Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Why I am not Protestant (Non-Denominational, Baptist, Pentecostal, etc)
catholic365.com ^ | 6/17/2015 | By Shaila D Touchton

Posted on 06/27/2015 6:34:38 PM PDT by Morgana

According to recent statistics, in the United States alone, there are 327,717 Protestant churches and 19,863 Catholic churches. However, despite the numerous individual congregations here and throughout the world, there’s really only one true Church.

Even though many churches have differences in doctrinal opinions or other characteristics, every church which is based on Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord is a part of the true Church. Amazingly, there are thousands of different denominational and independent Christian churches who, for the most part, agree on the basic fundamentals of Christ, but who maintain their separate groups for relatively minor issues. They may not agree on all other matters of doctrine, interpretation, traditions, or the special emphasis placed on certain beliefs.

The true Church will be founded by Jesus Christ Himself in Mt 16:18. It would be built on Simon Peter, Mt 16:18. It would be defended by GOD Himself, Mt 16:18-19. It would have authority given by Jesus Christ, Mt 16:19,18:17-18. It would be guided by the Holy Spirit who will dwell within it, Jn 14:15-17, Act 15:28,16:6. It would be one and undivided, Mk 3:24-25. It would have one fold and one shepherd, Jn 10:16. It would have Priests, Bishops, and Deacons, 1Tim 3:1-13. It must have the Holy Communion celebration, Jn 6:42-70, Act 2:42. It must be found in all nations, Mt 28:19. It must be found in all centuries, Mt 28:20. It must offer the celebration of the sacrifice of the Mass, and offer incense and a ' Pure Offering, ' Malachi 1:11. Jesus Christ said He would be with His Church every day, in every year, until the end of the world, Mt 28:20.

The following list provides points on why otherdenominations are not the true Church:

1. Other churches do not have Authority and Apostolic succession and they deny Pope as unscriptural and also deny that Peter’s successors claim authority over the Church.

Before the Apostles passed on, they started a system, commanded by Jesus Christ, to pass the faith to successors. This was to insure the perpetuity of the Catholic Church which Jesus Christ founded. That system is called "Apostolic Succession” and it has an unbroken line of Popes throughout the ages.

Every Catholic Bishop can show his line of apostolic descent. That is, he can show who consecrated him, who consecrated his consecrator, and so on, all the way back to the Apostles. Jesus Christ vested in the Apostles special Apostolic authority that has been passed down in unbroken succession through the Bishops of the Church for almost two thousand years, so that the present Bishops of the Church truly teach with the voice of Jesus Christ through the Apostles ( Matt. 10:1,40, Matt. 16:19; 18:18, Luke 9:1; 10:19, Luke 22:29, Luke 10:16, Eph. 2:20, John 13:20, Acts 1:15-26, Jn 20:21,Acts 1:20, Jn 17:22-23, Jn 21:15-17, Heb 3:1,Acts 15:22-27, 1 Tim. 4:14, Sirach 45:15, Acts 15:7, Numbers 3:3, 2 Cor. 1:21-22, Acts 14:23 ,Lk 24:49, Jn 12:49 ,Mt 28:19-20, Jn 20:22-23, 1Thess 2:4).

Jesus Christ addressed Peter, and Peter only, when He gave Peter alone, the KEYS to the Kingdom of Heaven, and the power of "Binding and Loosening" of sins, or if you prefer, the "Sacrament of Reconciliation". Clearly, when Jesus addressed Peter only, and at the same time gave him a name change from Simon to Peter, he had appointed Peter as the "prime" Apostle. Later in Matt 18:18, Jesus gave the power of "Binding and Loosening" to all of the Apostles. After Jesus had risen from the dead, He appeared to all of the Apostles and again gave them the power of "Binding and Loosening" in John 20:22-23.

To further strengthen the "Primacy of Peter" Jesus addressed him only, in John 21:15-17, when He commanded him to "Feed My Sheep". As another example, Jesus commanded Simon Peter to strengthen his brethren in Luke 22:31-32.

Peter acknowledged his primacy, when at the Council of Jerusalem, he stood up and said, "Brethren, you know that in early days GOD made choice among us, that through MY mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the Gospel and believe." Acts 15:7

Peter's statement was singular in that the truth of the Gospel would come from the primacy of the Catholic Church, and that primacy is the Papacy.

Now that we have a Church Hierarchy guided by the Holy Spirit, one of their primary duties is to hold periodic Church Councils. These Councils are called in order to define revealed truths in Scripture and to address rising heresy, and other problems of the time. The Councils are attended by the Pope and the Bishops, and they are Biblical as evidenced by the following scriptures: "Where there is no Governor, the people shall fall; but there is safety where there is much Council." Prov 11:14

"The way of a fool is right in his own eyes; but he that is Wise harkens unto Councils." Prov 12:15 "Designs are brought to nothing where there is no Council; but where there are many Counselors, they are established." Prov 15:22 (Prov 19:20, Prov 20:18, 1Macc 8:15-16, Isa 16:3).

Acts 15:12 - Only after Peter (the Pope) speaks, do Paul and Barnabas (bishops) speak in support of Peter's definitive teaching.

Acts 15:13-14 - Then James speaks to further acknowledge Peter's definitive teaching. "Simeon (Peter) has related how God first visited..."

Rom. 15:20 - Paul says he doesn't want to build on "another man's foundation" referring to Peter, who built the Church in Rome.

1 Cor. 9:5 - Peter is distinguished from the rest of the apostles and brethren of the Lord.

1 Cor. 15:4-8 - Paul distinguishes Jesus' post-resurrection appearances to Peter from those of the other apostles. Christ appeared “to Cephas, then to the twelve.”

Gal.1:18 - Paul spends fifteen days with Peter privately before beginning his ministry, even after Christ's Revelation to Paul.

1 Peter 5:1 - Peter acts as the chief bishop by "exhorting" all the other bishops and elders of the Church.

1 Peter 5:13 - Some Protestants argue against the Papacy by trying to prove Peter was never in Rome. First, this argument is irrelevant to whether Jesus instituted the Papacy. Secondly, this verse demonstrates that Peter was in fact in Rome. Peter writes from "Babylon" which was a code name for Rome during these days of persecution. See, for example, Rev. 14:8, 16:19, 17:5, 18:2,10,21, which show that "Babylon" meant Rome. Rome was the "great city" of the New Testament period. Because Rome during this age was considered the center of the world, the Lord wanted His Church to be established in Rome.

2 Peter 1:14 - Peter writes about Jesus' prediction of Peter's death, embracing the eventual martyrdom that he would suffer.

2 Peter 3:16 - Peter is making a judgment on the proper interpretation of Paul's letters. Peter is the chief shepherd of the flock.

Matt. 23:11; Mark 9:35; 10:44 - Yet Peter, as the first, humbled himself to be the last and servant of all servants.

2. Other churches have human founders. John Smyth, who originally was a bishop in the Church of England, left that church and fled to Holland. He, along with others, formed the first Baptist church around 1610. Now they have numerous Baptist Church divisions among themselves. Non-denominational is a term generally used to refer to one of two forms of independence: political or theological.

