Posted on 02/02/2017 8:58:27 AM PST by Morgana
A Catholic nun in Spain has caused outrage after she suggested that the Virgin Mary may not have been a virgin after all. The controversial Dominican nun invited the ire of the Catholic Church who responded to her statements in anger.
Sister Lucia Caram was speaking on a talk show over the weekend when she let slip her belief that contradicts one of the key pillars of her faith.
“I think that Mary was in love with Joseph and that they were a normal couple, and the normal thing is to have sex,” Caram told Risto Mejideon during Sunday’s Chester in Love programme.
According to Roman Catholic faith, the Virgin Mary is believed to have become pregnant with Jesus, the son of God, by immaculate conception.
"It’s hard to believe and to take in. We’ve stuck with rules that we have invented without reaching the true message,” she added.
(Excerpt) Read more at rt.com ...
Yeah, but Catholic Caucus rules on FR are pretty much like Free Speech rules at Berkley.
So many people use bible-speak but don’t actually believe the bible.
The Greek word "adelphos" is used in Mark 1:16 and 1:19 to describe the pairs of brothers selected as Jesus' disciples.
In Mark 6, when Jesus went to "his own country" (i.e., where he grew up) and spoke to his own townspeople, they remarked in Mark 6:3 "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us?"
That same Greek word adelphos is used here... and "adelphē" is used to describe his sisters, for that matter.
Of all people, this group knew Jesus had brothers and sisters... they where certainly not talking about 'spiritual' relatives... it was obviously actual relatives, and the context makes it crystal clear. I don't know how you can possibly read it any other way... Catholic sensibilities notwithstanding.
In the fourth century the Council of Nicea decided what was Christian belief and what was heresy. This woman is a heretic.
Yes while the Bible tells us that Joseph never “knew her” until after the birth of Jesus, it never says that they never had sex...
sex between married couples was never a sin ...God encouraged people to “multiple” ...
sex was SANCTIFIED by the marriage customs of the Jews following God’s instructions..
The word UNTIL has meaning...(also “till”)
Matthew 1:25
The Catholic Bibles
New Jerusalem Bible
And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS. Matthew 1:25,
Vulgate Bible
et non cognoscebat eam donec peperit filium suum primogenitum et vocavit nomen eius Iesum
And he knew her not till she brought forth her first born son: and he called his name Jesus.
The Protestant Bibles
New International Version
But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.
New Living Translation
But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus.
English Standard Version
but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.
Berean Study Bible
But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a Son. And he gave Him the name Jesus.
Berean Literal Bible
But he did not know her until she had brought forth a Son, and he called His name Jesus.
New American Standard Bible
but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.
King James Bible
And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
but did not know her intimately until she gave birth to a son. And he named Him Jesus.
International Standard Version
He did not have marital relations with her until she had given birth to a son; and he named him Jesus.
NET Bible
but did not have marital relations with her until she gave birth to a son, whom he named Jesus.
New Heart English Bible
and had no marital relations with her until she had brought forth a son; and he named him Jesus.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And he did not know her sexually until she delivered her firstborn son, and she called his name Yeshua.
GOD’S WORD® Translation
He did not have marital relations with her before she gave birth to a son. Joseph named the child Jesus.
New American Standard 1977
and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.
Jubilee Bible 2000
and knew her not until she had brought forth her firstborn son, and he called his name Jesus.
King James 2000 Bible
And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
American King James Version
And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
American Standard Version
and knew her not till she had brought forth a son: and he called his name JESUS.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And he knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
Darby Bible Translation
and knew her not until she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.
English Revised Version
and knew her not till she had brought forth a son: and he called his name JESUS.
Webster’s Bible Translation
And knew her not till she had brought forth her first-born son: and he called his name JESUS.
Weymouth New Testament
but did not live with her until she had given birth to a son. The child’s name he called JESUS.
World English Bible
and didn’t know her sexually until she had brought forth her firstborn son. He named him Jesus.
Young’s Literal Translation
and did not know her till she brought forth her son — the first-born, and he called his name Jesus.
Then the Gospel of Matthew identified Jesus with Isaiah's Immanuel.
It's been an issue for centuries.
Then there’s the widespread theory that Mary is “perpetually virgin”, even though she had others by Joseph. This [deranged view] also opens the possibility that the aforementioned Nun is correct insofar as “perpetual virgin” would not preclude Mary copulating before having Jesus.
Reducto ad absurdum.
“people CAN show self control”
I did. And not for want of opportunity.
The nun probably wasn’t either.
red
What difference does it make if he had half brothers?
I’ve never seen anywhere in the bible where it states that Mary remained a virgin following the birth of Jesus.
Seems pretty clear James was a half brother.
Galatians 1:18-19 New International Version (NIV)
Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas[a] and stayed with him fifteen days. 19 I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother.
Galatians 1:18-19 King James Version (KJV)
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord’s brother.
What difference does it make if he had half brothers?
