Purgatory is Based on a Promise of Jesus

Archdiocese of Washington ^ | 11-01-15 | Msgr. Charles Pope

[Salvation]

Purgatory is Based on a Promise of Jesus’

Msgr. Charles Pope • November 1, 2015 •

All Souls’ Day by Jakub Schikaneder, 1888

I have blogged before on Purgatory. Here is a link to one of those blogs: Purgatory – Biblical and Reasonable. I have also written more extensively on its biblical roots here: PDF Document on Purgatory.

On this Feast of All Souls, I want to reflect on Purgatory as the necessary result of a promise. Many people think of Purgatory primarily in terms of punishment, but it is also important to consider it in terms of promise, purity, and perfection. Some of our deceased brethren are having the promises made to them perfected in Purgatory. In the month of November we are especially committed to praying for them and we know by faith that our prayers are of benefit to them.

What is the promise that points to Purgatory? Simply stated, Jesus made the promise in Matthew 5:48: You, therefore, must be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect. In this promise is an astonishing declaration of our dignity. We are to share in the very nature and perfection of God. This is our dignity: we are called to reflect and possess the very glory and perfection of God.

St. Catherine of Siena was gifted by the Lord to see a heavenly soul in the state of grace. Her account of it is related in her Dialogue, and is summarized in the Sunday School Teacher’s Explanation of the Baltimore Catechism:

The Soul in the State of Grace– Catherine of Siena was permitted by God to see the beauty of a soul in the state of grace. It was so beautiful that she could not look on it; the brightness of that soul dazzled her. Blessed Raymond, her confessor, asked her to describe to him, as far as she was able, the beauty of the soul she had seen. St. Catherine thought of the sweet light of that morning, and of the beautiful colors of the rainbow, but that soul was far more beautiful. She remembered the dazzling beams of the noonday sun, but the light which beamed from that soul was far brighter. She thought of the pure whiteness of the lily and of the fresh snow, but that is only an earthly whiteness. The soul she had seen was bright with the whiteness of Heaven, such as there is not to be found on earth. ” My father,” she answered. “I cannot find anything in this world that can give you the smallest idea of what I have seen. Oh, if you could but see the beauty of a soul in the state of grace, you would sacrifice your life a thousand times for its salvation. I asked the angel who was with me what had made that soul so beautiful, and he answered me, “It is the image and likeness of God in that soul, and the Divine Grace which made it so beautiful.” [1].

Yes, this is our dignity and final destiny if we are faithful to God.

So, I ask you, “Are you there yet?” God has made you a promise. But what if that promise has not yet been fulfilled and you were to die today, without the divine perfection you have been promised having been completed? I can only speak for myself and say that if I were to die today, though I am not aware of any mortal sin, I also know that I am not perfect. I am not even close to being humanly perfect, let alone having the perfection of our heavenly Father!

But Jesus made me a promise: You must be perfect as the heavenly Father is perfect. And the last time I checked, Jesus is a promise keeper! St. Paul says, May God who has begun a good work in you bring it to completion (Phil 1:6). Hence, if I were to die today, Jesus would need to complete a work that He has begun in me. By God’s grace, I have come a mighty long way. But I also have a long way to go. God is very holy and His perfection is beyond imagining.

Yes, there are many things in us that need purging: sin, attachment to sin, clinging to worldly things, and those rough edges to our personality. Likewise most of us carry with us hurts, regrets, sorrows, and disappointments. We cannot take any of this with us to Heaven. If we did, it wouldn’t be Heaven. So the Lord, who is faithful to His promise, will purge all of this from us. The Book of Revelation speaks of Jesus ministering to the dead in that he will wipe every tear from their eyes (Rev 21:4). 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 speaks of us as passing through fire in order that our works be tested so that what is good may be purified and what is worldly may be burned away. And Job said, But he knows the way that I take; and when he has tested me, I will come forth as pure gold (Job 23:10).

Purgatory has to be—gold, pure gold; refined, perfect, pure gold. Purgatory has to be, if God’s promises are to hold.

Catholic theology has always taken seriously God’s promise that we would actually be perfect as the Father is perfect. The righteousness is Jesus’ righteousness, but it actually transforms us and changes us completely in the way that St. Catherine describes. It is a real righteousness, not merely imputed, not merely declared of us by inference. It is not an alien justice, but a personal justice by the grace of God.