Jesus Christ has only one bride, and she is the Church...Jeremiah 16:9, John 3:28-29, Revelation 18:23, 19:7-8, 21:9. Some would say the Church was founded in Matthew 16:18, but Jesus Christ said He 'will ' build His Church on the 'rock' of Peter. Others say the Church was founded at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit descended upon the Apostles in Acts 2:1-47. However that was when the Apostles were given the knowledge, and wisdom, and authority, with which to build the Church upon the cornerstone, which is Jesus Christ.

3. Other churches have many divisions of the Body of Christ and so much confusion. "GOD is not the author of confusion..."1Corinthians 14:33. If GOD is not the author of 33,800+ confused splits in His Body, then who is? It is caused by the disobedience of his creatures. "Has Christ been divided up?"1Corinthians 1:13." the Lord builds the house, they labor in vain who build it." 127:1. Let no one lead you astray with empty words; for because of these things the wrath of GOD comes upon the children of disobedience. Do not, then, become partakers with them."

Ephesians 5:6-7 "The Scribes and Pharisees have sat on the chair of Moses. ALL things, therefore, that they command you, observe and do. But do not act according to their works; for they talk but do nothing.” Matthew 23:2-3. This is a command to be obedient regardless of individual feelings, and it comes from Jesus Christ.

4. Other churches partake in Lord’s Supper and observance of the supper “when they desire and it’s merely a symbol. Some of them ignore the true presence of Christ and they make accusations against such Catholic beliefs. Others forbid the drinking of wine during Lord’s supper.

In Matt. 26:27,29; Mark 14:23,25; Luke 22:17-18; 1 Cor. 11:25-27 , Jesus instituted the Eucharist using wine and commanded us to "do this in remembrance of me." We know that Jesus instituted the Eucharist at the Jewish seder meal, which required the use of wine. Yet some Protestant churches forbid drinking wine. Such a prohibition is not based on the Scriptures.

In Luke 7:33-34 , God the Son drank wine and was accused of being a drunk. Are those Protestant churches that forbid the drinking of wine doing the same?

In John 2:1-11, Jesus' first miracle was turning water into wine which was drunk at the wedding at Cana. Wine is a symbol of the life of the Church, in both the Eucharist and, here, the sanctification of the sacrament of marriage. Verse 10 also indicates that the people drank enough wine at the feast to the point that they might not have recognized good wine from bad wine. Yet Jesus creates for them more wine to drink.

In 1 Tim. 5:23, Paul tells Timothy to drink not just water, but a little wine for the sake of his stomach and frequent ailments. If Paul, under divine inspiration, encourages the drinking of wine, why do some Protestant churches prohibit it?

In Gen. 14:18, Melchizedek offers a bread and wine sacrifice, and Jesus is the Priest in the same manner. Heb. 5:6,10; 6:20; 7:15,17.

In Gen. 27:25, Isaac brought Jacob wine, and he drank, with God's favor.

In Neh. 8:10, Nehemiah commands the faithful to drink sweet wine to celebrate the Lord and His holy day.

In Psalm 104:15, the Psalmist writes that "wine gladdens the heart of a man." God gave us the fruit of the vine to enjoy.

Ecclesiastes 9:7 states "drink your wine with a merry heart, for God approves what you do."

On the night of the Last Supper, He established the Priesthood, and commanded them to "Do this in remembrance of Me", thus perpetuating the Holy Eucharist, and fulfilling the prophecy of Malachi 1:11. In John 20:22-23, He breathed upon them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit; whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained". He thus empowered them to act in His Person, in "Persona Christi", (2Cor 2:10). The priest had become the hands and the voice of Jesus Christ.

Please read Matt 9:8, "But when the crowds saw it, they were struck with fear, and glorified GOD WHO HAD GIVEN SUCH POWER TO MEN."

1Cor 10:16 says, "The cup of the blessing that we bless, IS IT NOT THE SHARING OF THE BLOOD OF CHRIST? And the bread that we break, IS IT NOT THE PARTAKING OF THE BODY OF THE LORD?"

Could St. Paul have said this any clearer than he did here? Where did he say the "symbolic" sharing or the "symbolic" partaking? This verse is absolutely to the point, and there is not a hint of symbolism anywhere.

Did you notice the BLESSING THAT WE BLESS, and the BREAD THAT WE BREAK?

Here, Saint Paul clearly stated that he and the other Apostles have the authority and the power

(Acts 1:8,2:2-4) describes how the Apostles call down "THE WORD" with their word, and then the cup (of wine) is no longer wine, but the Blood of Christ, and the bread is no longer bread, but the Body of Christ.

5. Other churches point out that there are scandals in Catholic Church. Jesus Christ warned us that there would be scandals in His Church. "Woe to the world because of scandals! For it must need be that scandals come, but woe to the man through whom scandal does come!" Matthew 18:7

And He said to His disciples, "It is impossible that scandals should not come; but woe to him through whom they come." Luke 17:1

These are the words of Jesus Christ Himself. Did He say the Church is the source, or the cause of the scandals? No, He said a person is. Remember, the Catholic Church is not a hotel for saints, it is a hospital for sinners (Mark 2:17).

In Matthew 13:24-30, Jesus Christ described His Church, the Kingdom of Heaven, as being a “field of wheat and weeds,” showing that there would be good and bad, saints and sinners, and everyone in between, in the Church until the day when He returned to judge the nations. This means that, sadly, there will be members of His Church, including priests and bishops, who are notorious sinners. We can see this sad reality even at the very beginning of the Church in the person of the Apostle Judas Iscariot, who betrayed Christ to His enemies (Matthew 26:16-23 ; Luke 22:47-49), and Simon Peter, who denied the Lord three times (Matthew 26:34, 75).

Notice that even Christ’s own hand-picked followers committed scandalous wicked acts! Even so, this did not negate or disprove the truth that Christ transmitted to the world through His Apostles (Mark 16:15). As Christ promised, in spite of the weakness and sinfulness — indeed, the scandals caused by priests and other Catholics, “the gates of hell will not prevail against” the Church. Also there are scandals among non-Catholics as well. Please visit the web http://www.reformation.com/.

6. Did any of these denominations receive authority from Holy Scripture to form their own ecclesial communities? According to the following scriptures:

"Behold I am against the prophets, said the Lord, who use their tongues, and say: The Lord said it. Behold I am against the prophets that have lying dreams, said the Lord, and tell them, and cause my people to err by their lying, and by their wonders, when I sent them not, nor commanded them, who have not profited this people at all, said the Lord." Jeremiah 23:31-32

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of." 2Peter 2:1-2

"But these men deride whatever they do not know; and the things they know by instinct like the dumb beasts, become for them a source of destruction." 2Peter 2:12, Jude 1:10

7. Other members of other denominations appear to be the grumbling murmurers, haughty in speech, they cultivate people for the sake of gain and cause divisions as described in scripture: “These are grumbling murmurers walking according to their lusts. And haughty in speech, they cultivate people for the sake of gain. But as for you, beloved, be mindful of the words that have been spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, who kept saying to you that at the end of time there will come scoffers, walking impiously according to their lusts. These are they who set themselves apart, sensual men, not having the Spirit." Jude 1:16-19 "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which you have learned: and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple." Romans 16:17-18

8. Many of the other denominations declare that the Holy Spirit is "teaching" them the truth. However, there can be only one truth.

