Posted on 09/30/2016 11:36:30 AM PDT by Gamecock
I’ll take Paul the apostle’s teaching any day over those men. No one needs them. Can’t say the same about Paul (who JESUS chose to teach us Gentiles).
I too trust the Paul and not one of those men is at odds with him on this point.
By this I take it you've never shared the Gospel with someone.
Paul lead many to salvation.
"For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: if by any means i may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh and might SAVE some of them." (Romans 11:13,14)
"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?...Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the word of God.' (Romans10:14-17)
Jesus said, "Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; they are white already to harvest" (John 4:13)
People are perishing because Christians do not share the Gospel, but instead say what you say, what I used to say, which is "no one can save anybody." This stands refuted on its face by the Bible, by Paul, by Jesus himself. One sows, another reaps. But someone has to sow the word by sharing the Gospel, for it is the Gospel which saves (1 Corinthians 15:1,2)
Yes and no.
The Great Commission commands every believer to communicate the Gospel to unbelievers, or in effect lead them to salvation.
All three persons of the Trinity are involved in salvation, but only God the Father can convert the unbeliever to faith in Christ. It is His work in us. No human being is able to convert another human to Christianity. The conversion, though, requires knowledge of God and faith in what was provided at the Cross.
Communicating the Gospel is a very efficient method of the unbeliever becoming aware of salvation.
The whole problem with the *sinner’s prayer* thing is that I fear many people have been led in a prayer that they don’t really mean and think that simply because they recited some words, they are saved.
It’s almost the same in my book as what baptism has become for many, that if you’re baptized, you’re saved and because osmeone told them that if they prayed it, they were saved.
But when I see many people led in a sinner’s prayer and you can tell they feel coerced into it and there’s never any change in their lives, then they weren’t saved.
I suppose the best sinner’s prayer is the one in the gospel’s by the publican, *Be merciful to me, a sinner.* because Jesus Himself said that was the man who went away justified.
I think of my brother who was involved in a supposedly Christian pyramid scheme many years ago and this scheme presented itself as having many converts.
Well, my brother was at one of their Rah, Rah rallies and at the end they asked everyone who wanted to accept Christ to stand and pray. He stood and *accepted* Christ. I asked him about it and he told me that he did it because that was what you did as part of the group if you wanted to get ahead in the organization.
That was almost 40 years ago and he has NEVER shown the least inclination or interest in God. NOTHING changed. At all. Not in that entire time.
So he prayed a sinner’s pray. So what? He’s not saved.
placemarker
Rev_14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
hey are destroyed, first the tent they occupy (the body) and then they are destroyed (the soul).
Destroy, in the biblical sense, is equivalent to punish and torment for all eternity. The soul, being immortal, experiences "death" when separated from the body, "death" when separated from their first estate and plunged into a new sin nature, and "death" when separated from the presence of God.
Yes. It is critical that we communicate our faith.
However, we may do no more than witness to our condition. Anything beyond that is placing oneself in a position of spiritual authority. The ONLY authority is Christ.
1 Corinthians 9:19
Though I am free of obligation to anyone, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.
James 5:20
consider this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
Isaiah 52:7
How lovely on the mountains Are the feet of him who brings good news, Who announces peace And brings good news of happiness, Who announces salvation, And says to Zion, “Your God reigns!”
Mark 1:16,17
As Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, He saw Simon and his brother Andrew. They were casting a net into the sea, for they were fishermen. “Come, follow Me, Jesus said, “and I will make you fishers of men.”
Kind of like “going forward” at an invitation in church. Hopefully, at least in the churches I attended, those that walked forward were met by a believer and they spoke to them one-on-one making sure the gospel was understood and the person was truly desiring to hear more and believe. I’ve also seen some church services end with the presentation of the gospel and everyone bowed their heads and closed their eyes and those who wanted to receive Christ were asked to raise their hand. In some tangible way, a person can think back to a point in time where he/she made a decision to receive Christ as Savior. Of course, this is an ongoing relationship and those who are diligently seeking to know God WILL find Him. It certainly doesn’t begin AND end with that one act of faith.
The Gospel is a call for sinners, currently under God’s wrath, to flee for refuge and escape. It is an offer of life.
Regarding the analogy, don’t try to read too much into it. It is only about the point it is trying to make, that her attitude about Mr. Right would be different if he gave her that choice, and that she would be choosing for the wrong reason.
