Don’t Apologize for Apologetics

Aletelia ^ | November 11, 2015 | FR DWIGHT LONGENECKER

[metmom]

You must have never met the Catholics I grew up with and worked with.

And the more dedicated they were, the nastier they were.

The ones who were Knights of Columbus were nastiest of all.

[NYer]

Excellent article. Note it begins with this statement:

Catholics indeed believe that the death of Jesus Christ is all sufficient for the salvation of our sins.

The article is worth reading in its entirety and on its merits rather than cherry picking words or phrases out of context. Is there any evidence in history that Mary has brought souls (i.e. assisted in their salvation) to her Son? Yes. Our Lady came to offer faith, hope and consolation to the oppressed natives of Mexico and to reconcile them with their Spanish rulers. She put an end to the bloody human sacrifice of the Aztecs and converted ten million natives in the next 10 years! Ref. Does this make Mary equal to her Son? No. Is Mary Co-Redemptrix a dogma of the Catholic Church? No.

For a more thorough understanding of Mary's role , Mary: Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate

[verga]

The7y have been told the truth repeatedly over a number of years. They fail to realize that spreading / repeating their lies makes EVERYTHING they say suspect.
It also presents a bad picture of the rest of protestantism which does have some very nice good Christian people.

[kinsman redeemer]

Yes. That's why there's a discussion.

To you, does "dogma" mean you all agree? Because the opening line of the article conflicts with statement made in this Forum and with official and unofficial statements made by the Holy Roman Catholic Church.

There are all kinds of problems with the notion that Mary "assisted" with anyone's salvation. By "problems", I mean Biblical objections- that have been given in this Forum ad nauseam.

As a Bible-believing Christian, I would question the authenticity of those tales. Those apparitions have also been described, discussed, and dismissed ad nauseam.

[kinsman redeemer]

Oh! I forgot to mention that you provided a broken link.

Verga, I read you reply (#43). There's no need to keep playing, your king cannot escape.

[ealgeone]

And yet Catholicism begins to modify that extensively as posted to you with the statement from the pope saying we can only come to Christ through Mary....and there were many more where that came from. Mixing truth with a little lie is a hallmark of false teaching.

And now you reach back to Guadalupe which we have already hashed out as being a false apparition. You will recall the vision requested a chapel built in its honor. The Mary of the Bible would not request that. If you believe these apparitions are true you must be wearing your scapular today to keep you from the eternal fire as told by the apparition.

Your popes have already declared "Mary" as co-redemtrix, mediatrix and advocate.

But I guess that's one of those things catholics can accept or reject....in other words....your own pope.

[daniel1212]

Been ..there

The response is to invoke so-called great intellects who converted, as if that is consistent with how the church began.

The officers answered, Never man spake like this man. Then answered them the Pharisees, Are ye also deceived? Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him? But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed. (John 7:46-49)

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, (Romans 1:22)

Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus. (Acts 4:13)

And they called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus. (Acts 4:18)

Which is what many RCs, sympathizers and liberals yet want to do with us today.

[Iscool]

Not from an elitist religion that presumes a monopoly on Jesus or by sole ownership of the identity of Christian.

Excellent description of the Catholic faith. Thanks for posting it!

Yes, but it has nothing to do with the Christian Faith taught in the scriptures...

Catholicanity worships a piece of bread as the same God Izlam worships in a black moon rock while Christianity worships a risen Lord and Savior (CCC 841)...

[kinsman redeemer]

Seems like Catholics have great latitude to believe what they wish in regard to salvation. The very thing they criticize and condemn non-Catholics for.

I note NYer's use of the word "dogma" ("Is Mary Co-Redemptrix a dogma of the Catholic Church? No.") and I am fascinated by the idea that Roman Catholics treat the doctrine of eternal security like a third ring matter (where I find matters of practice and preference such as worship music style.) To me, the doctrine of salvation is a matter of central concern and significant importance. It is in the center of orthodoxy and not subject to individual preference.