How can the Holy Spirit be in each of the thousands of denominations teaching all of them opposing viewpoints? It is to be noted that all of the following denominations teach from the same Bible, so why the differences in teaching? Why are there so many doctrinal disputes which have arisen between them? There are approximately 37,000* non-Catholic Christian sects in the world today with more new ones appearing every week. All use the same Bible, yet each interpret it differently, and consequently they end up teaching "another Gospel" (Galatians 1:8-9). The sad part is that they all try to justify their existence, and thus their actions of further dividing the Body of Christ by claiming, "The Holy Spirit Told Me" the teaching of Jesus Christ, as He called for "One Fold with One Shepherd" (John 10:16).

These divisions of the Body of Christ are in opposition to the teaching of Holy Scripture, so how could it ever be possible that the Holy Spirit is prompting those who cause them?

"Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ, THAT YOU ALL SAY THE SAME THING; AND THAT THERE BE NO DISSENSIONS AMONG YOU, BUT THAT YOU MAY BE PERFECTLY UNITED IN ONE MIND AND IN ONE JUDGMENT." 1Corinthians 1:10. See also 1Corinthians 11:17-22

"Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. "Matthew 12:25 "Anyone who advances and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ, HAS NOT GOD; he who abides in the doctrine, he has both the Father and the Son." 2John 1:9

"For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?" 1Peter 4:17

The Bible is very explicit that those who cause these divisions are not from GOD, so therefore, the Holy Spirit could not possibly be prompting other denominations. "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of GOD; because many false prophets have gone forth into the world. By this is the spirit of GOD known: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of GOD. AND EVERY SPIRIT THAT SEVERS JESUS, IS NOT OF GOD, BUT IS OF ANTICHRIST, of whom you have heard that He is coming, and now is already in the world."

1John 4:1-3 warns Satan will give you 99 truths if he can get you to swallow one lie.

Many things yet I have to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. But when HE, THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, has come, HE WILL TEACH YOU ALL THE TRUTH. For He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He will hear He will speak, and THE THINGS THAT ARE TO COME HE WILL DECLARE TO YOU." John 16:12-13

"We are of GOD. He who knows GOD listens to us; he who is not of GOD does not listen to us. BY THIS WE KNOW THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH AND THE SPIRIT OF ERROR." 1John 4:6

There are three spirits, anyone one of which could be the one who is prompting a person.

1. There is first the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, and His prompting is from GOD.

2. Then there is the human spirit which manufactures the prompts through the imagination and other human traits.

3. Finally, there is the evil spirit and its prompting is straight from Satan.

The Spirit of truth is in the Church of truth, the Church which Jesus Christ founded.

How do we determine which Spirit is prompting each of us? Holy Scripture gives us the answer.

"And we are witnesses to these things, and SO IS THE HOLY SPIRIT, WHOM GOD HAS GIVEN TO ALL WHO OBEY HIM." Acts 5:32

All who obey Him are prompted by the Holy Spirit. The disobedient are prompted by one of the other spirits.

"Obey your prelates and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls: that they may do this with joy and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you." Hebrews 13:17

This is a command from GOD. If GOD is first in your lives, it is a good sign that the Holy Spirit is prompting you.

9. Other churches are wrong in teaching the plan of salvation.

They teach that a person is saved by prayer. I could tell several incidents in which people were saved by prayer according to the Baptists. One Sunday night three boys, who were alien sinners, a preacher, and myself, all engaged in prayer until the boys arose and confessed that they were saved.

An alien sinner is not saved by prayer. John 9:31 says, "Now we know that God heareth not sinners, but if any man be a worshipper of God and doeth his will, him he heareth." It is God’s will that we "obey the gospel" (II Thess. 1:8) . The gospel commands us to be baptized into Christ "for the remission of sins." (Gal. 3:27; Acts 2:38). We have not done God’s will until we have been baptized into Christ. Hear Isaiah, "Your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid His face from you, that He will not hear." (Isa. 59:2). We are to pray for the lost, that’s true (Rom. 10:1), but the gospel, not prayer, "is the power of God unto salvation." (Rom. 1:16).

Paul says in II Cor. 5:11, "Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men." Some people try to persuade God to save the sinner, but Paul persuaded the sinner to obey God. God is willing to save all who will obey. (II Peter 3:9; Titus 2:11; I Tim. 2:4; Heb. 5:9). "God be thanked that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have OBEYED from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you, being THEN made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." (Romans 6:17-18).

10. Other denominations teach that sinners are saved by faith only.

They say, "All you have to do is believe, and He will save you." Article 5 of their Declaration of Faith, page 48, says that justification is "solely through faith." James says just the opposite, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24). Their doctrine of faith only breaks down on the chief rulers of John 12:42-43. "Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God." Were the chief rulers saved? If you say "yes," then you disagree with the Apostle John for he says, "every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God." (1 John 4:3). If you say they did not believe, then you disagree with the Apostle John again, for he says they "believed on Him." Sometimes Baptists try to dodge the force of this argument by saying they believed on, not in Him. The Greek is "eis," the strongest expression in this respect in the Greek language.

11. Other denominations do not administer Bible Baptism, they ignore the faith of parents, and they limit Baptism to the Age accountability etc.

Within the pages of the Holy Scriptures you will find that there are a number of different baptisms. These different forms of Baptism are listed below.

1) Baptism of repentance

2) Baptism into the body of Christ

3) Baptism in water

4) Baptism into the Holy Spirit

5) Baptism with Fire.

(Mark 16:16, Matthew 28:19, Luke 3:7-8, Luke 7:29-30, Luke 20:4, John 3:5, Romans 10: 9-13, Hebrews 10:22, Luke 12:50,Joel. 2:28, Romans 6:3-4, 1 Corinthians 1:13-17, 1 Corinthians 12:13, Galatians 3:27, Ephesians 5:26, Galatians 3:26-27, Acts 8:12-13, Acts 16:15, Acts 1:22)

John’s baptism is out of date. In Acts 19:1-5 we find where Paul re-baptized twelve men who had received John ' s baptism. Aquila and Priscilla took a preacher who knew "only the baptism of John" and "expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly." (Acts 18:24-26).

Baptists baptize people whom they claim already have received the remission of sins. "There is an actual, a real remission of sins when we believe in Christ--there is a declarative, formal, symbolic remission in baptism." (Baptist Church Manual, p. 13).

The Bible plainly states that baptism is FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS (Acts 2:38), or to wash away sins (Acts 22:16).

Baptists do not baptize a person into Christ, but rather, into the Baptist Church. They say any such person is in Christ before baptism. Hear Paul, "For as many of you as have been BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST have put on Christ." (Gal. 3:27) .

Baptist baptism must be on a condition that one is already saved. Bible baptism puts a person into Christ where salvation is. (1 Cor. 12:13; Col. 1:18; Eph. 1:3; II Cor. 5:17; Rom. 6:4; II Tim. 2:10).

Inasmuch as Christian baptism is "for the remission of sins," or to "wash away sins," and to get "into Christ," or "put on Christ," and Baptists do not administer Christian baptism, as has just been pointed out, then it follows that those who obeyed the Baptist plan of Salvation have missed the Lord ' s plan of Salvation, and they are therefore not members of the New Testament Church, the Body of Christ, and have not had their sins remitted, and are not saved.

