Posted on 08/04/2015 11:05:04 AM PDT by Kevin C
Silly name
My pleasure.
When you look at the conservative Presbyterian denominations here is the run down on ordination:
Elders*: Men Only
Orthodox Pres (OPC)
Presbyterian Church in America (PCA)
Associate Reformed Presbyterian (ARP
Deacons: Men Only
OPC
PCA
The Evangelical Pres, which we can debate if they are conservative or not, allows for the ordination of women as elders. The ordination of teaching elders is very rare.
*Presbyterian Churches have a plurality of Elders. The Teaching Elder is the Pastor, and ruling Elders are laymen.
How do we describe those who will say, Lord Lord.. Where He replies to them, ‘I never knew you, depart from Me, you who do lawlessness?
Saved or unsaved? Never saved?
Is it even a salvation issue?
Or a sanctification issue?
Is it even for us to know?
Could that be any of us?
Curious your thoughts
They were what we consider “Saved” but He did not know them. They did great works in His name and showed the fruits of Salvation. But He didn’t know them because they worked inequity.
It speaks for itself. You don’t get to decide if you are Saved. There is NOTHING you can do to ensure your Salvation. Only He can do that.
Thanks...that clears it up.
We tend to argue that ordination to the priesthood and diaconate is a sacrament that requires a “vir” = man, and simply cannot be passed on to women. I’m intrigued that even without believing in any sacramental distinction between presbyteroi and laity, you can make the case against women’s ordination purely from a standpoint of church order.
Might be some good arguments there for us to mine when dealing with our own heretics. :)
Saved or unsaved? Never saved? Never
Is it even a salvation issue? They were never saved
Or a sanctification issue? N/A
Is it even for us to know? It is clear in Scripture
Could that be any of us? Yes.
Let's look at the entire passage:
Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’In their plea, what are they claiming they did? Teaching, casting out demons and doing mighty deeds, all in Jesus's name.
What is the one thing they left out? The only thing that will save them? Faith in Jesus as their Savior. Without faith all of their works are filthy rags.
Anyone who thinks they are saved by works will also be cast out on that great and awful day.
Well, we make it from Scripture, which is where our church order arises.
I generally refer to ECO as ‘homophobic liberals’. They are the latest group to break off from the PCUSA, and were too liberal for EPC (the previous group). The embrace women pastors and elders, and were tolerant of the PCUSA’s pro-abortion positions.
With respect to Gamecock’s post 42, I’d add a footnote to the PCA. Some of the congregations have UNordained women deacons or deaconesses. So while he is correct that women cannot be ordained as deacons in the PCA, there are congregations that will show women in diaconal roles on their website (In your area, I believe 10th Presbyterian in Philly falls into this category).
In many respects, the ARP is generally more conservative than the PCA, but they do ordain women as deacons (although not all churches do so, and there is some pushback from the congregations that don’t.)
Frankly, PCA congregations should be looked at on a case-by-case basis. While they will generally be the best Presbyterian option available (more conservative denominations tend to be regional) there are congregations which should be avoided.
No, the PCUSA has actually been pretty good about the pensions. They'll try to grab the church property, or extort a payment (and some Presbyteries are better than other in this regard, particularly if the congregation has the resources to fight).
EPC is probably re-wound 30 years. ECO is probably re-wound less than 5).
**Some of the congregations have UNordained women deacons or deaconesses. So while he is correct that women cannot be ordained as deacons in the PCA, there are congregations that will show women in diaconal roles on their website**
Great point.
LOL!
So 5 years from now they will be right back where they started from
Silly name
Irish Constabulary Fazerkley No. 4 Mk.2, and Ishapore 2A.
We aren't Baptists! Only a pastor (sometimes called 'teaching elder' or 'minister') can administer the sacraments. From the Westminster Confession of Faith:
Chapter 28, Paragraph "II. The outward element to be used in this sacrament is water, wherewith the party is to be baptized, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, by a minister of the Gospel, lawfully called thereunto."
Chapter 29, Paragraph 3: "The Lord Jesus has, in this ordinance, appointed His ministers to declare His word of institution to the people, to pray, and bless the elements of bread and wine, and thereby to set them apart from a common to an holy use; and to take and break the bread, to take the cup, and (they communicating also themselves) to give both to the communicants;[5] but to none who are not then present in the congregation."
Lol so what’s the true church
Belgic Confession 29, Of the Marks of the True Church, and Wherein she Differs from the False Church
I was referring to the generalization of nearly all protestant denominations.
9 of various types & calibers, may favorite is an “after market” #4Mk1 tanker, shoots like a dream. For looks I’ll take #1 Mk3 with the 18” blade.
Man you’re uptight
Ok, understood....but what I meant was you do not believe that the ordination confers an indelible sacramental character on the person. Is that right?
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