Posted on 09/30/2016 11:36:30 AM PDT by Gamecock
Ah, I have no clue where you get the notion of ‘TIME’ travel... Paul says to be absent from the ‘body’ (flesh) is to be present with the LORD. Flesh has a time stamp on it and once it returns to the dust from which it came it is gone forever... Ecclesiastics 12 whole chapter but particularly verse 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it... John 3:13 the lesson Christ was teaching Nicodemus... being born from above...13 And NO man hath ascended up to heaven, but He That came down from heaven, even the Son of man Which is in heaven. A ‘soul’ is placed in the womb at conception, which is when ‘life’ begins on this earth. And each soul/spirit intellect has a history, which Peter explains, IIPeter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of,
that by the word of God the heavens were of OLD, and the earth standing out of the water (first flood described in Genesis 1:2) and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then *WAS*, being overflowed with water, perished: (when the dinos were destroyed.
7 But the heavens and the earth which are *NOW*, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Those that Christ offered salvation to in Peter 3 and 4 were all the souls/spirit intellect back to the time of Noah who were ‘waiting’ in heaven... It stands to reason that those who came before would be offered salvation before the rest of us took this flesh journey.
The ONLY thing that Christ fulfilled was the blood sacrifice required under the ‘old’ covenant for the remission of sins. He did NOT change even a jot or tittle of the law. Flesh still requires the need of the law.. AND in Christ even the flesh sometimes likes to take a walk on the dark side. IF the law is no longer in effect then there can be NO sin by anyone... To love the Creator is to follow His Commandments... I cannot wait to hear the law is no longer in effect doctrine explained to the Heavenly Father... it will NOT fly.
The book of Jude is about those Sons of God that cause the flood of Noah and their rebellion and following the ‘tree of the knowledge of good and evil’, NOT named, but numbered have already been sentenced to death along with the named devil.
Yep. We agree.
That one is most important. However, the greek word means a lot more than “fear”. It’s more like respect and revere.
“I have no clue where you get the notion of ‘TIME’ travel.”
I got it from your statement in post #50:
“Those three days and nights in the tomb, Christ went to all, souls/spirit intellects, back to the time of Noah and offered them salvation”
Apparently I misunderstood what you were saying. You said Christ “went” and “back to the time of Noah”.
But I gather from what you are now posting that you mean the souls from back to the time of Noah were present (at the time Christ’s body was in the earth) in Heaven (?).
I don’t want to debate or split hairs over where souls were after death during the Old Testament times.
“Those that Christ offered salvation to in Peter 3 and 4 were all the souls/spirit intellect back to the time of Noah who were ‘waiting’ in heaven.”
The waiting there is God waiting for people to have the opportunity to repent. The waiting happened while the ark was being built. It is not souls waiting in Heaven.
1 Peter 3:20
Who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
It was not “since the days of Noah”. It was “in the days of Noah”. When reading your current post and your earlier reference to the “time of Noah” I keep thinking you are referring to those men, women, and children who perished in the flood of Noah. That is the sense of the meaning when Jesus says the last days will be “as the days of Noah”. But perhaps you are using the flood as a demarcation and are referring to the souls of the dead since the flood?
I agree that there is a Biblical basis for believing the souls of the righteous dead were able to join Christ in paradise subsequent to His death.
Ephesians 4:8-10
Therefore He says: “When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men.” (Now this, “He ascended” — what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.
“Leading captivity captive” means He led His friends to freedom.
I believe, like you do apparently, that these were the departed dead.
What I am unclear about in the position you expressed is whether you believe these people had a “second chance” to receive the Gospel at that time. Nothing in the Bible supports that view. People in both the Old and New Testaments were saved by faith, and this salvation from sin was granted during their lives on earth, not after their deaths.
“Whereby the world that then *WAS*, being overflowed with water, perished: (when the dinos were destroyed.”
While I do not intend to split hairs over every issue, I don’t completely agree with this statement. Since dinosaurs were land animals, whatever “kind” is represented by these creatures had to either be on the ark in pairs, or was already extinct. It could not have been the flood that caused their immediate extinction.
“The ONLY thing that Christ fulfilled was the blood sacrifice required under the ‘old’ covenant for the remission of sins.”
That’s not correct either. Christ fulfilled the Law. He fulfilled ALL of it, not just one thing.
Matthew 5:17-18
Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
It could not be more clear that Christ fulfilled ALL of the Law.
“IF the law is no longer in effect then there can be NO sin by anyone.”
Agreed.
1 John 3:4
Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.
