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To: CTrent1564
Intercessory prayer, it appears, is something that you don’t believe in. SO the next time a friend, a family member of your is sick and asks you to pray for them, are you going to tell them to go fly a kite and pray directly to the Father themselves.

The primary difference, and it is a key one for all to understand, is that in intercessory prayer we are not praying to each other as the catholic does to Mary.

We do not kneel before an idol of mary, nor light candles or burn incense as the catholic does in their worship of Mary.

Yet Saint Paul asked the Church to pray for each other (see Colossians 1:9), the early Church prayed for Saint Peter while he was in prison (Acts 12:5); the writer of Hebrews asked others to pray for them (Hebrews 13:18)

The observant reader of the texts will note the absence of any mention of Mary or the departed saints in these texts.

Intercessory Prayer, which asking Mary to pray for us entails, is presented in somewhat explicit terms, in the NT.

To which the catholic cannot, no matter how hard they try, produce one text to support this claim.

In the book of Revelation, 24 elders in heaven intercede with God for Christians on earth (Rev. 5:8).

Context is always helpful in these cases...especially with the catholic.

And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. 8When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. Rev 5:7-8 NASB.

Later in Revelation, we see Angels present to God the prayers of the Church on earth (Rev. 8:3).

3Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne. 4And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel’s hand. Rev 8:3-4

It is clear from these and other texts that heavenly beings (saints and angels) are aware of what is going on here on earth (Luke 15:7; 1 Tim 5:21)

7“I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance. 8“Or what woman, if she has ten silver coins and loses one coin, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it? 9“When she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbors, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the coin which I had lost!’ 10“In the same way, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” Luke 15:7-10 NASB

. 20Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning. 21I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality. 22Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin. 1 Timothy 5:20-22 NASB

Unfortunately for the catholic their position is not supported by the texts cited.

67 posted on 09/30/2016 3:32:20 PM PDT by ealgeone
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To: ealgeone

ealgeone:

Not supported by you, which of course you are entitled to think that, although, I obviously don’t share your view, and of course, you are entitled to disagree with me.


70 posted on 10/03/2016 7:33:45 AM PDT by CTrent1564
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To: ealgeone

I only had time to find the Patristic Commentaries on Luke 15:7

http://dhspriory.org/thomas/english/CALuke.htm#15

There are numerous ECF that comment that the Angels in heaven are aware of what is going on here on Earth and they are referred to has Friends and neighbors of man.

So I will go and find commentaries on the other passages as time permits, but again, we have you saying what you say, and me saying what I say, and we have numerous Church Fathers interpreting this text consistent with my post.

So it is your view vs. my view (with backing from the Great Theologians of the early Church) with respect to the orthodox interpretation of this passage.

I am comfortable where I stand.


71 posted on 10/03/2016 7:43:25 AM PDT by CTrent1564
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To: ealgeone

Here is a commentary from the Catholic Haydock. It is a Patristic Commentary in that it uses the ECF and Great Theologians from the middle ages (Aquinas, Anslem, Bonaventure, etc). I have provided the commentary on Revelation 5:8 and again, it is consistent with what I said linking a scriptural commentary on this passage as far back as Saint CLement of Alexandria who lived in the 2nd half of the 2nd Century (see commentary for verses 7-8)

http://haydock1859.tripod.com/id291.html

Again your view vs. my view (with backing from the Commentaries of the ECF).

Again I am comfortable where I stand.


72 posted on 10/03/2016 8:08:21 AM PDT by CTrent1564
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