Posted on 08/17/2015 6:07:35 PM PDT by NKP_Vet
It is that time of week again, where we talk about the Mary, the Mother of God. This is definitely the single most important title that Mary has. If someone gets this wrong, then they get the Divinity of our Lord wrong, and that means the whole plan of Salvation is just messed up. So let us look at this most important title.
Theotokos, God-bearer in Greek, is what the council of Ephesus declared in 431. It specifically says this “If anyone does not confess that God is truly Emmanuel, and that on this account the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God (for according to the flesh she gave birth to the Word of God become flesh by birth), let him be anathema.” Now just that statement alone proves the early Church believed that there was Authority given to the bishops to decide sound doctrine, Mary was a Holy Virgin her entire life, and that She bore God. However, we only have time for one today.
Now many times we will hear non-Catholics tell us that this title is nowhere found in Scripture, explicitly at least. However, they cannot themselves find a Scripture verse that says that all doctrine and dogma must be explicitly proven in Scripture. I bet they can never find that. This is a trap they set up for themselves and it is a very unfair double standard that they expect us to meet, but they do not have to. However, on top of this double standard is if we used that same standard, then the doctrine of the Trinity is thrown out, since it’s not an explicit teaching, but instead is implicit in Scripture. This double standard seems to cause more problems that it’s worth wouldn’t you say?
Here is the cold hard truth of it though, all Christians rely on some Church Tradition, as well as Scripture, to validate their doctrines, whether they admit it or not. With that being said, Scripture and Tradition can never contradict one another. The Traditions of men can contradict the Word of God, but the Traditions God left us, through Christ, in the Holy Spirit, are binding upon us, as we are to hold fast to Traditions. So then, what is the real question? The real question is, Does Scripture contradict the teaching that Mary is the Mother of God, and is that doctrine found in Scripture at least implicitly?
Let us begin with Luke 1:43, where Mary visited Elizabeth. There Elizabeth exclaimed “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Because Mary was the Mother of the Lord, who is the Second part of the Holy Trinity, Mary is truly and rightfully called the Mother of God.
We also see in Isaiah 7:14 “Behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which is interpreted God with us.” Jesus is God. He was God when He was in the womb, conceived, lived, died, buried, resurrected, in the Eucharist, and in Heaven. The Messiah, who is God, was to be born of a virgin, according to Scripture. God was born of a virgin, and it’s right there in Isaiah, who prophesied of Christ birth. That means both Old and New Testament support the Catholic Doctrine of the Mother of God.
However, this may not be enough for some non-Catholics. Some say that Elisabeth called Christ Lord, and not God, saying that Mary was only to give birth to the human child, the Lord Jesus Christ. So then the question becomes, does lord here mean divinity or just authority? Let’s look at the context.
First let us look at 1 Cor. 8:5, which states “Indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet to us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.” St. Paul makes it clear that Jesus is the one True, Lord, as opposed to all the false ones, that the pagans who converted in Corinth were probably worshiping. So then, they would understand that Jesus is God. This holds true to the Jews who converted too, who would know Deut. 6:4 “Hear, therefore, o Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord.”
So then that brings us back to Luke 1:43. Elizabeth calls Mary the mother of her Lord. The Mother…Mothers give birth to persons, not natures, let us remember that. Mary did not just give birth to the human nature of Christ, she gave birth to the person of Christ. Christ personhood is Divine, it is God the Son.
Then let us look at 2 Sam. 6:9 where the King, who was David says “How can the ark of the Lord come to me (being the ark of the covenant)” Then in 2 Samuel 616 we see King David leaping in the presence of the Ark, just as John the Baptist did. Then we yet again see another parallel, which says that the ark of the Lord abode in the house of Obededom the Gethite for three months (2 Sam. 6:11), and according to Luke 1:56 Mary remained in the house of Elizabeth about three months. Then, we see that the ark of the covenant carried three items, manna, the Ten Commandments, and Aaron’s rod. These are all types of things Christ are, the Bread of Life, Word made Flesh, and our true High Priest.
Even knowing all this though, there are still those who would deny that Mary is the Mother of God. So then we have to ask, who is Jesus Christ to them? If Mary is not the Mother of God, then who did she give birth to? Many would say it was an earthly human lord, not God. So then, what does that make Christ? If Mary did not give birth to God, then who did she give birth to? Was not Christ God when He was conceived?
If someone says Mary only gave birth to the person of Christ one of two errors, or both could happen, and that is the Denial of the divinity of Christ, and that one would have to say Christ is two distinct persons, and that he is not One. Both were considered heresy in the Early Church. Christ is one Person, with two natures, Divine and Human, which go together and are not separate of one another. If one denies that, the ultimately they are speaking about a different Christ, and St. Paul warns us about that problem, and to not to give heed to them (2 Cor. 11:4).
So then, some say that Mary is the mother of the Trinity if we take it that far, however, this is not true. Mary gave birth to the 2nd part of the Trinity, the 2nd Person, who is still God just not the Trinity. However, we must never forget that each Person in the Trinity shares the same Divine Nature and is fully God.