Many members of other churches will say, "Oh but I know I’m saved." "Well, how do you know it?" "Oh, I just know it. I feel like I am." "What makes you feel like you are saved?" "Because I’m saved," they will say. Saved because they feel good, and feel good because they are saved? Such people prefer their feelings to anything the Bible says. I am not opposed to a person’s feeling good about being a Christian, but I am opposed to a person claiming to be a Christian just because he feels good. Feelings are based on faith. If you will study the scriptures with an open mind rather than through your feelings, you will then begin to feel differently. You will feel that you should turn from the human organization, the Baptist Church and obey the gospel of Christ because the Bible teaches you to do that. Don’t follow your feelings. FOLLOW THE BIBLE and FOLLOW CHRIST.

Where is this stated in the Bible? Not only will you not find this statement in the Bible, you will not find any of the phrases found in the Bible either. Show me where we even read the phrase, "accept Jesus." You will not find it. Show me where you will find the Bible say "personal Savior." You will not find it either. We ought to be concerned and see some red flags when we cannot find in the Bible the very phrases the religious world uses to teach people that they are saved. There must be a problem if I cannot find these things in the scriptures. Further, show me one example of someone accepting Jesus as their personal Savior. Not only will we not read in the Bible we are to accept Jesus as our personal Savior to be saved, but you do not read of any person saying that they did this. Further, I believe we need to ask what this phrase means? What does it mean to accept Jesus as your personal Savior? How do I accept Jesus as my personal Savior? But how does one do this? Can I simply say the words that I accept Jesus as my personal Savior? Is this enough? Can the criminal or murderer do nothing more than utter simple words? Is this all that the Lord requires of me for salvation? Not only does it go against the scriptures, but it goes against our logic. Do we allow our criminals under our legal system to simply say that they are sorry and we let them go free? No, that is completely unacceptable. The criminal has to change his life, show true contrition, and obey the laws of our government before consideration will be given to be released into society again. So why do we believe that God will simply overlook all wrongs by saying sorry? Why do we think that sorry is what God has required of us? When someone wrongs us, is a simple statement of words enough? No, we want to see more than that. We want to see repentance and change. Well, so does the Lord. We should not think that God is some sort of push over that we can do what we want and give a tongue in cheek sorry and everything will be okay.

All disciples are to be baptized. So Infants and children are disciples and hence they can be baptized. "And Jesus came and said to them, ' All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"(Matthew 28:18-19).

Paul places children within covenant which he does, not on the basis of their profession of faith but merely that of a believing parent. As he states "or the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy" (1 Corinthians 7:14). Given such things as: holiness, receiving biblical guidance, kingdom membership, and the ability to give God acceptable praise, it seems we cannot deny the status of disciple from the children of believers

It is clear that the blessing and promise of salvation were not just for adults, but for children as well. And Peter said to them, ‘Repent and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself’” (Acts 2:38,39) The children mentioned here were young enough to still be considered under the protection and authority of their parents. Although this is only indirect Scriptural evidence, the fact that the Bible mentions that entire “households” were baptized does make it seem probable that children and infants were included.

“Now I did baptize the household of Stephanas ...” (I Corinthians 1:16) (An angel spoke to Cornelius saying) “Send to Joppa, and have Simon, who is called Peter, brought here; and he shall speak words to you by which you will be saved, and all your household.” (Later, when Peter arrived at Cornelius’ household) “...he ordered them to be baptized.” (Acts 11:13b, 14; Acts 10:48a) “And when she (Lydia of Thyatira) and her household had been baptized...” (Acts 16:31, 33b)

The Bible never gives one example of the baptism of a Christian child as an adult, when a child’s capacity to believe the Gospel is developed enough so that he can receive baptism. Neither does the Bible state that every child is in a “suspended state of salvation” until they have reached this age, which one would have to believe if he held to the “age of accountability” theory.

As we know through one man sin is entered the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men.” (Romans 5:12) For this reason “...there are none righteous, not even one” (i.e. not infants). (Romans 3:10) how are these young ones saved from the sin they have received from Adam’s race? They are saved through the regenerative power of baptism and the faith of the Church.

“He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration (baptism) and renewing by the Holy Spirit.” (Titus 3:5)

Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.” (Acts 2:38) “Jesus answered, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.’” (John 3:5) “...when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water, and corresponding to that, baptism now saves you.” (I Peter 3:20,21)

Circumcision, the sign of God’s covenant between the people of Abraham and Himself, was performed on every male child who was eight days old (Genesis 7:12).

Many see a direct parallel between circumcision and Christian baptism in Scriptural passages such as Colossians 2:11,12:

“And in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of flesh by the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with Him in baptism...”

If baptism is the “New Testament circumcision” there can definitely be no objection to “sealing” the infant of a consecrated Christian family in Christ’s New Covenant.

b) Moses’ leading his people through the Red Sea is seen as an Old Testament foreshadowing of Christian baptism. The following New Testament passage clearly points to this:

“For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all at the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them, and that rock was Christ.” (I Corinthians 10:1-4).

It is worthwhile to note that “all were baptized” through Moses’ leadership in crossing over the Red Sea. He did not leave the infants or children on the shores of Egypt to become prey to the angry armies of Pharaoh because they were not old enough to believe in the promise of the Old Covenant. Rather, entrusted to the arms of their parents’ faith, they were carried through the “baptism of Moses.”

c) The saving of Noah’s entire family by the ark can also be seen as a foreshadowing of a baptism which includes infants. All that needs to be said, as in the case of Moses’ passing through the Red Sea, is that the entire family was on board the ark. Why should we leave infants out of the ark of baptism?

“And whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better from him if with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea.” (Mark 9:42)

“For behold, when the sound of your greeting (Theotokos) reached my ears (Elizabeth), the baby (John the Baptist) leaped in my womb for joy.” (Luke 1:44)

“Infants are baptized for the remission of sins. What sins? Whenever have they sinned? In fact, of course, never. And yet: ‘No one is free from defilement.’ (Job 14:4) But defilement is only put away by the mystery of baptism. That is the reason why infants too are baptized.”

There is ... one Lord, one faith, ONE baptism.” (Ephesians 4:4,5) If you have been baptized once, there is no need to be baptized again.

God includes the children of believers as members of this church.

The living God himself embraced the children of believers as members of his church. Genesis 17:7—"I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you."

Some Scriptures which support the possibility of an “infant faith” are:

“Yet Thou are He who didst bring me forth from the womb; Thou didst make me trust when upon my mother’s breast.” (Psalm 22:9)

“And whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better from him if with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea.” (Mark 9:42)

Christian parents, this means that you must actively nurture your children in the Christian faith. You may not treat your children as neutral until they are "old enough to make their own decision." In baptism, God has laid claim to your child. Thus, you must train your children to respond with faith and obedience to the Christ of the covenant. God deals with individuals, as well as with families. When God baptizes you into Christ, you become part of the Body of Christ, which is the worldwide family of God.

To get the full flavor of this truth, we ought to see the entire New Testament witness. Look at these verses one by one, remembering the normal meaning that any Jew or instructed Gentile would attach to the word "house" and let the cumulative force of these verses overwhelm you:

Matthew 10:12-14 "And when you go into a household, greet it. If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet."