Esse quam videri – Purgatory makes sense because the perfection promised to us is real: esse quam videri (to be rather than to seem). We must actually be purged of the last vestiges of imperfection, worldliness, sin, and sorrow. Having been made perfect by the grace of God, we are able to enter Heaven, of which Scripture says, Nothing impure will ever enter it (Rev 21:27). And again, you have approached Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and countless angels in festal gathering, and the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, and God the judge of all, and the souls of the just made perfect (Heb 12:22-23).

How could it be anything less? Indeed, the souls of the just made perfect. How could it be anything less if Jesus died to accomplish it for us? Purgatory makes sense based on Jesus’ promise and on the power of His blood to accomplish complete and total perfection for us. This is our dignity; this is our destiny. Purgatory is about promises, not mere punishment. There’s an old Gospel hymn that I referenced in yesterday’s blog for the Feast of All Saints that says, “O Lord I’m running, trying to make a hundred. Ninety-nine and a half won’t do!”

That’s right, ninety-nine and a half won’t do. Nothing less than a hundred is possible because we have Jesus’ promise and the wonderful working power of the precious Blood of the Lamb. For most, if not all of us, Purgatory has to be.

[af_vet_1981]

No. We use the Greek manuscripts, although not the translations of them.

You do not use the same Greek manuscripts that were used when the Sola Scriptura doctrine was devised and have abandoned those used to produce the Authorized Version of the scriptures (KJV). Therefore the Protestant Reformation did not really have the same Bible that it is using now. Its sole source of truth is evolving.

[af_vet_1981]

I don't see a contradiction of the Byzantine vs. Alexandrian primary texts.

This is an (incomplete) list of major textual variants in the New Testament, with a focus on differences between categories of New Testament manuscript.
1. The Textus Receptus (Latin: "received text") is the name subsequently given to the succession of printed Greek texts of the New Testament which was first collated by Desiderius Erasmus in the 16th century. It constituted the translation base for the translation of the New Testament into English by William Tyndale, the King James Version, and most other Reformation-era New Testament translations throughout Western and Central Europe.
2. The Majority Text represents the Byzantine text-type, which was used in Eastern Greek speaking churches and was dominant from the late middle ages onwards. It is similar to the Textus Receptus.
3. The modern critical text (e.g. Novum Testamentum Graece) is close to the Alexandrian text-type, which accounts for some of the earliest New Testament manuscripts; it stands behind most modern English translations of the New Testament including the American Standard Version, New International Version, Revised Standard Version, New Revised Standard Version, New American Standard Bible and English Standard Version.

...


Rom 8:1

MT: There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
CT: There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.

Mr Rogers NEVER made a claim reference Christians committing mortal sins getting a free ride on such sins. He pointed out in one post the entirety of Romans 8 where Paul tells the Roman church "whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." Sounds like a promise.

I thought it was clear that he claimed once justified a person could not be condemned no matter what that person did afterward. Do you hold differntly, like the Catholics/Orthodox ?

[af_vet_1981]

Furthermore, if you want to force that prohibition to cover all oaths, in violation of the context, then you must find Paul guilty if sinning while writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit:

Precisely, just like the use by the Apostle Paul of the spiritual father/son model ...

[daniel1212]

What is the promise that points to Purgatory? Simply stated, Jesus made the promise in Matthew 5:48: You, therefore, must be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect. In this promise is an astonishing declaration of our dignity. We are to share in the very nature and perfection of God. This is our dignity: we are called to reflect and possess the very glory and perfection of God.

Which simply confirms that Rome teaches salvation by merit, for salvation in her system begins with becoming good enough to be with God, via the act of sprinkling, due to being forgiven and with not sins which need atonement, and with infused holiness, versus imputed on Christ;'s account.

But since few are in that pristine state when they die then they must yet again become good enough to be with God thru purgatory, commencing at death.

Thus rather than salvation by grace meaning that God justifies the unGodly by faith which is counted for righteousness on Christ's account, by a faith which effects holiness, under Rome it means that by the grace of God one actually becomes good enough to be with God, even sharing in the very nature and perfection of God.

Thus it is salvation under the law but with more grace.

Purgatory itself means "to make clean, to purify" (Lat., "purgare"), and one of the two purposes of purgatory, besides its fantasy of atoning for sin, is that one must be purified of character defects and its attachment to sin, to be with God, since no unclean thing will enter glory.

