Posted on 02/04/2017 5:15:51 PM PST by SeekAndFind
Do Old Testament verses regarding Israel apply today to the State of Israel, Jews around the world, or the Church?
Many Christians believe that God's words to Abraham in Genesis 12:3, where after He instructs him to leave his homeland He says "I will bless those who bless you, and curse those who curse you," as well as other verses regarding Israel, are still in effect today. Favorable foreign policy toward modern Israel, then, is seen as a doorway to blessings from God.
But for others a theological quandary exists as to just who and what constitutes "Israel" and what "blessing Israel" looks like. Such questions are rising in light of the Barack Obama administration facilitating a U.N. resolution against Israel on Dec. 23 and a new Donald Trump administration appearing to back away from its campaign promise to relocate the American embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.
Richard Land, president of Southern Evangelical Seminary, told The Christian Post in a Jan. 5 interview that he believes God made specific promises to the Jews as a people that he did not make to the Gentiles. Some of those promises include the land of Canaan "forever," his words to Abraham in Genesis 12:3, and that the Messiah will come from the lineage of Abraham.
"[Israel] is ethnic, the seed of Abraham. It is literally the seed of Abraham," Land said. "If you're Jewish, you are part of the promise."
"Does that involve the state of Israel? Not explicitly," he added. "It involves the Jews around the world, all of them."
Land is among those who, like the Christian Zionist scholars CP interviewed on Dec. 31, regards the regathering of millions of Jews to their historic homeland during the last half of the twentieth century and first part of the twentieth century as a fulfillment of biblical prophecy.
Paul Copan, professor of philosophy at Palm Beach Atlantic University, takes a different view.
"When we understand who the people of God are in the New Testament, it does become clear that God's purposes for Israel for ethnic Jews are intermingled with his purposes for the Gentiles as well," Copan told CP in a mid-January phone interview.
"And so that in the fulfillment of the gospel [regarding] the Gentiles, it's the promise of Abraham that comes to fruition through whom all the nations of the earth will be blessed," he said.
In Romans 2 Paul talks about who a true Israelite is, which is "one who has the Spirit of God, they have been circumcised of heart," he said. "We also read in Romans chapter 9 verse 6 that Paul says not all Israel are those who are descended from Israel."
"The modern state of Israel may be in a sense a residual blessing that comes but nothing in terms of theology from Scripture to talk about this being predicted," he said, adding that he does not believe the nation-state of Israel born in 1948 fulfilled biblical prophecy.
When judgement fell on Jerusalem in AD 70, Copan thinks that marked the "decisive end" of national Israel as the people of God.
As to whether or not a potential relocation of the American embassy constitutes a "blessing," Land offered that "we have to defer to the Jews to tell us what they think blesses them and what they think doesn't bless them. It is not for us to tell the Jews what blesses them and what doesn't bless them."
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No you do not understand Torah.
The circumcision was only for those in the land before the perfect sacrifice was complete.
When Messiach was crucified, that was the end of circumcision.
After that there was no Hebrew, and no Gentile in the Kingdom of Yehova. WE are now under the renewed covenant, where circumcision is of the heart.
Anyway, there are very few that have not been circumcised on the 8th day. Its been standard practice in Europe, and in all the British colonies.
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Rabbis “over-rule” Yehova habitually.
Just being called Rabbi is over-ruling him.
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There is no doubt that there were twelve tribes of Israel, all descended from their common father Jacob / Israel. It is also beyond dispute that roughly twenty-six hundred years ago, 10 of those tribes were taken captive and dispersed across a very wide area. It is also quite beyond dispute that the Hebrew Bible states that in the End Times, when the Messiah shall come, that the ten tribes will be reunited with their brethren.
However, those 10 tribes will be brought back to the faith of their fathers, what is commonly called Judaism, by the Messiah. Thus, they will be truly, spiritually and physically, reunited with their brethren. By the way, the descendants of Judah did not invent their religion, and it is not appreciably different from what their ancestors practiced during the time when the First Temple stood. Moses or David or Solomon or any of the prophets could walk into any Orthodox synagogue anywhere in the world today and feel quite at home with the prayer service.
