Posted on 09/26/2016 4:47:49 PM PDT by marshmallow
The Joint Commission for Theological Dialogue announced a substantial agreement but healing the historic schism still requires plenty of work
As of last Thursday, the Joint Commission for Theological Dialogue between the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church announced that it had reached substantial agreement on the questions of primacy and synodality in the Church. It was described as a “landmark agreement”, and one source asked excitedly whether Orthodox Churches might soon “recognise the Pope”. Has there really been a historic breakthrough in the process towards healing the thousand-year-old schism between East and West?
That the issue is a thorny one is shown by the recent history of the dialogue. In 2007 a meeting of the Commission at Ravenna produced a statement which recognised a historical right of the Bishop of Rome to be considered as protos, first in the order of bishops in the pre-schism Church, while leaving it to future discussions to see how this primacy might be exercised in a future, reunited Church.
The impact of the Ravenna document was somewhat reduced by the absence of the Moscow patriarchate, the largest Orthodox Church, because of an internal Orthodox dispute. In 2014 the Commission met at Amman in Jordan, but failed to reach agreement on the theme of “Primacy and Synodality”. This year, with only of the small Church of Georgia expressing reservations, the group meeting in the Italian town of Chieti has managed to achieve a consensus on the issue.
The document, bearing the full title “Synodality and Primacy during the first Millennium: Towards a common understanding in service to the Unity of the Church”, was released as early as Friday. A perusal of it shows that, while it is of undoubted significance as a stage in the dialogue, it is too early to be ringing the church........
(Excerpt) Read more at catholicherald.co.uk ...
ealgeone:
All have sinned does not mean all have sinned, by definition, a child of 2 years old has not sinned personally, although they, have original sin. Given that Christ had a fully Human Nature, this passage if interpreted absolutely literally would potentially imply that Christ in his Human nature sinned, which Catholic Doctrine strictly forbids even the notion of this.
The Eucharistic Prayers of the Catholic Church when speaking of the Incarnation are very Specific, Christ who took on our Humanity and was like us in ALL things except Sin.
ealgeone:
And I respond to your post to keep others from falling victim to the false theology for the first protestant church of this or that or the other. So in that sense, we are on the same page.
Holy Mother Russia sees its destiny as saviour of christianity. This includes nuking the western cities if need be.
http://www.whatdoesitmean.com/index2126.htm
Russia's cities are filled with moslems. A return nuclear strike by Nato/US would rid them of these people. Also the Russians are going to ground and expect war if Hillary wins the election.
Get Ready
http://www.whatdoesitmean.com/index2127.htm
The Orthodox see their mission as saving christianity from protestants, moslems, liberals, communists and the devolved mess of new world antichristian pseudo christianity. Vis The Christian Church, the Unitarian Church, the Quakers etc.
whatdoesitmean.com has stories about the Russian view of their destiny to survive and prevail.
Our missile shield installed in ROmania now has nuclear tipped warheads aimed at Moscow. Russia has moved up their mobile ICBMS 100 miles awy and points them to Europe. Russia has 20 new military bases in the Arctic with missiles pointed at us. The Orthodox State Church survived 70 years of communism and is all for the take down of the west to keep christianity alive. The USA is no longer the champion of Christianity - RUssia is.We lost our country to atheists, communists, moslems and anti-christians and can't take it back without the inevitable civil war no one wants to have.
Hey, you gotta come up with your own material! :)
Good grief. The catholic reaches again in a vain attempt to defend the worship of Mary.
The primary difference, and it is a key one for all to understand, is that in intercessory prayer we are not praying to each other as the catholic does to Mary.
We do not kneel before an idol of mary, nor light candles or burn incense as the catholic does in their worship of Mary.
Yet Saint Paul asked the Church to pray for each other (see Colossians 1:9), the early Church prayed for Saint Peter while he was in prison (Acts 12:5); the writer of Hebrews asked others to pray for them (Hebrews 13:18)
The observant reader of the texts will note the absence of any mention of Mary or the departed saints in these texts.
Intercessory Prayer, which asking Mary to pray for us entails, is presented in somewhat explicit terms, in the NT.
To which the catholic cannot, no matter how hard they try, produce one text to support this claim.
In the book of Revelation, 24 elders in heaven intercede with God for Christians on earth (Rev. 5:8).
Context is always helpful in these cases...especially with the catholic.
And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. 8When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. Rev 5:7-8 NASB.
Later in Revelation, we see Angels present to God the prayers of the Church on earth (Rev. 8:3).
3Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne. 4And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel’s hand. Rev 8:3-4
It is clear from these and other texts that heavenly beings (saints and angels) are aware of what is going on here on earth (Luke 15:7; 1 Tim 5:21)
7“I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance. 8“Or what woman, if she has ten silver coins and loses one coin, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it? 9“When she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbors, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the coin which I had lost!’ 10“In the same way, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” Luke 15:7-10 NASB
. 20Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning. 21I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality. 22Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin. 1 Timothy 5:20-22 NASB
Unfortunately for the catholic their position is not supported by the texts cited.
In the Secret of Mary by Louis D Montfort, he writes:
48. 3. We must never go to our Lord except through Mary, using her intercession and good standing with him. We must .
49. 4. We must perform all our actions for Mary, which means that as slaves of this noble Queen we will work only for her, promoting her interests and her high renown, and making this the first aim in all our acts, while the glory of God will always be our final end. In everything we must renounce self- love because more often than not, without our being aware of it, selfishness sets itself up as the end of all we work for. We should often repeat from the depths of our heart: "Dear Mother, it is to please you that I go here or there, that I do this or that, that I suffer this pain or this injury."
