Posted on 05/21/2016 8:38:01 AM PDT by Salvation
Q. Many of our Protestant brethren say that, before Jesus comes, there will be a rapture wherein all the faithful will be taken up, I guess, to meet Him in the sky. When I tell them that the Bible says we will “see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of heaven” (Mt 24:30) and “he will send his angels ... and they will gather his elect from the four winds” (Mt 24:31), and then ask them who will be left to “gather” if everyone has previously been “raptured,” they say it will be the Jews. What is the Church’s teaching on this? Will there even be such a thing as the rapture? I’m confused! Any light you can shed on the subject will be greatly appreciated!
Rich Willette, Springfield, Vt.
A. The notion of rapture (a Latin word that means to be snatched away) is a very novel concept among certain (not all) evangelicals. It is a notion less than 150 years old and finds no real support in the biblical text as you point out. Fundamentally, the theory asserts that before the final tribulations of the last times, faithful Christians will be snatched away. Rapture theorists disagree about the exact moment of the snatching. Some say it will be pre-tribulation, others midway through the tribulations, and some even say post-tribulation.
The root text for evangelicals who hold rapture theory is a text from the First Letter to the Thessalonians: “Indeed. we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore, console one another with these words” (4:15-18).
The context is the second coming of Christ. There are not two second comings taught in Scripture, but rapture theory posits two — the one described in First Thessalonians and another one, some 1,000 years later. Note, too, that in First Thessalonians there is no mention of some people being left behind. There is no mention of a 1,000-year reign. Nor does St. Paul indicate that what he is describing here is a different coming of Christ, distinct from other texts in the Gospel wherein Christ describes His own second coming.
Thus we are left with a text that simply does not support what rapture theorists say. They further strive to unnaturally stitch this account with other texts in the Book of Revelation. The result is a highly debatable account of the last days that even rapture theorists hotly debate in terms of the details. The whole enterprise amounts to an attempt to shoehorn biblical passages into rapture theory that more clearly call it into question. To say the “elect” are merely the Jews is speculative at best and fanciful and contrived at worst.
As for Catholic teaching on these matters, the Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes it as follows: “Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers [see Lk 18:8; Mt 24:12]. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the ‘mystery of iniquity’ in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh. [see 2 Thes 2:4-12; 1 Thes 5:2-3; 2 Jn 7; 1 Jn 2:18-22]” (No. 675).
kerping
I think nothing is affirmed or debunked. We won’t know until it happens. So, when folks say they are ‘pan-millennial’, that describes me.
I like to know each of the ideas put forward by faithful men whose lives testify to their faith in Jesus Christ.
After all, if it goes some direction other than the one that is my favorite, I’d like to know if it is still tracking with some of the others.
Sort of like having a candidate drop out of the race, and then picking a new favorite. I know that’s simplistic, but it works for me.
And the people left behind can’t take care of any children who are left? Or animals?
FWIW, most people holding to the rapture also believe that the children will be taken.
And who’s going to throw the cut off switches for dangerous machines? And don’t they have them anyway?
Co-pilots can’t take care of flying a plane if the pilot is taken?
Bunkers of food? There’ll be whole houses filled with food and clothes free for the taking by those left behind. Or did you miss that part of my post when I said it before.
Ealgeone, I just looked up and read the online Catholic Encyclopedia entry about the Assumption, and it does *not*, as you claim, “admit” that there is “no scriptural support” for the Assumption. (You wrote “for the immaculate conception,” but I figure you must mean the Assumption because that’s what we were talking about.)
I’m surprised you would make such a claim, when any FReepers with five minutes can look it up themselves and see that no such “admission” is made.
It offers no survey of Scriptural types, images and themes, no theological or liturgical analysis, no description or discussion of the Dormition from a mystical or dogmatic Orthodox or Byzantine point of view, and, being published decades before Munificentissimus Deus, does not have a discussion of that either.
In short, you’re looking at the wrong article, ealgeone. This is not an in-depth study dealing with scripture or exegesis at all. It is basicly limited to a fast overview of the observance of the feast.
“And the people left behind can’t take care of any children who are left? Or animals?”
It’s a lot of animals and children, right? In any case, it’s seems like it is making trouble for people that are going to have enough on their plate. Also in a general state of chaos or worse, if the tribulation is going on.
“FWIW, most people holding to the rapture also believe that the children will be taken.”
Right, I understand there are differing opinions on this. What would you say the age is when you might not be raptured? Also, what about people conceived post-rapture?