The CE explains that St. Augustine "describes two conditions of men; "some there are who have departed this life, not so bad as to be deemed unworthy of mercy, nor so good as to be entitled to immediate happiness" etc.

And thus by the close of the fourth century was taught "a place of purgation..from which when purified they "were admitted unto the Holy Mount of the Lord". For " they were "not so good as to be entitled to eternal happiness". - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

Thus Kreeft states,

"...we will go to Purgatory first, and then to Heaven after we are purged of all selfishness and bad habits and character faults." Peter Kreeft, Because God Is Real: Sixteen Questions, One Answer, p. 224

As do lay RCs who say such things as say,

"ones who will go directly to heaven are the ones who have already shed every last trace of self-love left in their hearts...Their hearts are left with nothing but pure love for Christ." -http://stillcatholic.com/CATHPurg.htm

The CE also explains that under Roman soteriology, although" the Redeemer has merited for sinners the grace of justification (causa meritoria), neverthelesshe is formally justified and made holy by his own personal justice and holiness (causa formalis).” Catholic Encyclopedia>Sanctifying Grace

But if God justifieth the un Godly by faith which is counted for righteousness, (Romans 4:5) then it cannot be the level of personal holiness that justifies one, unless you make the sanctifying effects of regeneration the cause of justification. Which means Abraham become born again when God counted his faith for righteousnesses in Gn. 15:6, and that it was. counted for righteousnesses because at that point (or in Gn. 22 if you want to make James 2 as referring to obtaining justification) he actually become good enough to be with God. Likewise the contrite criminal in Lk. 23 somehow became good enough to be with God.

Which is RC theology, via the complete cleansing and remission of the temporal punishment the act of baptism is held to effect. Leaving the souls having to maintain or attain to that pristinated state to be with God, and requiring the bureaucracy to invent a place to place those who were not bad enough for Hell nor good enough to be with God in the meantime.

Of course, on one hand RCs say souls are fit to be with God simply due to being forgiven with no sins needing temporal punishment, thus the newly baptized can directly go to be with God, yet on the other hand they want to argue that one must be purged of character defects, of self-love to have no nothing but pure love for Christ, to be perfect, yet the baptized have not attained to this level of development, but still have an irreformable corrupt nature they must learn to die to (presuming they even are born again).

Instead, if God justifieth the un Godly by faith which is counted for righteousness, (Romans 4:5) on account of Christ upon whom God laid "the iniquity of us all," bearing our sins in His own body, and "was numbered with the transgressors," (Is. 53:6,12; 1Pt. 2:24) then he can both be presently accepted in the Beloved (and only in Him, on His account) and seated with Him in heaven, (Eph. 1:6; 2:6) and forever be with the Lord at death or at His return,

Which is what Scripture always teaches wherever it manifestly speaks of the the next conscious existence after this one. (2Co. 5:8; Phil. 1:21-13; Acts 7:59; Lk. 23:39; 1Ths. 4:17)

Yet since impenitently living in sin is contrary to justifying faith, but living Godly is, then Scripture assigns damnation to those who do the former, and salvation to those who practice the latter, with repentance when convicted of the contrary.

This is what reconciles the texts which teach justification by faith and those which promise salvation in the light of works, but Caths confuse the effects of justifying faith with being the cause, or basis.

RCs invoke James 2 who states that "by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" (James 2:24), but if he is speaking of justification in same sense as Moses (Gn. 15:6) and Paul then he is contradicting them both. Instead, while Paul's protest is against salvation on the basis of merit of law-keeping, and preaches Abrahamic faith as salvific, James is protesting against an inert faith that does not work to fulfill the righteousness of the law by the Spirit, (cf. Rm. 8:4) and rightly teaches that only that kind of faith is salvific.

(Yet as seen in such places as Acts 10, God sees such justifying God-given faith before one does any work, with God "purifying their hearts by faith," (Acts 15:7-9) and leaving Rome to have to allow such justification, but only as an exemption clause.)