This seems to be a matter that any practicing Roman Catholic should consider - because there is after all an eternal impact on what (and Whom) they decide to believe.

But I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed, and I am convinced that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me. (2 Tim 1:12b)

[ealgeone]

He never got it off the back row.

[kinsman redeemer]

Fool’s Mate, I’d say.

[vladimir998]

“Not too condescending, is he?”

Not condescending at all on that point.

[daniel1212]

Nothing comes to us except through the mediation of Mary, for such is the will of God. Thus, just as no man goes to the Father but by the Son, so likewise no one goes to Christ except through His Mother...O Mother of God, attains salvation except through thee!

I could not find a precise reference for that Leo XIII quotes, but in his encyclical "Adiutricemhe' affirms,

none, O Mother of God, attains salvation except through thee; none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee." - http://w2.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_05091895_adiutricem.html

And for which he references Germanus of Constantinople (Patriarch of Constantinople 715-730) in Orat. II, in Dormitione B.M.V.

Whom your source (among many other outrageous statements which abundantly substantiates as being taught what a RC calls erroneous statement) also quotes as saying,

here is no one, O most holy Mary, who can know God except through thee; no one who can be saved or redeemed but through thee, O Mother of God!

In the same encyclical (Adiutricem), which RCs are to render assent of mind and will to, he provides more information which the Holy Spirit utterly do not include, intimate, infer, or in any ways teach:

It is no exaggeration to say that it is due chiefly to her leadership and help that the wisdom and teachings of the Gospel spread so rapidly to all the nations...

Meaning her invisible, unrecorded leadership, while the Holy Spirit abundantly testifies to the apostolic (real, not Roman: 2Cor. 6:4-10) leadership of the NT church Thus once again we see papal teaching on the invisible church, one which claims many fundamental and lesser aspects which simply are not seen in the life of the church in Scripture, despite the egregious extrapolative attempts of RCs to wrest support from Scripture for such, but which actually comes from her amorphous body of tradition, out of which she channels binding beliefs. Which the Assumption is a prime example of.

[ealgeone]

I thought about that also. But not being sure if everyone on this board understood chess and certain terms associated with the game, I didn’t want someone crying to the mods that we were calling people fools. :)

[redleghunter]

For a more thorough understanding of Mary's role , Mary: Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate

I am quite stunned with these titles. They imply Christ and the Holy Spirit require assistance with Salvation.

"Advocate" is only used for the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ in the NT Scriptures.

[kinsman redeemer]

Did the link work for you? I tried to see it using 3 different devices.

Am I not logged on?

[boatbums]

Perhaps not to those who imagine their church holds the gospel of the grace of God hostage. For those of us who have been shown the truth, believed on the savior, have been born again and indwelt and sealed with the Holy Spirit, however, it is quite condescending and elitest. You don’t mind if I disagree with you, do you? I have that right, do I not?

[detective]

I was talking about in real life, not on religious forums.

[detective]

“You must have never met the Catholics I grew up with and worked with.

And the more dedicated they were, the nastier they were.”

You are right. I never met the Catholics you grew up with.

I am very active in my parish and meet with real life Catholics every day at work etc.

While they are not perfect, none of them are nasty or obnoxious. Some are better than others but all are considerate and I’ve never heard them argue about religion.

[vladimir998]

“Perhaps not to those who imagine their church holds the gospel of the grace of God hostage.”

I salute you for using the right word: “imagine”.

“For those of us who have been shown the truth, believed on the savior, have been born again and indwelt and sealed with the Holy Spirit, however, it is quite condescending and elitest.”

“For those of us...”? You mean it has only happened to people like you (i.e. not Catholics)? Who is being elitist now? Notice I don’t deny - or even imply as you just did - that Protestants do NOT have faith in Christ or the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. There is just one Church founded by Christ and some Protestant sect started in 1520, or 1602, or 1845, or 1972, or last week.

“You don’t mind if I disagree with you, do you?”

Nope.

“I have that right, do I not?”

With me, in a civil society, yes. With God, on anything, no. You’ve chosen.