Posted on 05/21/2016 8:38:01 AM PDT by Salvation
Q. Many of our Protestant brethren say that, before Jesus comes, there will be a rapture wherein all the faithful will be taken up, I guess, to meet Him in the sky. When I tell them that the Bible says we will “see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of heaven” (Mt 24:30) and “he will send his angels ... and they will gather his elect from the four winds” (Mt 24:31), and then ask them who will be left to “gather” if everyone has previously been “raptured,” they say it will be the Jews. What is the Church’s teaching on this? Will there even be such a thing as the rapture? I’m confused! Any light you can shed on the subject will be greatly appreciated!
Rich Willette, Springfield, Vt.
A. The notion of rapture (a Latin word that means to be snatched away) is a very novel concept among certain (not all) evangelicals. It is a notion less than 150 years old and finds no real support in the biblical text as you point out. Fundamentally, the theory asserts that before the final tribulations of the last times, faithful Christians will be snatched away. Rapture theorists disagree about the exact moment of the snatching. Some say it will be pre-tribulation, others midway through the tribulations, and some even say post-tribulation.
The root text for evangelicals who hold rapture theory is a text from the First Letter to the Thessalonians: “Indeed. we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore, console one another with these words” (4:15-18).
The context is the second coming of Christ. There are not two second comings taught in Scripture, but rapture theory posits two — the one described in First Thessalonians and another one, some 1,000 years later. Note, too, that in First Thessalonians there is no mention of some people being left behind. There is no mention of a 1,000-year reign. Nor does St. Paul indicate that what he is describing here is a different coming of Christ, distinct from other texts in the Gospel wherein Christ describes His own second coming.
Thus we are left with a text that simply does not support what rapture theorists say. They further strive to unnaturally stitch this account with other texts in the Book of Revelation. The result is a highly debatable account of the last days that even rapture theorists hotly debate in terms of the details. The whole enterprise amounts to an attempt to shoehorn biblical passages into rapture theory that more clearly call it into question. To say the “elect” are merely the Jews is speculative at best and fanciful and contrived at worst.
As for Catholic teaching on these matters, the Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes it as follows: “Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers [see Lk 18:8; Mt 24:12]. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the ‘mystery of iniquity’ in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh. [see 2 Thes 2:4-12; 1 Thes 5:2-3; 2 Jn 7; 1 Jn 2:18-22]” (No. 675).
You just described catholicism.
The idea came to me while reading through the many Protestant vs Catholic threads and Sola Scriptura arguments here and elsewhere.
In those "discussions", it became clear that many Protestants don't/won't see nor accept Mother Mary as the Woman adorned with the Sun, as the New Eve, nor accept any of the many attributes, signs and wonders about her and attributed to her the Catholics and the Orthodox accept, nor do Protestants have a relationship with her as the Catholics and the Orthodox have.
Instead, many Protestants act with skepticism and even hostility to almost all things Mary that the Catholics and the Orthodox seem to consider as being basic to their general understanding.
I know that Satan fosters division and naturally believe that it is Satan who got the Christians to eventually slice and dice Jesus' Church, into the pieces they each like best, while also getting 1/3 of them to break ties with Mother Mary, too.
No way any of that is Jesus' idea. Not that I can see or understand from what I've learned so far. It's the exact opposite!
Not Scripturally, but expecting to do so would better prepare them for such.
Anything that takes away from Christ is wrong.
The catholic may think they are serving Christ yet they worship Mary.
GBA,
You will find the truth in the section titled “The Good News in Six Words”
It is a basic distillation of the way to eternal life and right relationship with your creator.
Blessings to you in your journey.
Rather than make point-by-point corrections: if there are readers and lurkers who aren't bored to tears, already, by these relentless volleys, and if you want to get some accurate explanation of what Catholics believe, and not what some outré critic imagines we believe, you can google:
"Mrs Don-o" adoration veneration
"Mrs Don-o" bow prostration
"Mrs Don-o" custom honor
...or various other keywords, being sure "Mrs. Don-o" is in quotes, and behold, there it all is, having achieved what passes for catechetical cyber-immortality.
