Posted on 07/07/2016 6:50:38 AM PDT by Salvation
There is a tendency for us to simplistically dismiss the gods of the ancient world as mere figments of human imagination, but the biblical approach is a bit more complex than that.
To be clear, at no time in the Scriptures were these gods ever acknowledged to be gods in any true sense of the word. There is only one God and He is the LORD.
Consider the following text by St. Paul:
For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”—yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist (1 Cor 8:5-6).
It is a bit unclear whether St. Paul is affirming the existence of these gods or simply prescinding from a debate about that topic. For example, if I were to say to you, “Look, even if you may be right about that particular detail, it still doesn’t change the final answer,” I am not necessarily affirming that you are right about that detail, I am saying that I don’t really want to discuss that point, but rather, move on to the more fundamental point and conclusion.
So St. Paul may not necessarily be affirming that these gods actually exist, but neither is he outright denying that some beings exist that the pagans wrongly call gods.
In the Old Testament a similar stance is evident. There are repeated references to the gods of the pagans or Gentiles. The gods are not usually declared to be nonexistent, but rather it is said that if they do exist they are of no avail and far inferior to the one, true God of Israel: the LORD. There is even a passage in the Book of Psalms that seems to presuppose God in the midst of these gods:
God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment: “How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked? … I said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you; nevertheless, like men you shall die, and fall like any prince” (Ps 82 1-2; 5-6).
It is a complex passage. The context seems to be God rebuking princes and leaders of the people. But then why are they called gods? And why are they told that they will fall like princes?
The Scriptures do not tend to deny that entities called gods may in fact exist among the pagans. Hence they may not merely be figments of imagination. Yet if they do exist, they are powerless before the True God of Israel and none of them is a true god in any proper sense of the word. They are called gods but are not.
But if they do exist, what could they be? The frequent biblical answer is that they are demons posing as gods, deceiving the nations. Consider some of the following texts:
They did not destroy the peoples, as the Lord commanded them, but they mixed with the nations and learned to do as they did. They served their idols, which became a snare to them. They sacrificed their sons and their daughters to the demons; they poured out innocent blood (Psalm 106:34-38).
Note here that many of the psalms are written in a poetic manner. But here the poetic structure is based on the correspondence of the thoughts, not the similarity of the sounds. Thus the parallel in this psalm is between “They served their idols” and “They sacrificed their own children to demons.” The gods of the peoples and nations around them are called demons.
They stirred him to jealousy with strange gods; with abominations they provoked him to anger. They sacrificed to demons that were no gods, to gods they had never known (Deut 32:16-17).
The attestation here is pretty straightforward: the strange gods are demons.
For you provoked your Maker with sacrifices to demons and not to God; You forgot the eternal God who nourished you, and you grieved Jerusalem who nurtured you (Baruch 4:7-8).
While in this passage the term “gods” is not used along with the reference to demons, the echo of other texts referring to the idols and gods of the heathen seems clear.
What do I imply then? That food offered to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. Shall we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than he? (1 Cor 10:20-22)
St. Paul says here that the idols and gods of the pagans are no gods at all but are in fact demons. The sacrifices that the pagans think they are directing to their gods are really being directed to demons.
Thus the Biblical approach to the gods of the pagans is not as simple as mere scoffing and consigning them to the realm of fantasy. The reality was often more tragic and harmful than mere fantasy. The Scriptures hold forth the fearsome possibility (and likelihood) that many of these gods were in fact demons in disguise. They were the deceiver, mockingly assuming his place as a god among the deceived nations.
Early Church Fathers such as Justin Martyr and Tertullian held similar views (that the gods were actually demons).
We do well to remember that when people turn away from God today, it is usually not that they believe nothing, but rather they believe in something (in fact, some believe in almost anything). And in turning to their modern idols, they may not merely be embracing an idea, but far worse, a demon. Our task is not just to summon people away from bad ideas, errors, ignorance, or false doctrines. In many cases we must also rescue them from demons.
Beware the doctrines of demons and their very presence. Scripture’s stance on the gods of the nations is not merely to dismiss them as nonexistent. These gods may in fact be pernicious enemies who are very real, who are not fantasy. As it was then, even so today.
I knew he loved me and I knew his toughness was for my sake.
God seems much tougher than Dad. I know He loves me, but He also knows better than I do what I am capable of if I push myself to the limit.
Probably (and imho, many “ghost” encounters as well).
They’re like powerful rich family you didn’t know you had. They don’t like having their butts kissed, they don’t like it if you only call when you want something. If I do the opposite of what they recommend they let me go and don’t communicate again for a long time. Then they step back in where they left with the lesson.
Initially They helped get use back from a degenerative shoulder. Then they got me very much working on my health, working out, losing weight, effortlessly. I could write the Odin diet. Reduced my need for sleep to a fraction.