For as expressed, the faith that saves is a faith which follows the Lord in whom it looks to for salvation, and thus it drops the charges against the penitent in one's heart, though allowing for dealing with offenses of the reproved impenitent, (Matthew 18:15-17; Lk. 17:3,4) though not even pursuing that is the higher standard. (Lk. 23:34; Acts 7:60; 1Co. 6:7)

And which effects of faith justify one as being a believer, and fit to be rewarded under grace (Mt. 25:30-40; Rv. 3:4) to those who actually earned damnation, (Rm. 6:23) versus truly meriting them eternal life, as if they were actually good enough to be with God, as per the false postmortem purgation gospel of Rome.

And due to RC emphasis on merit, , we hear professions similar to yours such as this:

I feel when my numbers up I will appoach a large table and St.Peter will be there with an enormous scale of justice by his side. We will see our life in a movie...the things that we did for the benefit of others will be for the plus side of the scale..the other stuff,,not so good will..well, be on the negative side..and so its a very interesting job Pete has. I wonder if he pushes a button for the elevator down for the losers...and what .sideways for those heading for purgatory..the half way house....lets wait and see.... — http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=4098202&postcount=2

[Cvengr]

From the article, "Yes, there are many things in us that need purging: sin, attachment to sin, clinging to worldly things, ".

I find it ironic that the RCC believes a doctrine, wherein those who are seeking to control worldly things, also must be burned in Purgatory prior to God receiving them.

Gonna be lots of RCC dross in that fire. 0;^)

[af_vet_1981]

Could you please define what your understanding of Biblical Inerrancy is?

INERRANCY: The attribute of the books of Scripture whereby they faithfully and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to have confided through the Sacred Scriptures (107).

Do you accept the Catholic NABRE as the Word of God?

Yes, I accept it.

What is the authorized English language translation of the Bible for the Catholic church?

For the liturgy in Church, The text is that of the New American Bible with revised Psalms and New Testament (1988, 1991),

[af_vet_1981]

What happened when David committed murder and adultery? What did God do to reach David? He convicted David through Nathan the prophet.

And David confessed his sin to Nathan the prophet ... and Nathan the prophet told David his sin was forgiven ... sounds quite Catholic ...

I have to ask again. Is not the NABRE the official and approved English language version Bible for the Catholic church? If yes then you should not be pointing fingers at Mr Rogers. The NABRE has the same wording of Romans 8 as the NASB.

Already answered; I have no problem with you adopting the same Bible as the Catholic Church; I would you would adopt all the same faith, liturgy and customs as Catholics.

My point is that the Protestant Reformation started out with a different set of scriptures and posited a new doctrine of Sola Scriptura based on them. Your testimony demostrates to me that the so-called Reformation did not have the same scriptures that the Protestants and their devolved communities use today (sans some of the Independent Fundamental Baptists and perhaps a few others). Since they rebelled and divorced themselves from Holy Tradition, which does not rely and any particular set of Greek manuscripts or translations for truth, and asserted they only relied on the Word of God, their claim to legitimacy is invalid.

[Springfield Reformer]

It’s your analogy. If it doesn’t work, it doesn’t work. Jesus didn’t come to alter the law from the bench, but to fulfill it. Moses’ prophecy doesn’t say anything about the coming prophet improving the law.

Peace,

SR

[Springfield Reformer]

And the word “Trinity” isn’t in Scripture either, but we both accept it to be true. Go figure.

Peace,

SR

[daniel1212]

Simply stated, Jesus made the promise in Matthew 5:48: You, therefore, must be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect.... we are called to reflect and possess the very glory and perfection of God....having the perfection of our heavenly Father...actually be perfect as the Father is perfect!

Which is wresting Scripture. The Lord spoke this as regards the Lord's graciousness to sinners, and is an exhortation to be as God is, NOT a requirement to practically "possess the very glory and perfection of God.

If this was the requirement to be with God then it would mean that not only have newly baptized souls which (Rome thinks are fit for Heaven) attained to perfection of character, which they go on to manifest they do not, but it would mean that somehow the contrite criminal of Lk. 23 attained to perfection of character in a few hours on the cross.

Yet what Scripture teaches is that growth toward perfection is a long process requiring manifold temptations, and not simply suffering. (1 Peter 1:6-7; 1Jn.2:14; 5:4,5; Rv. 2.7,11,17,26; 3:5,12,21) Thus the Divine Lord Himself in the mystery of Hius incarnation had to experience being tempted in every basic way we are. And being made perfect [in experience and overcoming] , he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him; (Hebrews 5:9)

But Jesus made me a promise: You must be perfect as the heavenly Father is perfect.

