective alone--even makes clear that circumcision is nothing if the circumcision is not "of the heart" and the spirit, thus, as Paul says, "not all Israel is Israel". So all these people who constantly hype on a Jewish bloodline contradict the very spirit of the Old Testament, for being Jewish does not even make an uncircumcised baby "Jewish", let alone an adult infidel.
Add in the clear teachings of the New Testament, which makes the Church is the "Israel of God," and there is left nothing to this Evangelical Cult of Jewishness to stand on.
Supporting Israel, etc., for secular, political reasons is one thing. But the fantasy that the Jews of today are more than just any other racial group is simply offensive to the Gospel, especially when you get into the John Hagee extremes and even claim that Jews don't need the Gospel at all!
The words of Jesus contradict that claim.
"Jesus saith to them: Have you never read in the Scriptures: The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner? By the Lord this has been done; and it is wonderful in our eyes. Therefore I say to you, that the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and shall be given to a nation yielding the fruits thereof." (Mt 21:42-43)
"Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)
It does not claim that Jews are not really Jews.
Neither the scholar quoted in the article nor posters to this thread have made the assertion that "Jews are not really Jews".
Is Today's State of Israel the Same as Biblical Israel? Scholars Weigh In
Short answer, no.
The ancient Israelite monarchical kingdom(s) achieved its typological purpose, and will not be back.
After the exile to Babylon, the people lived "many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or pillar, without ephod or household gods. " until the coming of the Messiah.
I’ve been called “anti-Semitic” right here on FreeRepublic so many times that the term has lost all meaning to me. It’s actually very liberating and refreshing.
Been there, done that, got the medal. I've been hissed at by the best of them.
The majority of the House of Israel do not know who they are...That was part of their punishment..God had Jeremiah pen That God ‘divorced’ the House of Israel because of her whoredoms. God knows who and where they were dispersed.. They in majority are ignorant, as promised by God...
Abraham was promised that his seed would number as the sands of the sea and the stars in heaven. The ten tribes will not fit into the House of Judah, Benjamin, and part of Levi.
Me three!
Awesome — good for you. LOL!
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No, Jew is not applicable to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, only to ethnic House of Judah.
And of course it is an arbitrary “un official” monikker, as are most other social terms.
“Christians,” (followers of the crafted lies of Constantine and Eusebius) are inclined to classify all of the sons of Jacob as ‘Jews,’ and dismiss them as lost. (pot& kettle contest)
I recognize that you are looking at this through a different window than I am. :o)
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Save your fake news.
For people today, Torah has nothing whatsoever to do with circumcision.
Circumcision was only for those in the land anyway.
Spiritual “Israel,” i.e. the bride of Yeshua, will ultimately show itself to be at least a billion, maybe more. (Study the prophecy a little more carefully; Israel was prophesied to be the dominant people of the Earth in our time)
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You can think whatever you wish, but please realize that you are not even a player in the spiritual scheme of things.
Your lot will be cast with those that will be left behind for the 10 days of the bowl judgements.
Those that have actively cast themselves against the Gospel of the Kingdom (Torah) will not survive those 10 days. That is specifically what the Revelation promises.
You have little time to think about it.
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No wonder the country has gone crazy with transgenderism with the confusion as to whether one is Jew or Gentile, bond or free, male or female, ...
Of course they have, since that's the only way you can pretend Jews today don't inherit God's Biblical promises to them.
As for your quotations from Matthew & John, they speak to something entirely different, and do not revoke God's original promises to His Jewish people, imho.
In post #68 you said, “Yes, but Israel includes all who keep Torah, not just genetic Israel, so it becomes a much larger body of believers, possibly billions today.
But those that call themselves Christian, yet reject Torah, are not a part thereof.”
I was simply reminding you in my post #75 about what the term “keep Torah” means. I mentioned only three things: keeping kosher, keeping the Sabbath and circumcision. Every single one of those things, plus a great deal more, is involved in keeping Torah. For your information, circumcision is not for just the circumstances where a Jew is born in the land of Israel. It is a covenant for all time between G-d and the Jews. Even the most non-observant of Jews in the furthest reaches of the world have kept circumcision throughout the ages, even under conditions of extreme oppression. Oh, and by the way, it is most certainly not “fake news.” The only fake news is the claim that it no longer applies.