Thanks for the opportunity, ealgeone.
You, I will, where I can, honor: but certainly not adore.
Finally something we can agree on! Of course Matthew 24 does not mention the rapture, nor does Jesus mention it anywhere else. Funny how He never mentioned the axiomatic Article of Faith which is the cornerstone of Dispensationalism? If the rapture was such an important doctrine (note your extreme exertions on this board to defend it), why pray tell did not our Lord speak of it?
As for the Scofield Reference Bible, are you citing it as an unquestionable authority? My first bible was a Scofield Reference Bible (1909 edition), and I used it for many years. However, though Scofield was solid on most biblical teachings, he was a proponent of Dispensationalism, and with regards to eschatology his notes are often unsupportable.
As an observer, I've seen how some Catholics have chosen to focus intensely on Mary, some perhaps in excess according to my current thinking and understanding.
And, I also suppose that there are some Catholics who "worship" Mary to a degree that exceeds that for the Son, or even excludes Him altogether, but I don't think that's anything that's been given to me to worry about.
I'm still at the seeker/obsever/data taker stage and Proverbs 3:5-6 says to
"Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;This is good to know in a "learn it, live it, love it" kind of way, because, if I've learned anything as a seeker/observer/data taker so far, it's exactly like Obi-Wan Kenobi says:
in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight."
"You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."Amen, bro. Word up to your Mother.
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>> “And what’s happening to Christians under ISIS rule - do they believe they’re going through the Tribulation?” <<
They are definitely going through tribulation, but not through Satan’s 3.5 year Tribulation of the saints that will occur when he is soon cast out of the presence of Yehova, and down to Earth.
The chief difference is the Beast’s rule has not yet been set up, and his his license to buy and sell has not been put in place.
Yehova has promised to protect those that keep his commandments and follow his Son, in a special place that he will provide in the desert.
That place has not yet been provided either. That will be after the Psalm 83 war is over.
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You put your finger on what some are trying to do on this forum: interpreting Scripture in the light of their dogmatic presumption of a secret rapture, a novel idea unknown in Church history until the 19th century.
Yes it is his second coming. We need to stop using this term rapture. We are caught to him in the air as he returns to earth.
Yes, believers being "caught up together with Him in the air" is part of the great end-time event known as the Second Coming of Christ, and has been so understood throughout Church history.
Dear verga, that is exactly the kind of global generalization I would urge us all to avoid.
For one thing, there are any number of fine Protestant brethren, not to mention many Orthodox brethren, and even one Hindu (of the sistren variety), who when they agree with us, agree guilelessly, and when they disagree, do so in a firm but amicable manner, trying to be accurate and not dealing in stereotypes and moral libels.
For another thing, some of our "sedes" --- a few, not all --- count with the worst of the anti-papist pugilists, and are admonished for it by honest Protestants.
A recent example: a sede-who-shall-not-be-named asserted that Pope Benedict XVI didn't believe in the Resurrection of Our Lord. FReeper Daniel1212 called him on it, and said "Asserting something like Pope Benedict didn't believe in the Resurrection seems pretty absurd to me. "
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3431022/posts?page=132#132 Daniel1212 certainly opposes distinctive Catholic doctrines, but endeavors to do so, I think, without misrepresentation and without snide-issimus personalis.
:o)
[au contraire:] of the 15 uses of the word "tribulation" in the NT, 10 times refers to tribulation of the church, 4 times to the end time, and once (!) to the world! Perhaps you should ponder John 16:33. "In this world, you will have tribulation..."
Good point. You just put the lie to a major teaching of pre-trib rapture proponents, that tribulation is ONLY for the world. Despite the plain words of our Lord.
Just a thought.