While the more proper name that the descendants of Jacob will be called at that time will be the House of Israel, or the House of Jacob, the plain and simple fact is that their religion will be indistinguishable from Judaism (except that certain mysteries and certain areas of dispute that have arisen will be resolved by the Messiah). The tribe of Judah, principally, has maintained faith with both their fathers and with G-d, and kept our religion intact for the last twenty six hundred years.
As an aside, it is my very sincere belief that a pretty large number of the people comprising the 10 exiled tribes made their way as refugees to the Kingdom of Judah, and that a great number of the people who are today called Jews are, in fact, descendants of the other 10 tribes. That a great number, a majority, of the people comprising the ten tribes were exiled is beyond question, but that does not contradict my belief. My belief is based upon a few simple facts and some simple logic, which is that these people all spoke the same language, they all shared the same heritage up until a fairly short time before the Babylonian Conquest, and that they were living in neighboring states. On top of that, many who belonged to the ten tribes wanted a reconciliation with their brethren, and shared beliefs with them. After all, what nation has ever held a unanimous belief (especially one that only seems to benefit the ruling class)? None of my speculation on this matter, however, contradicts the assertion in the Bible that the ten tribes will be reunited with the tribes of Judah and Benjamin.
By the way, it is not really 10 full tribes, as significant numbers of people from the tribe of Levi, who were helpers of the Priestly class, are part of the Jewish people. Further, the Priestly class itself, the male descendants of the first High Priest, Aaron, who was himself a Levy, also survive as Jews.
Moschiach is to bring peace for 1,000 years (among other things). Seen 1,000 years of peace lately? No...because it hasn’t happened yet, because the Messiah hasn’t come...YET. Besides, there will STILL be circumcision after Moschiach comes. The Law doesn’t get suspended at that point.
If you wish to find out more about why I believe the way I do, and why I believe that you are wrong, take a look at the following website (which is art of a larger website): https://outreachjudaism.org/the-christian-messiah/
I commend and am grateful for your friendship toward Jews, but I am afraid that we shall simply have to agree to disagree. Peace to you.
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You’re posting nonsense.
He came to suffer and die, as prophesied by Isaiah.
He was our Passover Lamb, born in the sheepfold of the Passover lambs.
Mission accomplished.
He will return for his Bride at the day of Trumpets.
We will return with him to conquer on the day of Tabernacles, 15 days later.
His reign will be a 1000 year demonstration of the total depravity of man.
Then the Earth and Heavens will depart from his face for there will be no place found for them.
Then those that were not taken to the wedding supper will be judged according to their deeds.
I am afraid that you have a very thorough misunderstanding of the authority of rabbis and other Sages. Take a look at the following verses from the book of Deuteronomy (#11, specifically, but the preceding verses are necessary for a full understanding:
“8 If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, even matters of controversy within thy gates; then shalt thou arise, and get thee up unto the place which HaShem thy G-d shall choose.
9 And thou shall come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days; and thou shalt inquire; and they shall declare unto thee the sentence of judgment.
10 And thou shalt do according to the tenor of the sentence, which they shall declare unto thee from that place which HaShem shall choose; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they shall teach thee.
11 According to the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do; thou shalt not turn aside from the sentence which they shall declare unto thee, to the right hand, nor to the left.”
With all due respect to you and the obvious sincerity of your beliefs, I’m not posting nonsense. The simple fact of the matter is that an authentic Jew will not acknowledge or believe in the divinity of Jesus. To us, he was simply another human being. He did not have the qualifications to be the Messiah, nor did he do the deeds required to actually be the Messiah. That was the view of Jews 2,000 years ago, and no evidence to the contrary has ever been presented.
As I said before, we shall simply have to agree to disagree. Neither of us can change the mind of the other. I wish you and your family good health, prosperity, peace and salvation.