And those who are not in Christ ARE under the law for judgment:
Romans 3:19
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
The scope of the Law is the whole world. However, not everything contained in the Law applies to Gentiles. For Gentiles there is still a principle of righteousness revealed in the Law that applies to ALL people:
Romans 2:14-15
For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them.
Here Paul describes an awareness Gentiles have of right and wrong without ever having heard the Law of Moses. He says the laws of God were already written on their heart. This pertains to things like sexual fidelity in marriage and not engaging in perverted sexual relations such as homosexuality. It includes not stealing, not lying, and being respectful toward God. It does not pertain to circumcision, Sabbath keeping, tithing, or abstaining from eating unclean animals, except where God has provided specific direction otherwise. In general, the Law of Moses was written specifically for the Israelites, though it has application to all people today.
1 Timothy 1:8
But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully.
The distinction is between obeying the spirit of the Law and the letter of the Law:
Colossians 2:14
Having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
Ephesians 2:15
Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace.
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
And the Law of Moses is not a means to becoming righteous or receiving salvation:
Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Believers in Christ are not saved by our own good works, but we are saved for the purpose of doing good works. Apart from Christ, all of our effort to do what’s right is a miserable failure. The good works can only spring from a heart transformed by the mercy and grace of God.
Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Amen to that...
Genesis 2:15 The LORD God took the man and placed him in the Garden of Eden in order to have him work it and guard it. 16 The LORD God commanded the man: “You may freely eat from every tree of the garden, 17 but you are not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, because you will certainly die during the day that you eat from it.” Did Adam's body with an active behavior mechanism die the day he ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? No, so since God does not lie, something died that day, his alive spirit.
There are cults who would agree with your scenario ... but the scripture is clear, God told Adam in that day he would die.
No; Paul doesn't.
2 Corinthians 5:8 KJV
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
NIV
We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
True... there's enough to argue over this subject in the NT.
Lazarus; that Jesus wept about; might have had a slightly different experience.
There is a HEALTHY fear that leads us to the truth. We should be in fear of what the Almighty is completely able to do while receiving the grace and mercy that He bestows on those who don't pretend that what they believe doesn't matter to Him.
No.
This kind of "angel," whether always obedient to God, or those demons fallen with Satan and deposed with him to this earthly sphere, are not and never have been made of human reproductive DNA. Not only is there no evidence to that effect, but Scripture argues against it:
"Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by
inheritance obtained a more excellent namea than they.
For unto which of the angelsb said he at any time, Thou art
my Sona, this day have I begottenc thee? And again, I will be
to him a Father, and he shall be to me -a- Sona?
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegottend into the
world, he saith, And let all the angelsb of God worship him.
And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angelsb spiritse,
and his ministers a flame of firef" (Heb 1:5-7 AV).
Notes:
a = title, signifying a filial relationship b = beings of spiritual substance, not material
c = a unitary being caused by God's Spirit suffusing and motivating body of human DNA flesh, conceived and gestated in and born out of Mary's body, at the time of His First Coming to the temporal sphere as human
d = the first resurrected-to-absolute-life out of the dead ons (Rom. 8:29), again meaning a second time coming to the temporal sphere as human, anticipating His Second Coming
e = breath (Gen 2:7, 2 Thess. 2:8); wind (1Ki. 18:45,19:11; 2 Ki. 3:17; Job 1:19; cf LXX); Spirit (Jn. 3:8) Πνεῦμα
f = plasma of superheated particles giving off light when ionized
Jesus displaced demonic spirits controlling the bodies of madmen through their spirits. These spirits were inherently bodiless (Mt. 8:28-32, Mk. 5:1-13, Lk. 8:26-33) and thus incapable of reproducing.
The correct understanding of Genesis 6:1-3 is that humans were having children. As they grew into maturity and got a sense of being accountable to God for their attitudes and actions, those who by faith trusted in God to forgive their sins by substitutional blood sacrifices, were through faith in Him counted as sons (and daughters) of God. They were to seek life mates amongst that communion. That would figuratively be those of the spiritual line of godly Seth.
In contrast, those who spurned the fellowship and guidance of their Creator remained as merely descendants (sons) of humans alone, remaining as the spiritually dead descendants of ungodly Cain, attempting (if at all) to trust in their own works to recommend themselves to others, and to be fellowshipped with, let alone marry.
It is very clear that The God did not wish His Children of faith to wed unfaithful mates. That theme was clear to them, and they chose to ignore it. So God decided to destroy them all for their lack of faith.
All, that is, except for faithful Noah, through whom God chose to replenish the human population of the earth. After five hundred years of search, God apparently finally after selecting Noah for this, supplied him with a faithful wife, and faithful sons who themselves emulated him by finding faithful mates.