I’ve never seen anywhere in the bible where it states that Mary remained a virgin following the birth of Jesus.
Seems pretty clear James was a half brother.
Galatians 1:18-19 New International Version (NIV)
Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas[a] and stayed with him fifteen days. 19 I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother.
Galatians 1:18-19 King James Version (KJV)
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord’s brother.
Good Grief. The Immaculate Conception refers to Mary’s birth without original sin.
Nobody is shocked. Seen 50 years of this crap. The Church says Blessed Virgin Mary is perpetual virgin because the Church has access to information that liberal fools don’t. End of story. Don’t like it? Fine.
Paul identifies James as the Lord's brother. The Greek is clear on this.
Look up every use of “until” in scripture. You might be surprised at how often it means, “forever.”
My daughter made an interesting observation once. “She said, why is it that regarding [issue to remain nameless] people want to take revelation literally, but the rest of the bible symbolically? Shouldn’t it be the other way around?”
i.e. it is best to use the plain meaning of words unless some contradiction that is overwhelming in evidence makes it necessary to chose a more “creative” meaning.
The contention that Mary was immaculately conceived is what I was referring to. Mary having to have a special nature, of not being born in Adam’s likeness — and therefore not being in Abraham’s etc either — is what imperils her connection to the guys that got the promise and thus their connection to Jesus as their seed.
Christ being born of a virgin does not require the virgin be born without sin. But His being their seed, and not just hers, means that she must be a true daughter to them.
Think on this: if it was necessary that Mary herself be without sin so that Jesus wouldn’t be contaminated with it basically requires at least one of these be true.
Biology: Mary’s blood as a physical contaminant
... we know that in an ordinary pregnancy that the placental barrier prevents the mother’s blood from reaching her child and except that in an abnormal pregnancy, which may often result in miscarriage, no human being had ever had any but their own blood until the advent of blood transfusion technology relatively recently.
... so God has arranged nature in such a way that Mary could not be a source of physical contamination to Jesus.
Legal and Spiritual: do women in the ordinary course of things transmit their OWN sin nature to their children?
... Scripture actually indicates something completely different, that it is in Adam that all have inherited sin.
... In the past I’ve found it essentially impossible to separate legal imputation of sin from spiritual because they all fall back on the same evidences as to why these don’t happen through mothers.
... one of these relates to who told the Woman about the commandment not to eat of that tree. There are only two possibilities: God told her later but it is not recorded or Adam told her on the assumption it was a commandment for her as well. The distinction between these is vital: for if the former then she sinned against God but if the latter only against Adam. That they did not see they were naked until Adam ate indicates the latter and would mean that even Eve, as she would soon be called, own sin was from Adam.
... thereafter two things are basically said: either a father begets a child in his image or a woman get a child with the help of The Lord .
... if sin is normally in Adam, in all cases imputed through the father, in Eve’s case then it should be the same of her daughters too.
So there is no real barrier to Mary being fully a member of her family on ordinary terms and also Jesus’ mother because His Father is not Adam nor is His Father in Adam. Just as Scripture indicates.
So if the idea of the immaculate conception of Mary was somehow necessary then I’m confident to inquire, given the view that she could not be a source of contamination in Christ, neither physical nor spiritual: why?
I believe Mary was a virgin until after Jesus was born - God values the union between a man and wife too much to have denied her and Joseph the consummation of their marriage.
Look up every use of “until” in scripture. You might be surprised at how often it means, “forever.”
“Until” in the NT.
http://www.artbible.info/concordance/u/86-2.html
Lexicon
http://biblehub.com/greek/2193.htm
No. It is not a fact. It is a hypothetical statement which cannot be proven.
Then, and today, especially in Slavic countries including Russia, first cousins living under the same roof are referred to as brothers and sisters.
In addition to siblings of the same parents or of the same father, first cousins, half-brothers, half-sisters, brothers, and sisters were and are all referred to as brothers and sisters. However, among these, there is a line of succession as in first-born son of the first wife, etc. and this line establishes an ordering of the offspring that is understood usually without discussion because of social convention or of the will of the family head.
This is prevalent where close-knit families live under the same roof or on the same farm or land, very near to one another, and where is shared the same basic resources and structures such as water, kitchen, etc.
The term ‘cousin’ was and is reserved for cousins who live under another roof in a different setting with their own resources.
This is not to say Jesus had no blood brother by Joseph and Mary, it is to say that it is not proven. It is also to say there is evidence that references to ‘brother’ or ‘sister’ in scripture are contextual and not always literal. And as described above, there is evidence today that the usage of terms of relations are context driven.
When Jesus spoke from the Cross looking at his Mother, the scripture states “Woman, behold your son”. And then Jesus turns to the Disciple that he loved and says “Behold your Mother”.
18 This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about[d]: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit. 19 Because Joseph her husband was faithful to the law, and yet[e] did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.
20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,[f] because he will save his people from their sins.”
22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel”[g] (which means “God with us”).
24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.
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