And that is what puts a LOT of people in churches - fear of a vengeful God making them suffer for all eternity. That is not the gospel. That is not coming to God out of desire to please him and reciprocate. That is about stark terror.
Rev_14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
If you could suddenly be 60 light years from earth right now and had a really, REALLY powerful TV antenna, you could watch the Milton Berle show, as it was being broadcast.
But Milton, and his show are no more.
The smoke, like radio waves, ascends forever.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Other equally obvious factors, however, often go unnoticed or unmentioned. First, it should be obvious that the vision given to John consists of highly symbolic, apocalyptic imagery and must be interpreted carefully. As discussed above, the imagery of eternal torment may not communicate literal eternal torment any more than a seven-headed, ten-horned beast (Rev 13:1) ridden by a prostitute with the name of a city on her head (Rev 17:3-6) communicates a future reality like something pictured in a horror movie.
Secondly, it should be obvious that death and Hades are abstractions, not concrete entities, and are thus incapable of experiencing torment at all. And yet in this image they’re thrown into the same lake of fire as the others after being emptied of their dead (Rev 20:13-14). Most traditionalists acknowledge that this means death and Hades will be no more, yet they nevertheless argue that even though the resurrected lost are not explicitly said to be tormented eternally in the lake of fire their fate must be the same as the others thrown into the fire. But consistency demands that everything thrown into the fire experiences the same fate, so that of the devil, beast, false prophet, and risen wicked should be annihilation in reality, even though some of them are depicted in the imagery as eternally tormented.
Thirdly, not only do we have the Old Testament uses of the imagery to rely on (Rev 14:9-11), but the book of Revelation in many cases interprets the images for us! John’s vision is sometimes interpreted for him (Rev 17:7), and John appears to explain the imagery of the lake of fire itself by calling it “the second death” (Rev 20:14), the same interpretation offered by “he who sits on the throne” (Rev 21:8). So the imagery does not symbolize everlasting suffering but death—a permanent, irreversible death of body and soul (Matthew 10:28). Furthermore, the divine interpreter of imagery, foretelling the same events, explained to Daniel that what the beast experiences in the imagery symbolizes the permanent annihilation of the dominion of the kingdom it represents (Daniel 7:11,25).
Lastly, the symbolic nature of the vision recorded in the book of Revelation is such that it must not be the foundation upon which we build our doctrine of hell, even though it is arguably used in just that fashion by traditionalists. When we allow the divine interpreters of Daniel’s and John’s visions to explain the imagery to us, we can see that it communicates annihilation. The dominion of the kingdom represented by the beast comes to an end. Death and Hades come to an end. The devil and his angels will come to an end. The unsaved will likewise come to an end, a permanent destruction of body and soul.
In ‘all your scripture searching’ have you yet to read ‘Fear of the Lord is beginning of wisdom? So far, you seem to have missed a few mileposts!
Destroy, in the biblical sense, is equivalent to punish and torment for all eternity. The soul, being immortal, experiences “death” when separated from the body, “death” when separated from their first estate and plunged into a new sin nature, and “death” when separated from the presence of God.
And most importantly, the soul is definitely no immortal. It very clearly teaches in matthew 10:28 that He can kill both body and soul. What is eternal is the spirit you receive when you are born again.
You haven’t a clue! If you were correct, why the ‘their rest’ in the passage? These are existing beings who get no rest from their torments! You are spittling a false rendering of scripture.
Son, you already have a spirit that will exist ‘forever’. What you need to do is find out if your spirit will go on existing forever as a godless spirit or with HIS Spirit Life in your human spirit.
You are making your case with revelation, a vision rife with metaphor. Revelation is not a source of doctrine, but it can clarify existing doctrine.
If I have to keep dipping into revelation to support my doctrine, I need to re-examine my doctrine, whatever doctrine it may be. This is especially true if my interpretation of Revelation contradicts the rest of scripture.
Son, you already have a spirit that will exist ‘forever’. What you need to do is find out if your spirit will go on existing forever as a godless spirit or with HIS Spirit Life in your human spirit.
Leading a repentant person in some version of “the sinner’s prayer” is a necessary final step in the evangelism process. This person is correct - the person may not be ready to fully surrender. Many people go through several cycles of “I prayed the prayer but I’m still under conviction” only to discover that there are things they have not surrendered yet. If a person has been convicted to seek salvation, the Lord wants them to fully surrender, so the evangelist must lovingly (not coercively) give them that opportunity. Not doing so is a copout.
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