Luke 19:9 "And Jesus said to him, ' Today salvation has come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham’ “ All baptized persons have a right to be instructed in the faith. The child down the street doesn’t have this right, but ours do. The parents have taken a vow to raise that child "in the nurture and the admonition of the Lord."

When a baptized person strays away, we don’t just let them go. They have a right to be exhorted, admonished, censured, removed from fellowship, and excommunicated as a last attempt to restore them to the flock. We do not pursue the children of the world in this way. But our own children have a right to this.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Current Events; Evangelical Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; globalwarminghoax; homosexualagenda; libertarians; medicalmarijuana; popefrancis; popery; romancatholicism; romanism
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 41-6061-8081-100 ... 321-330 next last
To: Rashputin

She’s a good gal and posts a lot of pro-life stuff, so I’m not trying to attack her, but these anti-protestant threads seem to get more numerous all the time.


61 posted on 06/27/2015 8:37:00 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (You can help: https://donate.tedcruz.org/c/FBTX0095/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 58 | View Replies]

To: MHGinTN
No, I’m asking you to focus upon the important point of being born from above. We can assume you are already born of water from your mother’s womb. Unless you are a computer program designed to formulate questions, only questions.

Please state the basis of the assumption. However, when one is born, there is a Father and a Mother. The Holy Spirit is male and so takes the role of father. The leaves open the question of who is the mother here. Miriam (Hebrew for Mary) translates as, amongst other things, water.
62 posted on 06/27/2015 8:37:08 PM PDT by ronnietherocket3 (Mary is understood by the heart, not study of scripture.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 59 | View Replies]

To: Morgana

The Biblical record differs from your claims:

The qualifications of apostleship are listed in scripture. These include being a witness of the resurrection, being personally taught by Christ, and having confirming signs of apostleship.

2 Corinthians 12:12
Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.

1 Corinthians 9:1
Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord?

Paul opposed Peter because Peter was wrong. This is not an opinion. It is scripture.

Galatians 2:11
Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed;

Paul said Peter and the other apostles added nothing to him. Further, Paul claimed to be an apostle to the Gentiles to same degree Peter was to the Jewish believers.

Romans 11:13
For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry.

Galatians 2:8
for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles

Galatians 2:6
But from those who seemed to be something—whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man—for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me.

Peter did not specify that his authority would pass to someone he mentored but rather wrote his doctrine and historical record so they would remain after his departure (i.e. death).

2 Peter 1:15
Moreover I will be careful to ensure that you always have a reminder of these things after my decease.

Apostolic authority was necessarily embodied in people as the early church began, but that authority was preserved for the church in the form of writings by the apostles. We have all of the apostolic authority we need in scripture.

Revelation praises the testing of apostolic claims. Even in the early church their were many such false claims. When put to the test, many were found to be liars.

Revelation 2:2
I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars.

Apostolic succession is false. It does not meet the requirements of apostleship. The Pope is NOT a witness to the resurrection of Christ. Those apostles who penned the New Testament were. Their record is one of eye witness testimony. This is an essential element of the gospel according to 1 Corinthians 15.

2 Corinthians 11:13
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:1-5
Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve.

For many years the Catholic church opposed the people having scripture in their own language. This so-called “church” murdered those who dared to give people scriptures they could read for themselves. Having failed to prevent people from having the Bible, this so-called “church” has claimed to have more authority than the Bible, and that the Bible cannot be understood without the “church” to explain it.

I do not need to try to make sense of the words of a foreign-language speaking idolatrous apostle impersonator who speaks from both sides of his mouth, wears long robes and loves being called Rabbi and Father, when I can read the words of Peter, John, and Paul for myself. The Bible lets me hear from the apostles. It has all of the apostolic authority we need.


63 posted on 06/27/2015 8:37:26 PM PDT by unlearner (RIP America, 7/4/1776 - 6/26/2015, "Only God can judge us now." - Claus Von Stauffenberg / Valkyrie)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ronnietherocket3

And you wonder why we cry blasphemy? You would elevate Mary to the level of the Spirit?

God is a Trinity, not a Trinity + Mary. Mary was blessed to carry Christ in her womb, but others have been blessed by God as well. Mary is a human, no different than you or me, needing a Savior just as you and I do. She has no special influence with God. Get over it.


64 posted on 06/27/2015 8:41:03 PM PDT by Mom MD
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 62 | View Replies]

To: Lee N. Field

What is wrong with me posting Scripture?

You are posting it. Is it OK for Protestants/non-Catholics to post Scripture, but not Catholics?

Not making sense to me.


65 posted on 06/27/2015 8:44:27 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: ronnietherocket3

The scriptures reveal themselves for you. Look at the passage in John 3. Follow the reasoning and see where the born of water AND born from above fit into the exhanges. Nicodemus even tried to not look at the implications of the spiritual meaning by referring to entering again into his mother and being born from her again. Are you familiar witht he amniotic fluid which gushes forth when birth is imminent? Jesus didn’t let Nicodemus stay at the carnal mind level of being birthed from the water in the mother. He took him immediately to the spiritual. I’m asking you if you can discern when the spiritual birthing happens. If it happens to you, you will know it. Do I need to post th epassage from John 3 with annotation?


66 posted on 06/27/2015 8:45:11 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Is it really all relative, Mister Einstein?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 62 | View Replies]

To: unlearner
Apostolic succession is false. It does not meet the requirements of apostleship.

Apostolic Succession is not a claim that the bishops are new Apostles.
67 posted on 06/27/2015 8:47:34 PM PDT by ronnietherocket3 (Mary is understood by the heart, not study of scripture.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 63 | View Replies]

To: ronnietherocket3
BTW, have you not read in the Bible that we are in His family by the Spirit of ADOPTION? It really would serve you well to read your Douay Rheims more often, with a system for doing so.
68 posted on 06/27/2015 8:47:43 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Is it really all relative, Mister Einstein?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 62 | View Replies]

To: Lee N. Field

I’m sorry. That was not meant for you.


69 posted on 06/27/2015 8:52:16 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 65 | View Replies]

To: Mom MD
You would elevate Mary to the level of the Spirit?

Where did I elevate Mary to the level of the Holy Spirit?

Mary was blessed to carry Christ in her womb,

So Mary was already the maternal counterpart to the Holy Spirit once, but saying it happens again in baptism is blasphemy.

Mary is a human, no different than you or me,

I find this statement odd coming from people who believe that the Bible Alone has authority. There appears to be a tendency to put the Apostles on a pedestal amongst humans because the Holy Spirit wrote the Word of God through them, yet Mary is not to be elevated when the Word of God was brought into the world through her.
70 posted on 06/27/2015 8:52:17 PM PDT by ronnietherocket3 (Mary is understood by the heart, not study of scripture.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 64 | View Replies]

To: MHGinTN

This explanation would be laughed off by entry level theologians.


71 posted on 06/27/2015 8:52:52 PM PDT by Steelfish
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: WVKayaker

What is wrong with me posting Scripture?

You are posting it. Is it OK for Protestants/non-Catholics to post Scripture, but not Catholics?

Not making sense to me.