Bump
No. "For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled." (Matthew 5:18) "Law" refers to the moral precepts, i.e. the Commandments (obviously still in effect).
Well, FYI, “jots and tittles” are very small symbols added to the Hebrew letters that make up the 5 Books of Moses. I am most certainly no expert, but they give deeper meaning to the words that we see on the surface. Additionally, “the Law” - when spoken in the context of Jewish Law (and that’s what he was referring to) - deals with the actual laws, not merely moral precepts.
So I come back to the fact that the entire Christian Bible is an attempted addition to the 5 Books of Moses, which is forbidden under Jewish Law - and was recognized by Jesus as being such.
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An “authentic Jew” is a deluded fool that follows the Pharisees that violate Torah by their very existence.
“Jesus” doesn’t even exist, it is the transliteration of the acronym of a Rabbinic curse against the son of Yehova.
Yeshua is his name.
If you choose to be among the lost, so be it, but your attempt to confuse others I will not tolerate.
Judaism is man made ignorance. It is a denial of the Faith of Moses, and embrace of ignorance.
Yeshua and his apostles preached Torah as it was delivered at Sinai, to the complete chagrin of the self promoting Pharisees, whom Yeshua denounced for their alterations of his Father’s Torah.
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The Pharisees are not judges, nor Cohenim.
They are self appointed contra scriptural destroyers.
They are the very ones that Yehova demanded be put out of the gates and stoned to death for their apostasy.
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Additionally, “the Law” - when spoken in the context of Jewish Law (and that’s what he was referring to) - deals with the actual laws, not merely moral precepts. So I come back to the fact that the entire Christian Bible is an attempted addition to the 5 Books of Moses, which is forbidden under Jewish Law
FYI, Jesus was referencing and elevating the Ten Commandments [not the teachings of the scribes and Pharisees (fathers of modern Judaism) of whom He said, "For I tell you, that unless your justice abound more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:20)]
Jeremiah 8:8: "How do you say: We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us? Indeed the lying pen of the scribes hath wrought falsehood".
It goes without saying that unbelieving Jews do not inherit God's promises, as the scripture clearly teaches. But believing Jews are not cut off, and those that convert are easily reattached to the vine. It's just that the church, the body, includes both believing Jews and Gentiles.
It's just people want to divide the promises, to make Jews some special breed of human being, when the "Chosen" nation is explicitly described as consisting of all Elect believers.
Why would God return you the Jews to the old covenant which they break anyway?:
"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:" (Jer 31:31-32)
Let's be real here. The Temple was utterly destroyed on the same day, in the same month, as it was first destroyed under the Babylonians, in 70AD, and with it perished more than a million Jews, and many more were driven into mass poverty, slavery, and persecution for centuries, such that they were driven out of pretty much every European country--perhaps sometimes more than once, over and over again. And today, Israel has a secular socialist state with gay parades, and the Temple mount is still owned and controlled and stamped down upon by Gentiles, none of whom you can ultimately get rid of despite your best efforts.
And despite all of this, for 2000 years, you have not heard a single word from God. There have been no visions. No prophets. Your greatest rabbis have predicted and failed in their predictions about the coming of the Messiah. And the scripture offers you only silence, while your Rabbis gloat about Christ boiling in eternal crap for all eternity, and about how wonderful it will be when the Gentiles all get exterminated.
Somewhere in all of this should have been a clue that the true religion of the Bible is Christianity, and that there is no hope to be found in these bearded, silly Rabbis and their superstitious and retarded doctrines.
Heheheheheh! Read the Talmud and you will hate that dumb religion too. That said, it has nothing to do with hatred against "the Jewish people," though every criticism against the religion is certainly interpreted that way, without fail!
It's a cynical ploy, which is now being aggressively utilized by its purveyors who are attempting to deprive American citizens of our First Amendment rights. Criticism of Israeli policies conflated with "hate speech". Passed by Senate and about to be voted on in House.
Constitutionally Dubious 'Anti-Semitism Awareness Act' Unanimously Passed by Senate
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