Now, I might add that all of the requirements of the Torah, except those mentioned in the chapter dealing with Noah’s Flood, apply to Jews alone. Those mentioned with relation to the Flood apply to all people (and even applied to the ancestors of those who would become Jews until the time of Abraham). They are commonly known as the Noahide Laws, and they were reiterated at Mount Sinai so as to positively indicate that they still applied to all of those people who did not accept Judaism. There are seven of them, which I will not a detail here, but they are a great deal more intricate and sophisticated than seven brief statements regarding acceptable behavior. If anyone other than a Jew abides by the Noahide Laws, they have earned themselves a place in “the World to Come,” which is more commonly known in the non-Jewish world as Heaven. In other words, Judaism does not pretend to be an exclusive religion like Islam and Christianity, both of which claim that the only path to Heaven is through a belief in their respective saviors. This is why it is supposed to be, and is in practice in the Orthodox Jewish world, very difficult to convert to Judaism. It entails many more obligations, and a higher set of ethical standards, than being a non-Jew. In Judaism, there is no condemnation of a person because they choose to stay in the (non-Jewish) religion of their family, just a hope that every person of whatever faith will act in a civil and ethical manner toward their fellow human beings and animals, and respect the role of G-d in Creation and our lives. Here is an explanation of the Noahide Laws: http://www.chabad.org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/62221/jewish/Universal-Morality.htm
As to your assertion that there are literally billions of people who qualify for Heaven now, I would make the argument that the potential is most certainly there for everyone, and that it would likely be easier for someone who believed in some monotheistic religion other than Judaism to so qualify. However, the seven Noahide Laws seem to be pretty clear (to me) that only G-d is to be acknowledged as the Creator of the heavens and earth, and to be worshipped. That would, IMHO, necessarily exclude anyone from full conformity with the Noahide Laws if they worship any other being, or believe that any other being besides G-d Himself has Divine attributes. I am very well aware that this would also necessarily invoke extraordinairily strong disagreement from any believing Christian. Such is the exact reason why Jews and Christians are adherents of separate religions, because on this issue there is a disagreement that literally cannot be resolved - not until the End Times, anyway. Please be aware that I say these things either as a statement of facts, or of my sincere beliefs. I do not, repeat do not, say them for the purpose of insulting anyone. However, Jews, and particularly our sages over the long history of the Jewish people, have the right and obligation to interpret our own scriptures, and we bow before no one in our rock-solid belief that we know our own scriptures better than those of other religions. I am personally not of the belief that my very, very distant cousin, the carpenter, was in any way more Divine than any other human being who has existed or ever will exist. Again, no insult intended, this is merely a statement of my beliefs, which I share with all authentic Jews of the present time and of all times.
Your interpretation of “who is a Jew” is, to say the least, fubar. Given what I have observed of your theology regarding Jews over the course of years, I will not even dignify your comments with a cogent response. You can take your warped beliefs of a religion that is supersedes Judaism and stick them where the sun don’t shine.
If you had any religious knowledge, you would understand that a Covenant is a holy contract. G-d makes a Covenant with a person or with a people, and G-d is not a mere human that He would lie. When G-d makes a Covenant, it is forever. What you call the Old Testament makes it abundantly clear that G-d has a Covenant with the Jewish people, and nothing written by mere humans, no matter how revered by billions of people, can overcome that simple fact. The fact that all Jews, being human beings, commit sins against His word, does not revoke that Covenant. God put no such conditions on the Covenant, and to put those conditions in there is nothing short of blasphemy. That individual Jews, or even the entire Jewish Nation, have been, can presently, and will in the future, be punished for such violations is not a fact that dissolves God’s covenant with the nation of Israel.
Those quotes of yours from your holy books are both an addition to, and a change of, the Hebrew Bible. Since G-d Himself stated that not one letter shall be added or removed from his Torah, it would seem quite clear to me that the passages you have quoted from your books of worship are invalid.
By the way, didn’t my cousin the carpenter, the one you worship as a diety, state somewhere in your own holy books that not one jot or tittle of the Bible can be changed? That would mean that either he violated his own stated command, or that his followers (who drafted your holy books), misquoted him or just made those passages up out of whole cloth. Either way, that is a rather inconvenient conclusion for you.
That's literally impossible since maybe less than a year ago, at tops a year and a half, I held to the exact opposite position. On top of that, the number of times I've dealt with the topic can probably counted on one hand. So you're claiming you've been watching my posts on the topic for "years"? Come on now, this is just a desperate smear and this is your first time ever engaging with me on any thread--ever.
Can't say I'm surprised though, as this seems to be the general method opponents to covenant theology use!
When G-d makes a Covenant, it is forever.
Indeed, God made a covenant with Abraham, and with His seed. Who is Abraham's seed?
Gal_3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Ohhhhhhh!
So what does that mean for Christians, who are joined to Christ?
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
We're Abraham's seed!? The promise is therefore made to us!? Wow, what an antisemite God is, giving that promise unto Gentiles, those dogs!
Speaking of not adding one jot or tittle, a Jew cannot even piss without having a Rabbi regulate it:
Gittin 70a. On coming from a privy (toilet) a man should not have sexual intercourse till he has waited long enough to walk half a mile, because the demon of the privy is with him for that time; if he does, his children will be epileptic."
Forgive me if I don't bend the knee to the superior interpretative skills of these fools!
Then there's the stuff about eating mud cakes from around a toilet, or putting the ashes of a cremated cat in your eye, or that time the Rabbis had an argument and overruled the judgment of God!
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