72 posted on 06/27/2015 8:53:01 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: Steelfish

Yes, from the discussions at FR I can see that the catholic church is full of such sad creatures. Have you been through their seminary?


73 posted on 06/27/2015 8:54:31 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Is it really all relative, Mister Einstein?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 71 | View Replies]

To: ronnietherocket3

I do not put the apostles on pedestals.
all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God - you guys are the ones that put saints, apostles, popes, church fathers, and anyone else you can think of on a pedestal

And Mary is not the maternal counterpart of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit has no human counterpart. God is God and creatures are creatures. God can and does use humans to accomplish His will, but we are instruments, not counterparts or in any other way equal to God.


74 posted on 06/27/2015 8:55:19 PM PDT by Mom MD
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 70 | View Replies]

To: Mom MD
And Mary is not the maternal counterpart of the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 1, Jesus is described as a Child of the Holy Spirit. Mary is the Mother, the Holy Spirit is the Father. Unless there is some weird part of the Bible where children are conceived with only one parent, children must have a mother and a father. The only possible exception to this I know of is Jesus' birth from the father before all ages.
75 posted on 06/27/2015 9:03:06 PM PDT by ronnietherocket3 (Mary is understood by the heart, not study of scripture.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 74 | View Replies]

To: Elsie

Hey old cow, does this tripe sound familiar?


76 posted on 06/27/2015 9:05:15 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Is it really all relative, Mister Einstein?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 75 | View Replies]

To: ronnietherocket3

Mary is the mother only of Jesus human body. She is not the mother of His divine side. There is a big difference.


77 posted on 06/27/2015 9:06:34 PM PDT by Mom MD
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 75 | View Replies]

To: MHGinTN
The scriptures reveal themselves for you. Look at the passage in John 3. Follow the reasoning and see where the born of water AND born from above fit into the exhanges. Nicodemus even tried to not look at the implications of the spiritual meaning by referring to entering again into his mother and being born from her again. Are you familiar witht he amniotic fluid which gushes forth when birth is imminent? Jesus didn’t let Nicodemus stay at the carnal mind level of being birthed from the water in the mother. He took him immediately to the spiritual. I’m asking you if you can discern when the spiritual birthing happens. If it happens to you, you will know it. Do I need to post th epassage from John 3 with annotation?

Genesis 1:2: And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
78 posted on 06/27/2015 9:16:08 PM PDT by ronnietherocket3 (Mary is understood by the heart, not study of scripture.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 66 | View Replies]

To: Morgana
Ephesians 5:6-7 "The Scribes and Pharisees have sat on the chair of Moses. ALL things, therefore, that they command you, observe and do. But do not act according to their works; for they talk but do nothing.” Matthew 23:2-3. This is a command to be obedient regardless of individual feelings, and it comes from Jesus Christ.

Congratulations, besides the plethora of other poor pro-papal polemics in this prolix pasted propaganda, you have just effectively nuked the NT church.

For to be consistent with your interpretation of this text as requiring obedience regardless of individual feelings, then all 1st century souls should have submitted to the judgment of those who sat in the seat of Moses, as you require of souls to Rome. Which invalidates the NT church!

Yet the church actually began in dissent from those who sat in the seat of Moses over Israel, (Mt. 23:2) who were the historical instruments and stewards of Scripture, "because that unto them were committed the oracles of God," (Rm. 3:2) to whom pertaineth" the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises" (Rm. 9:4) of Divine guidance, presence and perpetuation as they believed, (Gn. 12:2,3; 17:4,7,8; Ex. 19:5; Lv. 10:11; Dt. 4:31; 17:8-13; Ps, 11:4,9; Is. 41:10, Ps. 89:33,34; Jer. 7:23)

And instead they followed an itinerant Preacher whom the magisterium rejected, and whom the Messiah reproved them Scripture as being supreme, (Mk. 7:2-16) and established His Truth claims upon scriptural substantiation in word and in power, as did the early church as it began upon this basis. (Mt. 22:23-45; Lk. 24:27,44; Jn. 5:36,39; Acts 2:14-35; 4:33; 5:12; 15:6-21;17:2,11; 18:28; 28:23; Rm. 15:19; 2Cor. 12:12, etc.)

79 posted on 06/27/2015 9:18:42 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Morgana

Why I am not Protestant (Non-Denominational, Baptist, Pentecostal, etc)

Why I am not a Catholic

(Alexandrian:

Coptic Rite

Ethiopic Rite

Antiochian:

Maronite Rite

(West) Syrian Rite

Malankara Rite

Armenian Rite:

Armenian Rite

Chaldean or East Syrian:

Chaldean Rite

Syro-Malabar Rite

Byzantine Rite (Constantinopolitan):

Byzantine

Latin (Western) liturgical rites:

Roman Rite

Pre-Tridentine Mass (the various pre-1570 forms)

Tridentine Mass

Mass of Paul VI (

Anglican Use

Ambrosian Rite

Rite of Braga

Mozarabic Rite

Catholic Order Rites (generally defunct):

Benedictine Rite

Carmelite Rite

Carthusian Rite

Cistercian Rite

Dominican Rite

Franciscan Rite

Friars Minor Capuchin Rite

Premonstratensian Rite

Servite Rite

Catholic autonomous particular Churches:

Latin Church with Latin liturgical traditions

Eastern Catholic Churches

Alexandrian liturgical tradition:

Coptic Catholic Church

Ethiopian Catholic Church

Eritrean Catholic Church

Antiochian liturgical tradition:

Maronite Church

Syrian Catholic Church

Syro-Malankara Catholic Church

Armenian liturgical tradition:

Armenian Catholic Church

Chaldean or East Syrian liturgical tradition:

Chaldean Catholic Church

Syro-Malabar Catholic Church

Byzantine liturgical tradition:

Albanian Byzantine Catholic Church

Belarusian Greek Catholic Church

Bulgarian Greek Catholic Church

Byzantine Church of Croatia, Serbia and Montenegro

Greek Byzantine Catholic Church

Hungarian Greek Catholic Church

Italo-Albanian Catholic Church

Macedonian Greek Catholic Church

Melkite Greek Catholic Church

Romanian Church United with Rome, Greek-Catholic

Russian Greek Catholic Church

Ruthenian Catholic Church

Slovak Greek Catholic Church

Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church)

Partial list of contrasts between the New Testament church and Roman Catholicism.

Leadership

NT church

Commentary (a short summary, as by God's grace, defenders of Rome have been refuted time and time again into silence or there recourse to spitwads, as can be shown).


No apostles elected by voting.

No successors after Judas, with the only continuously perpetuated pastoral office by way of ordination being that of presbuteros/episkopos.

Peter as as non-assertive street-level leader among the 11, with no succession or preparation for one.

No corporate view of Peter as their first of supreme infallible popes in Rome.

Nowhere in the NT, interpretive of Mt. 16:18, is Peter called or described as the Rock upon which the church was built.

No leadership claiming/possessing ensured perpetual infallibility.

No leadership with unique sacrificial function, offering food as sacrifice.

No leadership distinctively titled “hiereus” (priests): only presbuteros/ episkopos (same office: Titus 1:5-7).

No leadership with unique sacrificial function, offering food as sacrifice.

The primary function of pastors was that of prayer and preaching the word of God.

