Posted on 07/06/2016 8:06:36 AM PDT by ebb tide
This should have been a caucus thread.
If this is accurate, it is the best news I have heard from Rome since the election of the Red Pope.
Anyone can read the entire passage and understand what Christ taught. In contrast to what the Samaritan woman believed about place of worship, and in contrast to what Jews taught, Christ taught that worship is not geographical or following ritual. It is about worshipers who worship in spirit and in truth.
It's funny how evangelicals are all for "Christian liberty," unless it's the liberty to worship the way the Catholic church has worshipped for 2000 years. *That* liberty isn't allowed, and adding *that* particular proscription to the Bible is apparently perfectly acceptable.
The Catholic Church has not worshiped that way for 2,000 years. You will look in vain to find a 2,000 year history of facing east - or many other aspects of worship.
Are you free to face any direction - N, S, E, W? Absolutely. It is, however, not a Biblical teaching. That is the discussion.
And there you have a false justification for mirroring paganism and claiming to worship God. I could not have said it better.
If you can’t tell the difference between directing such things to a demon and directing them to the Triune God, I would suggest that you have very little of substance to contribute to this thread.
Direction is not the only issue in Scripture.
Oh, for the depth and height, and heft and pivot, the vibe and wiggle and shudder and click, and the exhilaration and trance of poetry -— my dear aMPU. You say “it’s a metaphor” as if that’s a bad thing. As if you were flicking away a bit of lint.
No. I am saying it is a metaphor and by definition is not meant to be a complete or perfect representation.
It is a way of expressing the unfamiliar by comparison to the familiar. It does not mean the two are identical in every way.
A metaphor is a trope or figure of speech in which an implied comparison is made between two unlike things that actually have something in common. Adjective: metaphorical.A metaphor is said to express the unfamiliar (the tenor) in terms of the familiar (the vehicle). When Neil Young sings, "Love is a rose," "rose" is the vehicle for "love," the tenor. (In cognitive linguistics, the terms target and source are roughly equivalent to tenor and vehicle.)
(Sigh) And then we graduated into middle school!
I had to truncate the original title, let alone attach Catholic Caucus to it.
“What confuses me is he speaking of doing this within parts of the Novus Ordo mass?”
The New Mass, when issued, was understood to include ad orientem. http://atxcatholic.com/index.php/2016/03/popular-misconceptions-catholic-mass-part-ii-ad-orientem/#.V31yC7grLIU
Well, friend, if we are going to discuss what a metaphor is and is not, we need a definition. I pointed out simply that because it was a metaphor, you could not make a complete comparison on additional details.
If you could rightly do this, than Christ claiming to be the Bread of Life could mean so many more things that what He actually meant.
I am not afraid in the least to “mirror paganism” when the pagans were right. Neither was St. John when he wrote “en arche en o logos”, neither was St. Paul in the Areopagus, and neither was C.S. Lewis.
What I am afraid to do is to mirror Christians when they are wrong. Especially about the liturgy.
(Scratching the old coconut meditatively.) But I didn’t see anybody who was actually misunderstanding what a metaphor is. However, a good definition is always welcome, so thank you.
Just wait till the Catholic hits high school. Then they’ll understand. :)
Paganism isn't right.
Neither was St. John when he wrote “en arche en o logos”
Unless you are stating that God's inspired Words in Genesis are pagan, I'm at a loss to make any sense of that statement.
neither was St. Paul in the Areopagus,
Paul was having a discussion and referenced one of the gods who was referred to as unknown. He was not inviting pagans into the Church to continue pagan worship.
There is no inspired liturgy.
I guess as long as you’re not having Mass at the North or South Pole, it should be do-able. :-)
Being in space might present a challenge, too.
I understand but I am so sick of every time I try to read anything on here to do with the Church I have to read through garbage from people who aren’t Catholic.
I guess if it’s not a caucus thread anymore I won’t bother. I’ll just go read the original article.
I understand. But sometimes we have to leave it to God to separate the wheat from the cockle. See Matthew 13:24-30; Douay-Rheims
However, GIRM 299 (as well as the USSCB Guidelines for church buildings Built of Living Stones which references this article) does state clearly that “[t]he altar should be built apart from the wall, in such a way that it is possible to walk around it easily and that Mass can be celebrated at it facing the people, which is desirable wherever possible.” emphasis mine
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