One thing some still point out is that Christ is eternal, so for Mary to be the Mother of God she would have to be God. However the Church does not say Mary is the source of the Divine Nature of the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. To better understand this let’s look at humanity. Parents give birth to a person, however they are not the author of life, and certainly did not give the child it’s soul. Thus is true with Mary, she did not give Christ His Divine Nature, though she was the Mother of more than just the human form of Christ, because she gave birth to a person, who was God.
Oh yes, long before. The celebration of the Dormition of the Theotokos started in the 7th century at the latest, long before the Great Schism. Writings about her death go back as far as the 3rd or 4th century. St. John of Damascus, one of the Fathers of The Church, wrote three magnificent sermons on her dormition in the 7th or 8th century. Here's a link to his first one:
http://full-of-grace-and-truth.blogspot.com/2009/08/on-dormition-of-theotokos-by-st-john-of.html
The Holy Traditions surrounding the Dormition of the Most Holy Theotokos have been around for a very long time. It is only really within the last 175 years or so that there has been much controversy about it so far as I know.
Who knows what the "official" version is (Who cares?) But here's an interesting outtake from THIS SITE.
Once, when She [Mary. In this article, they capitalize her name and all pronouns that refer to her.] went to the Mount of Olives to pray, Archangel Gabriel appeared and spoke of Her approaching departure from this world. Upon returning home, She told Apostle John all that the Archangel had said to Her and started preparing Herself for Her final day on earth. Friends and relatives gathered, and eleven of the apostles were miraculously transported from various parts of the world to Her deathbed. They were all amazed to see each other there. When Apostle John explained that the Mother of God would soon be departing this world, they understood why God had brought them together and became sad. But She comforted them, saying: “Do not cry and darken My happiness with your sadness. I am going to My Son and your God, and you will bury My body and return each to your work.” As the time of Her death neared, the room shone with a divine light, the roof disappeared, and a wondrous sight appeared before all: the Lord Jesus Christ descended from heaven surrounded by many angels. All looked upon this wondrous sight with awe and reverence, and when they approached Her bed, the holy body of the Mother of God shone radiantly, and a fragrance of incense pervaded the room.Oh! My!
And John writes not one word about this.......amazing.
. No wonder they want the Fifth Marian Dogma so badly.
. The whole thing mocks what we celebrate as Christianity.
They do?!!! Run!!!
Who are they?
Their religion uses the name of Jesus but their religion is completely foreign to the bible and bible Christianity ...
“She’s given names of God. She’s given attributes of God. She’s given characteristics of God. She’s given power of God. She’s prayed to, bowed down to, and had plenty of people dedicate their lives to her.”
Instead of the humble servant of God, who was graced by being chosen to bear messiah, she is idolized as a demigoddess that is positioned between people and God - she herself perfect. All false and idolatry.
“And John writes not one word about this.......amazing.”
Bears repeating.
This phrase:
“... lest ye reprove thee ...” (from Proverbs 30:6)
... exists in no English language version that I can find. Nor does the Hebrew support such a nonsensical translation. The “ye” should be a “he.” Which leaves two possibilities:
1. You miscopied it from a correct version, or
2. The version you copied it from was misprinted
Of the two, the first is easier to believe than the second.
Having said that, this little subplot does nothing to advance the understanding about the authority of Scripture over competitors for that role. The idea embodied in “Sola Scriptura” has much deeper roots than the Reformation, though, like so many Christian doctrines, it needed a good crisis to foster a more complete articulation.
Peace,
SR
So you make The Word up yourselves? Like Luther did?
Yes, that story is the one I was told as a child. It was around at the latest by the 9th century. Though the site you chose was Russian, the origins of the story are Greek/Antiochian.
Please understand that none of these stories/beliefs are “dogmatic” for the Orthodox. They are what are called theologoumenna, pious opinions which we can hold or not as we are lead by the Holy Spirit.
Yeah, I was off a letter. I’m no transcriber. So which of us does God condemn? Me for a honest transcription error or the Samaritan for willfully ignoring the text altogether? or both?
However, THIS is from CatholicEducation.org that addresses The Dormition of Mary: St. John Damascene (d. 749) also recorded an interesting story concerning the Assumption: "St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, at the Council of Chalcedon (451), made known to the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria, who wished to possess the body of the Mother of God, that Mary died in the presence of all the Apostles, but that her tomb, when opened, upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty; wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to heaven." These stories, however, must not take precedence over the theological grounding for our belief in the Assumption of our Blessed Mother. Rather, we must remember that the Patristic Fathers defended the Assumption on two counts: Since Mary was sinless and a perpetual virgin, she could not suffer bodily deterioration, the result of original sin, after her death. Also, if Mary bore Christ and played an intimate role as His mother in the redemption of man, then she must likewise share body and soul in His resurrection and glorification. So did Mary die first before being assumed? Did she fall "asleep"? Was she buried? The Church does not bind us to a particular answer because the tradition is not clear. In an apocryphal collection of stories called Transitus Mariae (The Passage of Mary), attributed to Bishop St. Melito of Sardis (d. c. 200), Mary died in the presence of the apostles in Jerusalem, and then depending on the story, her body just disappeared, or was buried and then disappeared.
