Posted on 07/27/2016 8:46:41 PM PDT by NRx
Bump your whole post!
I completely agree. Another part of that, is that the government hides or does not discuss some of the realities of that life.
Dunno. You'd have to ask people from the first century which is when the Tribulation occurred.
Intra-chrstian theological scuffles are none of my business. But I will observe that many opponents of the “rapture” object to it because rapture theology tends to be philo-Semitic and pro-Israel. Since the “church” will be removed, Israel (in this theory) resume their ancient place as the Chosen People. Certainly supersessionist classical chrstians don’t like that.
It’s not *indisputable*.
Just because the Catholic church doesn’t believe it, doesn’t mean Scripture doesn’t teach it.
There are lots of things the Catholic church teaches that are not found in Scripture and lots of things found in Scripture that the Catholic church teaches against, so their position on this is no surprise.
I rest my case!
No.
I'd put it well behind *baptism saves you*, and *works save you*.
Sheesh, you're really projecting.
Ah ... the preterist comes out of the closet ...
Does it really matter what the sects say? The confusion lies in allowing others to tell us what God said, instead of believing Him when we read it ourselves.
Man is soil and returns to the soil (Gen.3:19). The spirit returns to God who gave it (Ecc.12:7). The soul returns to the unseen whence it came (Psa.9:17 and Acts 2:27,31). Job speaks of death itself as a return when he says: For I know that Thou wilt return me to death. (Job 30:23 AV).
There is no conscious existence in death for anyone. No believers live in some sort of spiritual body after they die. They are dead, their elements and life force no longer function.
The Scriptures describe in detail what the death state is. We do not experience another life in heaven with the Lord when we die, as some suggest when taking Paul’s statements out of context. They have managed to somehow dismiss his words on resurrection, besides not understanding what scriptural death is:
1C 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
And if Christ be not risen, then [is] our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain
Those who are saved through Paul’s preaching are not only resurrected, they are instantly changed into the Lord’s likeness,in the wink of an eye when the Day of the Lord is about to be ushered in on earth.
God holds us accountable as believers, but that is not the same as the negative judgment that unbelievers receive at the Great White Throne a thousand years after He returns to earth.
2C 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.
This occurs for our benefit, to eliminate the record of the wrongs we have committed, and the acknowledgment of the good we have done according to His will during this life. It is a session of rewards for service. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ, period.
What are the eternal laws that govern salvation?
This is how I believe it to be. I am not arguing, I want to know what I am missing:
First you believe in God. Second believe in Jesus. Believe that he died for our sins, and that he was resurrected. Admit that you are a sinner in need of a savior, and ask for forgiveness. Evidence of a person’s acceptance of Christ would manifest in that person’s life and forsake their old life (whatever problems that would have included).
There will be no witnessing done by these 144,000. The time for witnessing will be finished and the Son of Mankind will be on the earth to judge the nations. Grace will not be the message at that time. The twelve apostles and the 144,000 celibates will rule with a rod of iron, and there will be no need to witness what will be apparent facts of power, miracles, and glory unraveling before everyone’s eyes to see.
I forgot the baptism part. I agree with that part. The rest I am not so sure. I will have to read more.
And how did you arrive at that arbitrary number?
I’m southern baptist 1950s and 60s upbringing and early 70s
It was fairly clear then
Death
Await judgement in front of God like everyone else before us in slumber
Awaken judgement
If so fortunate as to have believed then everlasting life in the kingdom of heaven
Where did it all get off track?
All these different interpretations
Revelation 7 discusses this, and their purpose. 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. 4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
From what I can see, the Tribulation will not start until these 144,000 have been sealed.
Then in Rev 7: 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
From what I read, these 144,000 saved a great amount of people during Great Tribulation. Especially from Rev 7:14
Also, In Revelation 14:3 - 9. And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
After all the two witnesses are there to do what...preach with power and to use the power of God as they will to correct the nations and to blunt the connivance of the beast system? They are there as well to bring a sense of hope to those suffering for Christ on the earth at the time and to be a witness for God!(God always provides a witness for himself!)
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