“And who’s going to throw the cut off switches for dangerous machines? And don’t they have them anyway?”
They have them on cars? I would assume they would be things like car seats not having weight on them and so on, like for some riding mowers.
“Co-pilots can’t take care of flying a plane if the pilot is taken?”
What if they are both raptured, what if it a single pilot plane and so on. Why put people in that danger?
“Bunkers of food? There’ll be whole houses filled with food and clothes free for the taking by those left behind. Or did you miss that part of my post when I said it before.”
I thought there would be lot of chaos and wars and stuff? Or is that wrong? In any case, having huge stores of supplies around for something you are certain is going to eventually happen in order to help the unfortunate isn’t crazy. I mean it’s considerate and something Christians would do, at least it seems to me.
Freegards
No. I was referring to the immaculate conception.
Oh. The discussion kind of jumped the track, then, since this whole thread starting from the top, is about Rapture/Assumption.
Good night and God bless.
As noted before the catholic worship and deification of mary is not supported by the Word and in fact, goes against the Word.
Yep been there, I just used what my denomination taught and what I was taught in school, a pre-trib rapture hodgepodge of half scriptures, and multi returns of Jesus . Then I studied the Word on it and it was clear it was not what the Word taught.
Won’t do that now with any teaching, the Holy Spirit teaches us by the Word and there is no confusion and half baked doctrines. Tithing is another one that is false that i just believed because i respected those teaching it. They were still wrong.
Thanks, I don’t get how anyone can read Matt 24:29-31 and speak of a pre-trib rapture, when it states after the tribulation.
Do you even understand what the tribulation is all about?
It’s God’s judgment on unbelievers.
It’s not a picnic, nor is it the responsibility of believers to make sure they’re taken care of after the rapture happens.
Our job is to present the gospel to them so they are saved and don’t have to go through the tribulation.
But if they choose to reject, it’s on their heads.
Why are you demanding Christians prepare for the rapture to take care of those left behind? Why are you putting that burden on them.
You are postulating all kinds of scenarios which may or may not happen and I am not interested in hypotheticals nor wasting my time on any of the improbable scenarios you are concocting.
They can have whatever is in my house.
Put it this way.
If you are a Christian and feel that strongly about doing such a thing, then go ahead and do it.
If you're not a Christian, then your opinion is worth exactly nothing.
I am constantly amazed as how many non-beleivers know exactly how Christians should be acting and what they should be doing, even things that God Himself never demands of His children.
Have a good night.
Hint?
You have offered nothing in your reply to reply to. *sigh*
Hint: do a bible search on “elect” as written to early gentile church in non-Jewish lands.
“Another suggestion traces the influence to a Jesuit priest, Manuel Lacunza (1731-1801), who was born in Chile but came to Italy in 1767 where he would spend the rest of his life. Posing as a converted Jew (under the pseudonym Juan Josafat Ben Ezra), he wrote, in Spanish, a large apocalyptic work entitled The Coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty. The book appeared first in 1811, 10 years after his death. http://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac1005.asp
Another influence is said to be a Jesuit priest named Francisco Ribera (1537–1591) was a Spanish Jesuit theologian, identified with the Futurist Christian eschatological view.
“In the Dictionary of Premillennial Theology (1997) it is said that Ribera was an Augustinian amillennialist, who may have revived a “mild” form of futurism.[1] His interpretation was then followed by Robert Bellarmine and Thomas Malvenda.[2]
Thomas Brightman, in particular, writing in the early 17th century as an English Protestant, contested Ribera’s views. He argued that the Catholic use of the Vulgate had withheld commentary from the Book of Revelation, and then provided an interpretation avoiding the connection with the Papacy put forward in the historicist point of view.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Lacunza
Ribera “in the days of the Reformation, first taught that all the events in the book of Revelation were to take place literally during the three and a half years reign of the antichrist way down at the end of the age.” http://www.theologue.org/Theory-JPEby.html (Protestant source, which gives the most lengthy explanation).
I myself also see the “rapture”- which term is derived from the text of the Latin Vulgate of 1 Thess. 4:17—”we will be caught up,” [Latin: rapiemur]) - as being the first resurrection, (Rv. 20:5,6) which is only for the saved, “the resurrection of life, (Jn. 5:29a), the “resurrection of the just,” on the “day of the Lord, in which all the bodies of believers will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, and go on with Him to the battle of Armageddon.