It's all pretty clear: The "Holy Roman Catholic Church" is desperate to associate Mary with the life and work of Jesus Christ. It is a process of deification. Metmom pointed that out in THIS POST and we see it in the order and progression of "Marian Dogma." I want to also acknowledge THIS POST from Daniel1212 (my favorite post in this thread, btw).
Also, I have no problem associating the life of a Christian with the "resurrection and glorification" of Christ - but the quote above gives me the impression that the "Patristic Fathers" assign these things to Mary exclusively since it says, "...if Mary bore Christ and played an intimate role as His mother in the redemption of man, then she must likewise share body and soul in His resurrection and glorification." (my emphasis)
Yep, which is why I try to avoid the problem altogether by copying and pasting directly from my eSword. Somewhere it says the wise man sees the pit ahead and walks around it.
As for errors, we mortals are all fallible. That's one of the main reasons we can't rely on any man or system of men to know the mind of God, but must do as Jesus says, be sustained in this wilderness by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.
Peace,
SR
Satan has captured too many souls through the institutionalized religion of catholiciism, with blasphemous rituals and sacrilegious repetitive prayers to dead people appealed to for intercession, immediately proclaiming through their behaviors that God is not sufficiently with us or hearing every one who calls upon the Lord, reverting to pagan practices such as eating the actual and real presences of the pagan god manipulated from its godhood by the power of the religion's priesthood.
These blasphemies bind the adherents to serve the ridicule and remain deaf and dumb to The Truth in The Word and thus The Word made flesh Who dwelt among us is not sufficient so the adherents must strive within the institutional power to obtain, by earning THAT WHICH GOD PROMISES ONLY BY HIS GRACE through faithing in The One He Has Sent for our salvation and new life in the here and now.
Jesus came into the world to save sinners, to put His life in those who are of a broken and contrite spirit. The religion of catholiciism teaches its adherents to be proud of their working for eternal life, and in so doing cuts them off from eternal life as Promised by God to be afforded ONLY by faithing in The One Whom God has sent to be the propitiation and Lord, our Great High Priest in the Holy of Holies in Heaven, never in a wafer on earth or a cup of wine.
In the very sacraments catholiciism insists must be followed for eternal life to be 'obtained' this paganize religion mocks God's nature and seals off the adherents from Truth by directing their faithing to these works which fund self pride. We see the result of this pride in the mocking tones and ridiculing voices steeped in the blasphemies of catholic ritual and catholic pride.
A soul so puffed up in the pride of works cannot be a broken and contrite one and every participation in the blasphemous ritual of Mass amplifies the pride of doing to be worthy. Every session in the confessional elevates the pagan priesthood to power that is the antithesis of what Jesus Himself taught His disciples, as recorded in the Word God has given to us for our growth and edification.
We read ne or two of these servants to this blasphemous religious institution telling us this institutionalization is required for God to be in them. Yet if God is in them, ever, they are no longer striving to obtain or retain eternal life for it would be int hem making a new creation of them. Yet they teach others that this life in them must be renewed when a sin is committed, as if God comes and goes with their spirit like a yoyo. This is a direct contradiction to the Bible and what Paul by the inspiration of God's Spirit wrote concerning eternal life in the believer.
As we read their posts, it is as if they have never read the Book of Hebrews or the letter to the Romans, have never seen the proclamations in Titus, Peter's letters, or the letters Paul wrote to the bodies of believers his evangelizing established in Thessalonika, Ephesus, and Corinth. Every time a catholic apologist spittles the notion that it is the catholic church which has give us the Bible, that spittlist has proclaimed God in need of human works, as if The God Who Created the UNiverse is unable to dirtect the survival of the written message He has sent for our needs, spiritually.
The works of satan done through the catholic magicsteeringthem are evidenced in the subtle changes of particular words in the Bible, twisted to support lies such as Mariology, to counter the protestations against such blasphemies, such as changing the 'apostasia' from reading departure to rebellion (2 Thess 2:3). And the servants of this blasphemous religion fashioned to look like Christianity but having only the power of satan in it exhibit the most telling feature of the perishing who are full of religiosity, they are so prideful int heir membership devotion tot he cult.
He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: and he that rebuketh a wicked man getteth himself a blot. Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee. Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning. The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding. For by me thy days shall be multiplied, and the years of thy life shall be increased. If thou be wise, thou shalt be wise for thyself: but if thou scornest, thou alone shalt bear it. A foolish woman is clamorous: she is simple, and knoweth nothing. For she sitteth at the door of her house, on a seat in the high places of the city, To call passengers who go right on their ways:
Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Nice story.
I wonder who made that up?
And not one word about it at all in Scripture.
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? Behold, I have received commandment to bless: and he hath blessed; and I cannot reverse it. He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: the LORD his God is with him, and the shout of a king is among them. God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn. Surely there is no enchantment against Jacob, neither is there any divination against Israel: according to this time it shall be said of Jacob and of Israel, What hath God wrought! Behold, the people shall rise up as a great lion, and lift up himself as a young lion: he shall not lie down until he eat of the prey, and drink the blood of the slain.
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