No required celibacy for leadership. Most were married.

There were no apostolic successors after Judas, which was (in order to maintain foundational number of apostles (cf. Rv. 21:14) and which was by the non-political Scriptural means of casting lots. (cf. Prov. 16:33)

Peter was the initial, non-assertive street-level leader among the 11, once even listed after James (who provided the conclusive judgment in Acts 15) in Gal. 2 as one of 3 present who appeared to be pillars. To whom Rome's ensured perpetual formulaic infallibility is nowhere promised, and in contrast holy (he was) Peter was the only apostle directly publicly rebuked.

No succession for Peter or preparation for one is seen in the NT, an incongruous conspicuous omission for a cardinal doctrine, while ordination of leaders is described and taught. For the only continuously perpetuated pastoral office (unless deacons are included) by way of formal ordination was that of presbuteros (senior/elder) or episkopos (superintendent/overseer), both of which refer to those in the same office. (Titus 1:5-7)

Nowhere is the church described as looking to Peter as the first of a line of supreme infallible heads in Rome, nor told to even in any of the church epistles or in the Lord's commendations and criticisms of the 7 churches of Asia.

Nowhere interpretive of Mt. 16:18 is Peter called or described as the Rock upon which the church was built. Instead, that the LORD Jesus is the Rock (“petra”) or "stone" (“lithos,” and which denotes a large rock in Mk. 16:4) upon which the church is built is one of the most abundantly confirmed doctrines in the Bible (petra: Rm. 9:33; 1Cor. 10:4; 1Pet. 2:8; cf. Lk. 6:48; 1Cor. 3:11; lithos: Mat. 21:42; Mk.12:10-11; Lk. 20:17-18; Act. 4:11; Rm. 9:33; Eph. 2:20; cf. Dt. 32:4, Is. 28:16) including by Peter himself. (1Pt. 2:4-8)

Nowhere is leadership/magisterial office promised ensured perpetual infallibility. RCs extrapolate support for this out of promises of God's presence and preservation, but which Israel has as well. They also hold that an infallible magisterium is essential to know what is of God (writing and men) and their meaning, but which was never required before, and is contrary to how the church began.

Nowhere is leadership distinctively titled “hiereus” (priests), which distinctive title is only used for Jewish and pagan priests. Catholics try to defend the use of priests by relying on an <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymological_fallacy ">etymological fallacy </a>, since "priest," from old English "preost," etymologically is derived from "presbyteros," but which is not what the latter means. Instead the use of the title priests was a latter development due to imposed functional equivalence, supposing NT presbyteros engaged in a unique sacrificial ministry as a primary function, which they did not.

Nowhere is leadership even shown distributing food as part of their specific ordained function, (Acts 6:3,4) and is nowhere is the Lords' Supper shown to be led by priests conducting it, let alone offering it as a sacrifice for sins to be consumed to obtain eternal life. The command to “do this in memory of Me” is nowhere shown to be specifically and uniquely given to leadership, let alone a class titled “priests.”

The primary function of pastors was that of prayer and preaching the word of God, (Acts 6:3,4) which is said to "nourish" the souls of believers, and believing it is how the lost obtain life in themselves. (1 Timothy 4:6; Psalms 19:7;Acts 15:7-9)

Nowhere is celibacy a requirement for leadership, as in contrast marriage was the norm for pastors, include most of the apostles. Paul and Barnabas under a vow to stay single. (1Cor. 9:4; 1Tim. 3:1-7)

The Lord's Supper

The Lord's Supper is ordained as an ordinance by which that believers remember the Lord's death and show fellowship with Christ by a commemorative shared meal.

Nowhere is spiritual life obtaining by literally eating anything physical. Instead, spiritual life is obtained by hearing and believing the gospel of grace.

Nowhere, interpretive of of the gospels, is the Lord's Supper itself described as offering for sin, or to be consumed in order to obtain essential spiritual life. Instead is only described in one epistle and in which it is analogous to pagans having fellowship with their gods, not by consuming their flesh, but by the communal meal done in dedication to the object of worship.

By which believers remember the Lord's death and fellowship with Christ by a commemorative communal meal, sharing food in recognition of each other being part of the body of Christ which He purchased with His own sinless shed blood.

Only the metaphorical See here. By God's grace.

Nowhere is spiritual life obtaining by literally eating anything physical, as per transubstantiation. Spiritual life is obtained by hearing and believing the gospel of grace, which is said to "nourish" the souls of believers and build them up (1 Timothy 4:6; Acts 20:32)

Baptism

Baptism is ordained by which souls confess the Lord Jesus, identifying with Him in His death by full immersion.

It is the faith behind baptism that purifies the heart, not the act itself effecting it.

Nowhere are any infants manifestly described as being baptized.

Souls confess and identify with the Lord Jesus in baptism by full immersion, as that alone corresponds to burial (as a liquid grave) and is what the Greek word means. (Acts 8:38; Rm. 6:1ff)

It is the faith behind baptism that purifies the heart, as Peter preached and described, (Acts 10:43; 15:7-9) not the act itself effecting it. As baptism requires and evidences faith, so it is promised that those who will repent and baptized will be saved, just as whosoever shall call upon the Lord, who believe in their heart and confess with their mouth faith in the gospel are promised salvation. (Rm. 10:9-13)

Nowhere are any infants manifestly described as being baptized, the stipulated requirements for which are repentance and wholehearted faith. (Acts 2:38; 8:36,37) .

Gospel and soteriology

Preached the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus, the Son of God, and forgiveness of sins and regeneration by the Spirit of God by faith, which is counted for righteousness, but which is a faith that is (normally) confessed first in baptism.

Believers are promised forgiveness of sins and regeneration by the Spirit of God by faith in the Lord Jesus who died for us and whom God raised up. As a result, their faith (a living faith, such as is confessed in baptism and following the Lord) is counted for righteousness, and the believer is washed, sanctified and justified on account of thew sinless and perfect Christ, not their own righteousness. (Rm. 3:10- 5:1; 1Cor. 6:11; Eph. 2:8,9; Titus 3:5)

The merit of works is excluded as the basis for justification, with “works of the law” usually being used as that is the epitome of salvation by merit. "If there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law." (Galatians 3:21) When Abraham believed God to do what he could not do then it was counted unto him for righteousness, though he had done works before that. Likewise we must believe God to do what we cannot not do, that is, to justify ourselves by becoming good enough to be with God, which God does by imputation of righteousness by faith in the Jesus Christ the righteous.

In contrast, Catholicism teaches that the one is formally justified by his own holiness, first effected by the act of baptism, leaving the subject holy enough to be with God. Thus Rome holds that most believers must spend an indeterminate postmortem time suffering “purifying torments” in mythical “Purgatory” until the subject becomes good enough, free of character defects, to be with God (and atone for sins).