No, that would be a requirement, and which the Lord did not make. Instead His taught by His Spirit that those who believe on Him to save them by His sinless blood, since they cannot save themselves, are counted righteous, (Em. 4:1-7ff) and accepted in Him, and due to Him, and made to sit with Him in Heaven. (Eph. 1:6; 2:6)

And wherever the NT manifestly speaks of the the next conscious existence after this one, then it is with the Lord. (2Co. 5:8; Phil. 1:21-13; Acts 7:59; Lk. 23:39; 1Ths. 4:17)

In the last verse we see that every true Christian would be with the Lord if He returned, as they expected He soon would, but instead Rome has believers going to a place of fiery torments!

The only suffering for believers is that of the judgment seat of Christ due to the loss of rewards and the Lord's disapproval at the judgment seat of Christ , which one is saved despite of, and which does not occur until the Lord's return! (1Cor. 4:5; 2Tim. 4:1,8; Rev.11:18; Mt. 25:31-46; 1Pt. 1:7; 5:4)

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. (2 Corinthians 5:10)

Catholic theology has always taken seriously God’s promise that we would actually be perfect as the Father is perfect

Which is blasphemous, as neither the newly converted, or martyrs or others whom God sends directly to glory, are as good as Christ. Instead, the converted are washed, sanctified, and justified by faith, while the next transformative event Scripture speaks of after this life is the resurrection.

The apostle Paul confessed that he was not perfect, yet expressed that to depart from this life would be to be present with the Lord, and that what he longed for as regards any constitutional change was the resurrection. And it is then and only then that believers shall be like Christ.

For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. (2 Corinthians 5:2-3)

Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2 Corinthians 5:6-8)

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:2)

And therefore believers are exhorted to be practically what they are positionally, and to be as much like Christ now as they can be, since this is God's will.

[redleghunter]

Jesus washed the disciples feet with water in the Upper Room. He didn’t use fire.

[redleghunter]

I think part of the issue is eisegesis. With a theological approach of a works based salvation, one could find much in bits and pieces to assert a purgatory.

Of course such an approach does not pass the muster of Biblical exegesis, as you have shown several times.

[Springfield Reformer]

Apples and oranges. Paul didn’t use the term as an ecclesiastical title, so the bit about being called father was not violated.

But if you want all swearing, even the kind that is nothing but a sincere promise, to be prohibited, you have to cite Paul with a violation in Galatians 1:20.

In both cases the operative question is not, “What is the technical rule,” but “What does the law really mean.” And that, BTW, is the proper role of the judge, to say what the law is. That’s what Jesus is doing. It is a reformation.

Peace,

SR

[RedHeeler]

Jesus carries our cross of burden.

[redleghunter]

I thought it was clear that he claimed once justified a person could not be condemned no matter what that person did afterward. Do you hold differntly, like the Catholics/Orthodox ?

Quite a loaded question, no? That would be akin to me asking if every Catholic was sincere when confessing their sins to a priest and properly conducting their penance in the pew afterwards. Or asking you if a Catholic is truly absolved of their sins if they sin Monday to Friday knowing they get a clean slate Saturday afternoon in the confessional. Now if I were to suggest such, I would be completely misunderstanding the spirit of Catholic penance, right? I would be portraying a most cynical opinion.

I mean what Catholic in their right mind properly catechised would think they can sin all week and be good to go after kneeling and saying "bless me father for I have sinned..."

You would put such a person out of your church after personally confronting, then with 2 or more witnesses and then if that did not work the entire church. Right?

So...to answer your specific question which Mr Rogers answered several times with Romans 8:

"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death."(Romans 8)

If one is walking according to the flesh they don't belong to Jesus. I already posted the references from 1 Thessalonians 4.

[redleghunter]

Yet since impenitently living in sin is contrary to justifying faith, but living Godly is, then Scripture assigns damnation to those who do the former, and salvation to those who practice the latter, with repentance when convicted of the contrary.

This is what reconciles the texts which teach justification by faith and those which promise salvation in the light of works, but Caths confuse the effects of justifying faith with being the cause, or basis.

I believe you expressed the issue quite well above.

[Springfield Reformer]

I believe the distinction being made here between "impurity" and "sin" is entirely artificial. Every resource I can find references either "purification," such as the CCC (1030), or "venial sin," or "temporal punishments" that were not received during life. The reason these expositors of the CCC refer to venial sin must be that it is a widely held belief among RCs. I assume you would tell me they are all, to a man, poorly catechized.