“For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. “ (1 Thessalonians 4:14)
“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. “ (1 Thessalonians 4:17)
“And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. “ (Jude 14-15)
Those who effectually believe on the Lord Jesus now have eternal life life, and if they die in the Lord they shall go to be with the Lord, (2Cor. 5:6-8; Phil. 1:23; 1Thes. 4:17) but their rewards or loss thereof are not given out until that “day of the Lord.”
Believers will be rewarded for their good works, (Lk. 14:14; cf. 1Cor. 4:5; Acts 24:15) in distinction to “the resurrection of damnation” (Jn. 5:29b) which evidently occurs 1,000 years after, (Rv. 20:5) and in which believers will be part of the jury in the judgement of men and angels.
“Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. “ (1 Corinthians 3:13)
“Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, “ (2 Thessalonians 2:1)
And on that “day” every believer shall “receive his own reward according to his own labour,” (1Cor. 3::8) including suffering loss of rewards:
“Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. “ (1 Corinthians 4:5)
And will sit with Him in judgment of men and of angels:
“Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? “ (1 Corinthians 6:3)
Those who die in their sins shall not see life but the wrath of God abideth upon them, yet their exact degree of punishment is not meted out until the Great White Throne judgment.
The “great and notable day of the Lord” ‘ Acts 2:20) culminates in the Great White Throne judgment in which the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, and whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire, (Rv. 20:11-5) with their degree of punishment being determined in accordance with how much light and grace was given. (Lk. 10:12-13; 12:47,48)
“Why are you demanding Christians prepare for the rapture to take care of those left behind? Why are you putting that burden on them.”
Because if I believed the rapture and thought I was going to be raptured, I would not want to put others at risk by my rapture. I guess I care about the unsaved or whatever and don’t want to make it harder for them. I consider this a Christian sentiment.
Freegards
And miss out on these PROMISES??
"The Most Holy Virgin in these last times in which we live has given a new efficacy to the recitation of the Rosary to such an extent that there is no problem,
no matter how difficult it is, wheter temporal or above all spiritual, in the personal life of each one of us, of our families...that cannot be solved by the Rosary.
There is no problem, I tell you, no matter how difficult it is, that we cannot resolve by the prayer of the Holy Rosary."
Sister Lucia dos Santos
(Given to St. Dominic and Blessed Alan de la Roche)
| 1 | Whoever shall faithfully serve me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall receive powerful graces. |
| 2. | I promise my special protection and the greatest graces to all those who shall recite the Rosary. |
| 3. | The Rosary shall be a powerful armor against hell, it will destroy vice, decrease sin, and defeat heresies |
| 4. | It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the hearts of people from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means. |
| 5. | The soul which recommends itself to me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall not perish. |
| 6. | Whoever shall recite the Rosary devoutly, applying Himself to the consideration of its Sacred Mysteries shall never be conquered by misfortune. God will not chastise Him in His justice, he shall not perish by an unprovided death; if he be just, he shall remain in the grace of God, and become worthy of eternal life. |
| 7. | Whoever shall have a true devotion for the Rosary shall not die without the Sacraments of the Church. |
| 8. | Those who are faithful to recite the Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plentitude of His graces; at the moment of death they shall participate in the merits of the Saints in Paradise. |
| 9. | I shall deliver from purgatory those who have been devoted to the Rosary. |
| 10. | The faithful children of the Rosary shall merit a high degree of glory in Heaven. |
| 11. | You shall obtain all you ask of me by the recitation of the Rosary. |
| 12. | All those who propagate the Holy Rosary shall be aided by me in their necessities. |
| 13. | I have obtained from my Divine Son that all the advocates of the Rosary shall have for intercessors the entire celestial court during their life and at the hour of death |
| 14. | All who recite the Rosary are my children, and brothers and sisters of my only Son, Jesus Christ. |
| 15. | Devotion of my Rosary is a great sign of predestination. |
“If you are a Christian and feel that strongly about doing such a thing, then go ahead and do it.
If you’re not a Christian, then your opinion is worth exactly nothing.”
I don’t believe in the rapture. I am a Christian.
“I am constantly amazed as how many non-beleivers know exactly how Christians should be acting and what they should be doing, even things that God Himself never demands of His children.”
I think it’s weird that the ones that believe in the rapture don’t seem to consider how to help those that aren’t going to be raptured, or think it’s no big deal or whatever. It is surprising to me that you find it amazing.
Freegards
Yes after the tribulation ...read Matt 24.
But thank you for missing the very thing being refuted in this thread.
You GUESS?
Heck; it's IN THE BOOK that Rome assembled!
I shudda read ahead.
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