Started out just focused on Odin, and had a distinct experience like “I want you to meet somebody” and Freyr, totally different person, positive, healing, extrovert stepped forward to “do a little work on me”. Some of it psychological, I used to think it expedient to be somewhat invisible in life, now everywhere I go, “I have arrived”, LOL.
I didn’t say anything special, other than if these Gods were really my ancestors’ kin, and helped them in dark days and during the great migration, that if They extended their help to me, showed me They were real, I would try to have a personal relationship with Them. They did and I did.
Listen to Ride of the Valkyries a lot? I won’t hammer that point.
;^)
You have your own interpretation, but please do not infer pagan gods on Scripture. No one is sure what the mark of Cain was. Enoch walked with God - The God of Scripture that told us about Enoch resides in Heaven, not the north. You have your own literature to support your beliefs, please do not try to bastardize mine.
I am aware that the rise in Norse paganism is somewhat connected with Volkism and the cultural isolationism that implies. It has also been tied (fairly or unfairly) with certain genres of music that emphasize a world view that is very, very dark.
I think even more than with Catholicism it is very difficult to separate the faith of Norse paganism from a social structure and political outlook that for me at least hearkens back to a time when some very bad ideas came out of such a union.
I would categorize this as a type of tribalism. And tribalism requires the existence of an enemy, even to the point of invention. (There are enough real enemies that would wish to destroy what we have in common.) Inventing more requires stirring up base hatreds and other emotions.
I don’t know if Norse paganism can move beyond that even though I certainly don’t think all such pagans are not capable of doing so.
I imagine for you the Beatitudes seem like a blueprint for weakness and surrender. For a Catholic it tells us how Christ sees us and the world and to live in such a way is a true test of character.
It’s nothing without Robert Duvall and the helicopters.
“You have your own interpretation, but please do not infer pagan gods on Scripture. No one is sure what the mark of Cain was. Enoch walked with God - The God of Scripture that told us about Enoch resides in Heaven, not the north. You have your own literature to support your beliefs, please do not try to bastardize mine.”
Fancy way to tell me what I’m allowed to think and say.
Guess my answer.
Glad you’ve got a sense of humor, FRiend!
“Yeah, they’re gonna play Wagner, scares the hell out of the slopes.”
“This is a Romeo Foxtrot, shall we dance? Make it loud!”
“Kill the wabbit, kill the wabbit, kill the wabbit...”
;^)
“You have your own interpretation, but please do not infer pagan gods on Scripture. No one is sure what the mark of Cain was. Enoch walked with God - The God of Scripture that told us about Enoch resides in Heaven, not the north. You have your own literature to support your beliefs, please do not try to bastardize mine.”Actually, it sounded more like a polite request. I saw the word "please" in there twice.
He is not a polar opposite
, for to be such is to be equal in some way. God the creator of all, including Lucifer, is obviously something greater. So Satan is not the polar opposite of God, perhaps the polar opposite of Michael or another archangel, but neither Father, nor Son, nor Holy Spirit.
Very true -- Jesus even denounces them with such force that the hating of "the deeds of the Nicolaitans" is given as a commendation.
Read the Acts, and John’s first epistle, and you will get the right answers on the eternal quiz.
Hm, John's first Epistle is certainly great, I also like the Gospel of John (my favorite of the gospels) — I would actually recommend James over Acts for anyone who has been a Christian for some length of time: it's a very, very convicting book.
” Actually, it sounded more like a polite request. I saw the word “please” in there twice.”
Rather one-sided to tell everyone they’re Devil worshippers going to Hell, and then forbid them to comment on YOUR faith.
Request denied. But feel free to tell the ceiling what a bad boy I am ;)
I looked through all of Mom MD’s posts and at no time did she ever say you were going to Hell. She was only expressing her faith and beliefs.
I’m sorry to find you so defensive and hostile on this thread.
Are you blissfully unaware of the thread topic? That must be some wonderful Jesus you’re smoking.
I’m quite familiar with Msgr. Pope’s writings. And we can have a calm, reasoned discussion of its contents without the hostility. If you disagree with his conclusions, that’s fine, but attacking others, especially those who hold no ill will towards you, is unbecoming.
You just don’t seem to have the control over unbelievers’ lives that you used to when you were at the head of a mob holding a torch.
Oh , I forgot, you’re the victim today.
Well, it’s sad to see that you have such a low sense of self-esteem and confidence in your own faith that you have to lash out in anger and offer nothing but snide comments toward those with whom you may disagree.
You are new to this forum, having only joined a month ago. I hope you stay and learn more about us. We are not as closed-minded as you may think.
Good luck in your future endeavors.
What I meant to say, in the most general of terms, was that evil exists in the polar opposite direction to Good...adversarial to Good.
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