But I think the problem is different. I cannot find where the CC defines these impurities. When I am dealing with contracts, or business requirements for software projects, what happens when a term is vague is that people supply their own, sometimes contradictory meanings.  

So why has the term, in the CCC, been left vague?  My theory is that it is an umbrella for several kinds of "impurities," one of which most certainly could be venial sins. Witness here:

Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.  

Available at: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

So you should stop charging evangelicals with slander on this point, at least until you can get all your fellow RCs to get on the same page with you.  Certainly your view would be news to my own Catholic relatives. They would be shocked it had nothing to do with sin.  I suspect they might even be counting on it having everything to do with sin.  

But to be fair to you, there are other categories of "impurities." Unfinished temporal punishments seem to come up fairly often. What I found intriguing on the New Advent page cited above is that all the examples of temporal punishments happened to living people.  There are simply no authoritative examples of unfinished temporal punishments that are finished in the afterlife. That's the thing about temporal punishment. As a category, they only apply in the temporal domain.

Example 1: A murderer who escapes execution and dies of old age has still lost his temporal life.  The only difference was that God was his personal executioner, not the magistrate.

Example 2: The thief who stole and kept his stolen goods till he died. Besides being obviously unrepentant, when he dies, he loses possession of those goods. The time for temporal restitution has passed.

So including unfinished temporal punishment in the mix is flat out irrational.  It's a category error.

But what about "impurities" that are not venial sin? What are they? Words are easy.  Serious., working definitions are harder. What else can  such impurities be but a disguised form of sin?  Our sin IS our uncleanness. Our sin is what makes our hearts defective.  

And if your fellow RCs at New Advent and many other places are right, that these "impurities" include venial sin, then your case is lost entirely. We evangelicals would hold that there is no valid distinction between mortal and venial sin, that all of it must be accounted for under the blood of the Lamb of God, or else there's Hell to pay.

So Paul is right to use the past tense in describing our transition:

Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
(Ephesians 2:2-7)

No hint of waiting through years (or however long) of supernatural torture to finally emerge into Heaven.  In Paul's description here the immediacy is breathtaking. We are already there. Just like the country song.

So, in the complete absence of any Biblical teaching of purgation for some ill-defined list of impurities in an intermediate afterlife, I'm going to have to go with Paul on this. What Christ has done for us, not just what He did in some general way, but what He actually did for us on that cross, personally and individually, was so complete and the result so certain it could be spoken of in the past tense. It is finished, just as He said.

Peace,

SR

[redleghunter]

Yes, I accept it [NABRE].

Then why did you take issue with the NASB version?

Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1-4 NASB http://bible.com/100/rom.8.1-4.NASB

Hence, now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has freed you from the law of sin and death. For what the law, weakened by the flesh, was powerless to do, this God has done: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for the sake of sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous decree of the law might be fulfilled in us, who live not according to the flesh but according to the spirit. For those who live according to the flesh are concerned with the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the spirit with the things of the spirit. Romans 8:1-5 NABRE http://bible.com/463/rom.8.1-5.NABRE

Verses 1-2 are the same.

By the above verses, do you see the fruits of the Spirit, or effects of sanctification ingraft us into Christ or declare that we are grafted into Christ?

[redleghunter]

Please stop the mind reading. I gave no indication I use the NABRE. I was showing the NASB and NABRE used the same translation for Romans 8:1.

I'll say it again. KJV or NASB or ESV matters not on clearly understanding Justification by Faith. I just looked at a Children's Bible and it's clear. You seem to be hung up with:

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:1 KJV http://bible.com/1/rom.8.1.KJV

As was previously stated, and shown, using both the KJV, NASB and NABRE does not change the meaning of the passage. There is nothing to evoke a change of doctrine. Unless you don't think the Apostles taught justification by faith?

[redleghunter]

So, in the complete absence of any Biblical teaching of purgation for some ill-defined list of impurities in an intermediate afterlife, I'm going to have to go with Paul on this.

You would think the Apostles would have left us a 'list' of some sort to figure out how long we would allegedly be in purgatory. Kicking your little brother-- 5 minutes in the furnace. Bounced check in the poor box---15 years. Etc.