Works/holiness do have a justificatory effect, that of justifying one as being a believer, and fit to be rewarded under grace, with God rewarded faith in recognition of its works, (Mt. 25:31-40; Heb. 6:9,10; 10:35; Rv. 3:4) even though in conversion, man is both enabled and motivated (Jn. 6:44; 16:8-11; 12:32; Acts 11:18; 16:14; Eph. 2:8,9) to do what he otherwise could not and would not do, and then enables and motivates the believer to live for God. (Phil. 2:13; 1Co. 11:32)

However, believers can choose to sin, and are warned against having an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God, falling from grace, drawing back into perdition, making Christ of no effect/profit, falling from grace. (Heb. 3:12; 10:38; Gal. 5:1-4) Thus God works to chasten wayward souls to repentance, lest they “be condemned with the rest of the world.” (1Co. 11:32

Afterlife

All true believers go to be with the Lord at death or at His return, the latter being the next transformative effect believers look to. After which is the only suffering believers will realize, that being the loss of rewards.

What Scripture teaches wherever it manifestly speaks about the next life, is that since believers are forgiven on account of Christ, on His merit, then all true believers presently are “accepted in the Beloved,” and made to sit together with Christ in the heavenly, (Eph. 1:6;2:6) and go to be with the Lord at death or at His return. it is always with the Lord. (Lk. 23:43 [cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7]; Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17) Note in the latter case all believers were assured that if the Lord returned, which they expected in their lifetime, so would they “ever be with the Lord.” (1Thes. 4:17) though they were still undergoing growth in grace, as was Paul. (Phil. 3;2)

And which is the next transformative event believers look to, that of being conformed to Christ. (2Cor. 5:2,3; 1Cor. 15; 1Jn. 3:2)

At/after which coming ( versus purgatory, which has souls suffering upon death) believers at the judgment seat of Christ (1Cor. 3:8ff; 4:5; 2Tim. 4:1,8; Rev.11:18; Mt. 25:31-46; 1Pt. 1:7; 5:4) will gain or lose rewards based on the quality of the material they used to build the church with, which loss is only (and momentary) suffering (along with the grievous displeasure of the Lord) believers will realize after leaving this world.

Scripture also only reveals growth in grace and overcoming and prolonged suffering as being realized in this world, with its temptations and trials, (1 Peter 1:6-7; 1Jn.2:14; 5:4,5; Rv. 2.7,11,17,26; 3:5,12,21) where alternatives to submitting to God can be made (suffering itself does not make one mature) and thus it was here that the Lord Himself was made “perfect,” (Heb. 2:10) as in being “in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.” (Heb. 4:15)

Scripture

Scripture is manifest as being the transcendent supreme standard for obedience and testing and establishing truth claims as the wholly Divinely inspired and assured, Word of God.

Scriptural substantiation in word and in power was the basis for the veracity of Truth claims.

Never supported or made laws that restricted personal reading of Scripture by laity

It is abundantly evidenced that the word of God/the Lord was normally written, even if sometimes subsequent to being spoken, and that as written, the written word of God became the transcendent supreme standard for obedience and testing and establishing truth claims as the wholly Divinely inspired and assured, Word of God.

And which testifies (Lk. 24:27,44; Acts 17:2,11; 18:28; 28:23, etc.) to writings of God being recognized and established as being so (essentially due to their unique and enduring heavenly qualities and attestation), and thus they materially provide for a canon of Scripture (as well as for reason, the church, etc.)

Scriptural substantiation in word and in power was the basis for Truth claims, not the premise of ensured papal/magisterial infallibility, which is nowhere seen or promised nor necessary to preserve faith.

Never supported or made laws that restricted personal reading of Scripture by laity as per Rome, if available, sometimes even outlawing it when it was.

Oral tradition

Oral “tradition” was that of orally preaching Scriptural Truths, as a Sola Scriptura preacher is to do, while it also included new revelation as well as wholly inspired preaching of the word of God.

Nowhere was the veracity of oral tradition based upon the premise of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility.

Oral “tradition” was that of orally preaching Scriptural Truths by the whole church,(Acts 8:4) as a Sola Scriptura preacher is to do, while it also included new revelation and Divinely revealed Truths as the wholly inspired preaching word of God (which is uniquely powerful: Heb. 4:12). neither of which Rome claims to do (she claims her oral tradition is inspired, but not the written promulgation of it).

Nowhere was the veracity of oral tradition based upon the the novel and unScriptural premise of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility as per Rome, but Scripture was the standard by which all was tested by. (Acts 17:11)

Prayer

Prayer directly to God by the blood of Christ, who is the only heavenly intercessor between God and man.

Never prayed to any created beings in Heaven.

Nowhere in all of Scripture, with its over 200 recorded prayers, did any believer pray to anyone else in Heaven by God, who alone is shown to be able to hear and personally respond multitudinous prayers to Heaven. The Lord's own instructions on prayer was to “Our Father who art in Heaven,” to whom the Spirit in believers cries out to, never “Our Mother.”

Communication between created beings always required both to be in the same realm, even if via a vision.

Christ is taught as being the only and wholly sufficient and accessible heavenly intercessor between God and man. (1Tim. 2:5; Heb. 2:18 4:14-16)

Mary

Mary simply presented as a holy devout vessel of God, used to provide the body God had prepared for His Divine Son, whom she owed her existence to.

No prayers were made to her, while she prayed directly to the Lord, nor are many other things taught of her that are said of the Mary of Catholicism.

Mary presented as a holy vessel of God used to provide the body God had prepared, (Heb. 10:5) owing her very breath to the Son of God who was incarnated through her, (Jn. 1:1-3) and whom she was a mother to. Which Christ said all obedient believers were.

Scripture never records her as a women who never sinned, and or as a perpetual virgin despite being married (contrary to the normal description of marriage, as in leaving and sexually cleaving), nor as one who would be bodily assumed to Heaven and exalted (officially or with implicit sanction) as the Queen of Heaven, as an almost almighty demigoddess.

Scripture does not teach the Mary of Catholicism, to whom "Jesus owes His Precious Blood" to. Whose [Mary] merits we are saved by; who "had to suffer, as He did, all the consequences of sin;" whose power now "is all but unlimited," "surpassing in power all the angels and saints in Heaven," so much that she "seems to have the same power as God," that “even God himself, is subject to the Blessed Virgin” since her prayers and requests are as commands, and that "the Holy Spirit acts only by the Most Blessed Virgin, his Spouse," and that “sometimes salvation is quicker if we remember Mary's name then if we invoked the name of the Lord Jesus," and who (obviously) cannot "be honored to excess."

Worship

Worship was to God alone, with such things as making supplication to other being in heaven being idolatry.

Worship was to be to God alone in spirit and in Truth, (Jn. 4:24) with ascribing uniquely Divine attributes to created beings, including the ability to hear and personally respond to prayer in Heaven, and bowing down as before them (or their representative images) and making supplication to them, constituting idolatry, (Jer. 44; Acts 7:43) even if it was an instrument used by God. (Num. 21:9; 2Ki. 18:4)

Miscl.

• “Saints” denoted all believers.

God was distinctive from that of the known God of pagans.

Did not rule over those without, nor use the sword of men for church purposes.

The NT never called a separate class of believers “saints,” which term denoted all believers.

Never taught that the deity Muslims worship (who is not as an "unknown god") is the same as theirs.

Never used the sword of men to deal with its theological dissenters, as instead disfellowship and the spiritual power was their recourse, and relegated dealing with those without the church to being outside their realm. (1Cor. 5:4,5,11-13; 1Tim. 1:20)


80 posted on 06/27/2015 9:19:11 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 41-6061-8081-100 ... 321-330 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson