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"worship and deification of mary [sic]"

Catholics have explained to you patiently and repeatedly the difference between veneration (honor) and worship (adoration) and yet you prove yourself un-teachable.

It reminds me of a conversation I had years ago with a Muslim soccer coach in my son's youth league. The game had been delayed an hour because of threatened thunder storm, and we were just chatting. Somehow the topic of religion came up (I might have said something like, "I think the weather's clearing, thank you Jesus") and he remarked something like, "Oh, you polytheists."

I spent some time explaining how the Trinity isn't three 'gods' but One True God, of one essence, one in Being, three divine Persons, etc. --- and how even his Koran classed Christians with Jews, Abrahamic monotheists, "People of the Book"--- as any Christian will tell him, we believe in One God. We had what I'd hoped was an amiable, and full and free discussion.

When they finally made the announcement that the game could begin in 10 minutes, he ambled back to his team, but not before he remarked, unsmilingly, "Always the same --- full of deceitful bull**** words ---you polytheists!"

I guess there are people who can't learn, and people who won't.

>>"worship and deification of mary [sic]"<,

Catholics have explained to you patiently and repeatedly the difference between veneration (honor) and worship (adoration) and yet you prove yourself un-teachable.

And we have explained patiently and repeatedly how the catholic actions towards Mary are in violation of the prohibition against making and worshiping idols.

Where as we can point to specific Scripture that forbids these activities the catholic cannot point to a specific Scripture that allows the worship of a created being or thing.

We have specific examples in the NT of the apostles/disciples telling others who've bowed before them to get up and not worship them.

The catholic, per catholic writings, is told to place all of their faith and trust in Mary in contrast to the Word which tells us to place all of our trust and faith in Christ and Christ alone. Catholics are also told to rely upon her to answer prayers that Jesus will not or is slow to answer whereas the Word teaches us to pray only to the Father and that He will supply all of our needs.

The catholic in the various apparitions an image claiming to be Mary yet who teaches a different message than that found in the Word. The promises of the apparition at Fatima are illustrative of this.

These apparitions have told the catholic to wear a scapular and if they do they would "be preserved from the eternal flames."

The list can go on and on but it is clear the catholic reliance and worship of Mary is not supported by the Word.

Sometimes I wonder if Revelation 12:4 speaks to the now divided Christian Church and that "His tail swept a third of the stars from the sky, tossing them to the earth" refers to the Protestants.

The idea came to me while reading through the many Protestant vs Catholic threads and Sola Scriptura arguments here and elsewhere.

In those "discussions", it became clear that many Protestants don't/won't see nor accept Mother Mary as the Woman adorned with the Sun, as the New Eve, nor accept any of the many attributes, signs and wonders about her and attributed to her the Catholics and the Orthodox accept, nor do Protestants have a relationship with her as the Catholics and the Orthodox have.

Instead, many Protestants act with skepticism and even hostility to almost all things Mary that the Catholics and the Orthodox seem to consider as being basic to their general understanding.

I know that Satan fosters division and naturally believe that it is Satan who got the Christians to eventually slice and dice Jesus' Church, into the pieces they each like best, while also getting 1/3 of them to break ties with Mother Mary, too.

No way any of that is Jesus' idea. Not that I can see or understand from what I've learned so far. It's the exact opposite!

Catholics have explained to you patiently and repeatedly the difference between veneration (honor) and worship (adoration) and yet you prove yourself un-teachable.

I spent some time explaining how the Trinity isn't three 'gods' but One True God,... I guess there are people who can't learn, and people who won't.

That is an invalid analogy, as one of the arguments for the Trinity is that to Christ are ascribed attributes, glory and "veneration" that only belong to God, but likewise are ascribed to the Mary of Catholicism. If Moses or a Muslim saw such they would just conclude Mary was deity. As said before,

One would have a hard time in Bible times explaining kneeling before a statue and praising the entity it represented in the unseen world, beseeching such for Heavenly help, and making offerings to them, and giving glory and titles and ascribing attributes to such which are never given in Scripture to created beings (except to false gods), including having the uniquely Divine power glory to hear and respond to virtually infinite numbers of prayers individually addressed to them in Heaven from earth.

Which manner of adulation would constitute worship in Scripture, yet Catholics imagine that by playing word games then they can avoid crossing the invisible line between mere "veneration" and worship.

Moses, put down those rocks! I was only engaging in hyper dulia, not adoring her. Can't you tell the difference?

>Words (I found) used for worship in the NT (KJV)

Proskyneō/Proskuneō — a masculine noun meaning to prostrate, almost always in worship. It occurs 60 times, mainly for worship of God, but sometimes for false gods, including images and demonic incarnations, which is idolatry. (Acts 7:43; Rv 9:20; 13:4, 8, 12, 15; 14:9; 16:2)

It is used twice for obeisance before men, once in forbidding a pious man to do so, before Peter no less, (Act 10:25) and another in compelling false brethren to show obeisance before the feet of true brethren. (Rv. 3:9)

Furthermore it is used once in reproving John for trying to worship an angel of Christ, telling him to worship (proskyneō) God instead. (Rv. 22:8,9)

Thus this act of prostration normatively denotes worship, only once being clearly used for less than that, and worship is always the case when proskyneō is used as a volitional activity, or in the context of supernatural beings.

Nowhere is the act of believers bowing down to believers sanctioned, much less bowing down before a statue of them in prayer, praise and adulation, and ascribing to them attributes which are only ascribed to God. And which is blasphemous, and outside of worship of God this manner of prostration and ascription is only seen in pagan worship, which is idolatry.

Proskunētēs — a masculine noun, which occurs just once (John 4:23) and describes those who worship God. Therefore latreia is not the only word that uniquely means worship, contrary to what many Catholics argue.

Sebō/Sebomai — A verb which occurs 10 times, denoting worship of God as well as false gods, and to describe devout persons.

Sebazomai. A verb occurring once (Rm. 1:25) in describing those who worshiped and served false gods.

Latreuō — service of worship. It occurs 21 times, mostly as "serve" in describing the activity of worship of God, and twice for service to false gods. (Acts 7:42; Rm. 1:25: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped [sebazomai (G4573)] and served [latreuō (G1391)] the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

It is never used for service to man, and is what we see Catholics giving to the Mary of Catholicism, to whom they ascribe Divine attributes and functions, and dedicate themselves to her.

Latreia — From latreuō; service of worship. Occurs 5 times as denoting service toward God, not any created being, yet it is corespondent to the dedicatory service of Catholics to their Mary.

Eusebeō — to be pious, reverent as in the only place it occurs in describing worship of unknown God. .(Acts 17:23)

Conclusion: From this brief study we can see that any assurance the Catholics are not engaging in worship in their "hyperdulia" of Mary, crossing the invisible line into latreia, is plainly specious. For just as souls were quite obviously engaging in worship described as proskyneō or latreuō or sebazomai, even if latreia was not used to describe them, so also can Catholics.

While sometimes the words for worship can be used in regards to obeisance toward men, yet as with the words for praise, they are never used in regards to created beings being bowed or prostrated to (much less before representative statues) beings in adulation and praise and prayed to as unseen beings having supernatural abilities in the heavenly realm, including the ability to hear corporate, even mental prayer in Heaven from those on earth, and engaging in making sacrificial offerings to them.

And in Scripture constitutes worship, with such activity and ascriptions being unseen toward anyone but God, and otherwise it belongs in the pagan world.

And thus by engaging in such towards Mary, it is evidenced that many Catholics are materially engaging in worship, or at the least blasphemy (if a difference can be made), even if unawares.

In response some Catholics argue that one cannot engage in worship if that is not intended in the persons heart. However, this is not the case, for one can easily be unaware of what constitutes worship, including of money, and in any case one can deny they are engaging in such, even taking the mark of the Beast but denying it represents worship of him.

Moreover, idolaters are described as being such, not based upon their hearts, but their dedicatory actions and ascriptions.

See link for verses and more, by God's grace. But no doubt being able to speak Greek means that engaging in the manner of "veneration" only given to God or by pagans to false gods, and ascribing attributes that are only ascribed to God or by pagans to false gods, does not constitute worship when Catholics do so toward created beings.