As for Christian sectarianism: I think it is very sad. It is tearing the Body of Christ apart.
For the lurkers and readers out there.
>>Where as we can point to specific Scripture that forbids these activities the catholic cannot point to a specific Scripture that allows the worship of a created being or thing.<<
Let all those be ashamed who serve graven images, Who boast themselves of idols; Worship Him, all you gods. Psalms 97:7
>>We have specific examples in the NT of the apostles/disciples telling others who've bowed before them to get up and not worship them. <<
25When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him. 26But Peter raised him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am just a man.” Acts 10:25-26
8I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9But he said to me, “Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.” Revelation 22:8-9
>>The catholic, per catholic writings, is told to place all of their faith and trust in Mary in contrast to the Word which tells us to place all of our trust and faith in Christ and Christ alone.<<
In this shrine, so dear to the heart of Catholics in your country, it is a message of hope among spiritual and physical tribulations which the Mother of the Lord gave to her children in 1798, announcing to them: "Have trust, be willing to suffer hardship and sorrow. I have already granted your prayers. Henceforth all those who come to pray to me in this spot will see their wishes fulfilled. ". Pope John Paul II to Cardinal Paul Joseph Pham Dinh Tung Archbishop of Ha Noi President of the Episcopal Conference of Viet Nam. https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=480
>>The catholic in the various apparitions an image claiming to be Mary yet who teaches a different message than that found in the Word. The promises of the apparition at Fatima are illustrative of this.
"Finally, devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, our Most Holy Mother, consists in considering Her as the seat of mercy, of goodness and of pardon, and as the sure door of entering Heaven."http://www.gotquestions.org/lady-fatima.html
>>These apparitions have told the catholic to wear a scapular and if they do they would "be preserved from the eternal flames." <<
The Blessed Virgin of Mount Carmel has promised to save those who wear the scapular from the fires of hell; She will also shorten their stay in purgatory if they should pass from this world still owing some debt of punishment. This promise is found in a Bull of Pope John XXII. The Blessed Virgin appeared to him and, speaking of those who wear the Brown Scapular, said, “I, the Mother of Grace, shall descend on the Saturday after their death and whomsoever I shall find in purgatory I shall free so that I may lead them to the holy mountain of life everlasting.”
The Blessed Virgin assigned certain conditions which must be fulfilled:
Wear the Brown Scapular continuously.
Observe chastity according to one’s state in life (married/single).
Recite daily the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin OR Observe the fasts of the Church together with abstaining from meat on Wednesdays and Saturdays OR With permission of a priest, say five decades of Our Lady’s Most Holy Rosary OR With permission of a priest, substitute some other good work. http://www.sistersofcarmel.com/brown-scapular-information.php
This is just the tip of the iceberg on the false teachings of Mary by the roman catholic church. Trust me....there's plenty more.
Prov 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.
1 Cor 2:7-8 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
I’ve heard pretty much all the arguments for a pre-mid-post Tribulation and as far as I’m concerned it just doesn’t matter; I can take the same scripture verses that pre-Trib people use to show that it’s a post Trip coming. It is >that< He comes not >when< He comes. My salvation doesn’t depend on it.
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The first people we know of that had been told there had already been a secret rapture were the Thessalonians.
Paul explained to them that there had to be a moral/spiritual “falling away” first, and the man of sin must also first be revealed, before anyone would be raptured.
Since those things stand in the way, Yeshua’s return to gather us is not imminent.
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“Stars” usually represent angels.
The 1/3 in this case are those that chose to follow Satan in his rebellion.
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The actual second coming is 15 days after his gathering of his bride. That is represented in the 15 days between Yom Teruah, and Succot.
That is why he gave us his feasts, or “Appointed Times.” So that we would know his plan well in advance, and be ready. That is what Rev. 3:3 is pointing out.
For those that refuse to watch (IOW keep his appointed times) he will come in a complete surprise, “as a thief.”
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