Make of the Nephelim what you will, but as to a cross between angels and humans, that is not biologically possible. It is a theory dreamt up by men ignorant of biology prior to the discovery of cell propagation and its obvious consequences to wrong doctrinal assumptions.
"Blessed is every one that feareth the LORD; that walketh in his ways."
Regarding the Righteous, Loving God, as the object of ones love, to be in fear in His presence is to dread to disobey or disappoint the One Whom one loves. Eh?
Exactly! The truly wise will grasp the truth that there is no god but THE Almighty God, Jehovah, King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and who gave His only begotten son that whosever believes in Him will NOT perish but have everlasting life.
I’ve found the words energy and dynamic to be rooted in the Greek terms ERGON and DUNAMIS respectively.
Energy, more explicitly, is derived from EN + ERGON or the force within a substance.
Dynamics is the study of power in modern science.
When studying Scripture, we don’t want to place the cart before the horse, but we do want to understand the meanings of the terms.
Science has taken the original Greek words in their study of power, work, force, and energy.
Force is quantifiable and with direction associated with movement.
Work is a force times a distance.
Power is Work over time.
Energy is the force within a body. (i.e. potential or kinetic force).
Please note these definitions are scientific terms developed from the early 1800s, whereas their use in Scripture was some 1800 years earlier. (It might also be noted, early scientists had their priorities straight in beginning their search for knowledge from Scripture, rather than in attacking Scripture.)
DUNAMIS contains an element of ability to work as in POWER, while ENERGY is more associated with the FORCE within an object of person.
These are interesting distinctions because the words are used in Rev 5:12 by the multitudes of angels and the 4 beasts and the 24 elders all witnessing our Lord and Savior to be worthy of all:
Power (DUNAMIS)
Riches (PLOOTOS)
Wisdom (SOPHIA)
Strength (ISCHUS)
Honor (TIME)
Glory (DOXA)
Blessing (EULOGIA)
This is also echoed by all creatures in Rev 5:13. (All the words are echoed in the Scriptural account except for riches, wisdom, and strength. ???)
First consider the anthropology of man.
1Th 5:23
(23) And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
In Genesis man is made body and soul with the spirit combined with the soul. NEPHESH doesn’t separate the two.
Next we look at
1Co 2:14
(14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
After the fall in the Garden of Eden, man is now in a state by default as the natural man. Natural man lacks the human spirit to discern spiritual things. At salvation, God places a new human spirit into the believer. Prior to salvation, man is arrogant, a condemned person scarred with sin and lacking the spirit, which is not the state which God intended when He created us. He isn’t free to give us a human spirit until we confess our sins to him alone, through faith in what Christ provided on the Cross. Once we face Him and confess our sins to Him, His perfect Integrity allows Him to place the spirit in us because all sin has already been judged, but not yet forgiven.
When He recognizes His work in us, our faith in Him, He is sure and just to forgive us our sins, then He freely may give us the Human Spirit.
The human spirit is where God the Holy Spirit indwells in this Church Age.
Returning to the Scriptural account of the Garden of Eden, it is significant that man was forbidden from eating from a particular tree, namely the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. The reason is told man. Lest we would surely die.
Later after sin, man is condemned to suffer death.
This is very important....when we study His Word, we need to be in fellowship with Him, because the faculties we have to study His Word are scarred by sin. One particular scar is our confusion of sin with simply something evil and good as being something opposite of sin. Human good, separate from our fellowship with God is simply good for nothingness or also a type of sin, missing the mark of God’s Plan for us.
This is because with the Knowledge of Good and Evil, we now too frequently substitute our knowledge of good and evil with our fellowship with God.
Since He made man to perform good works, when we have knowledge of good and evil, we frequently act independently of Him seeking to perform good work, except that in itself is a sin of human good, not meeting the standards of Divine Good. It is the type of work that will be burnt up as hay and stubble.
In the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve didn’t die physically after eating the Fruit, because they are recorded as still communicating with God after the act. They didn’t die soulishly, because they remembered their sin, they reasoned regarding why they sinned, and guiltily hid from God, all manifesting they very much had the capacity of their souls after they ate the fruit.
What they had lost was their spirit. God was able to communicate with them by His Volition.
Death, being a state of existence involving separation, shows Adam and Eve still had their bodies and souls, but their spirits had died. They ten stood condemned as a species, which couldn’t be reconciled to God without a perfect Sacrifice.
Every human being today is born physically and with a body and soul, but lacking a spirit in fellowship with God.
This is verified in several NT scriptures.
1Co 2:14
(14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
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