50. Beware, chosen soul, of thinking that it is more perfect to direct your work and intention straight to Jesus or straight to God.
Without Mary, your work and your intention will be of little value. But if you go to God through Mary, your work will become Mary's work, and consequently will be most noble and most worthy of God.
https://www.ewtn.com/library/Montfort/SECRET.HTM#Intro
By spreading devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary, St Louis De Montfort was teaching souls to love the devil's greatest enemy. [In True Devotion to Mary , he states that the devil fears Mary more than all Angels and men,
and in a sense more than God Himself.
De Montfort's writing was examined by the Holy See, which pronounced there was nothing in them to hinder his beatification and canonization. https://archive.org/details/TheSecretOfMary
All of this is contradicted by the New Testament. The catholic cannot defend this with any Scripture.
To claim Satan fears Mary, a created being, more than God Himself, the Creator of all, is, well....words fail to explain this blasphemy.
The blasphemy of the catholic church on mary is beyond measure. And the catholic insists they do not pray to hear as if she were God.
An appeal to the truth found in the New Testament is required to clear up this false roman catholic teaching.
5Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?”
6Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. John 14:5-6 NASB
Jesus makes it clear in His reply to Thomas that He is the only way to the Father. The Greek is emphatic in v6 on this. He is the only way.
He does not set a qualification on going through Mary or anyone else. If the catholic wants to insist otherwise they are at odds with Christ Himself.
ealgeone:
Louis D. Monfort is a spiritual writer and theologian, and that is his theological opinion. There are a diversity of spirituality traditions and devotions within the Catholic Church. One could never Pray the Rosary in ones life and still be an orthodox Catholic. Nobody is required to pray the Rosary are have a Marian Spirituality, for the record. The last 3 Popes, all have a devotion to Mary, albeit in different ways. I would say Pope Benedict’s spirituality was more formed by Saint Augustine and Saint Bonvanenture(Patristic and Scholastic theology, but with a more private devotion to Mary). Pope John Paul II had perhaps more of public devotion to Mary, probably prayed the Rosary every day. Pope Francis seems to have a spirituality based on Saint Ignatius (founder of the Jesuits) and by his name Francis, Saint Francis of Assisi.
And yes Louis D. Montfort is a Saint and has a strong Marian Devotion, but not every Catholic has a Marian devotion to his level, neither of the previous 3 Popes did, so while yes he is a Saint, everything one theologian and spiritual writer writes while it may not be in direct conflict with Defined Doctrine, it also does not mean that everything a canonized Saint writes is the only way to express the faith.
And again, what he is writing about is intercessory prayer, prayer with and in communion with Mary to God. There is nothing wrong with that.
ealgeone:
Not supported by you, which of course you are entitled to think that, although, I obviously don’t share your view, and of course, you are entitled to disagree with me.
I only had time to find the Patristic Commentaries on Luke 15:7
http://dhspriory.org/thomas/english/CALuke.htm#15
There are numerous ECF that comment that the Angels in heaven are aware of what is going on here on Earth and they are referred to has Friends and neighbors of man.
So I will go and find commentaries on the other passages as time permits, but again, we have you saying what you say, and me saying what I say, and we have numerous Church Fathers interpreting this text consistent with my post.
So it is your view vs. my view (with backing from the Great Theologians of the early Church) with respect to the orthodox interpretation of this passage.
I am comfortable where I stand.
Here is a commentary from the Catholic Haydock. It is a Patristic Commentary in that it uses the ECF and Great Theologians from the middle ages (Aquinas, Anslem, Bonaventure, etc). I have provided the commentary on Revelation 5:8 and again, it is consistent with what I said linking a scriptural commentary on this passage as far back as Saint CLement of Alexandria who lived in the 2nd half of the 2nd Century (see commentary for verses 7-8)
http://haydock1859.tripod.com/id291.html
Again your view vs. my view (with backing from the Commentaries of the ECF).
Again I am comfortable where I stand.
It was not his "opinion". His writings were approved by the RCC as being ACCURATE.
You can try and spin it anyway you want but it doesn't change what Montfort wrote and what was approved as accurate.
We also have numerous ECFs who disagree with your position.
Sorry...not buying. Montfort's writings are way beyond intercessory prayer.
If confirms the worship of mary among catholics.
Everything seems to be channeled through her in roman catholicism.
Same can be said about any of the ECFs catholics like to cite when their argument supports the catholic position.
find them and cite them in reference to the 2 passages I cited
ealgeone
http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=4306
Again, not true. Saint Louis de Monfort’s had a Marian Devotion, not doubt. That Spirituality was subordinate to God Alone and the Incarnation of Christ, which were what Marian Spirituality was linked to and were pointed to.
Which is taught nowhere in Scripture.
ealgeone:
They are inseparable because of the theology of the Incarnation, which is that by the Power of the Holy Spirit He (Christ) was incarnate of the Virgin Mary and became man.
Again, you can’t just read devotion to Mary apart from the entire theological framework which Monfort is writing. The Incarnation, were Christ was carried in the womb of Mary was the means to and thru which God’s presence and thus his Grace entered our world. That is a theological fact. THus true devotion to Mary is rooted in that same reality 1) God Alone saves, 2) the Incarnation was the means thru which salvation was accomplished in that the incarnation is linked to the Cross where Christ shed his blood on the cross, 3) Devotion to Mary is way of pointing us back to 1 and 2 above.
So does Scripture say to do devotion that way, No, does it say do not do it, no. Is the underlying theology, if understood in the hierarchical way that de Momfort writes it (see 1, 2, and 3 above), unorthodox, No.
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