Posted on 06/21/2015 8:10:26 AM PDT by RnMomof7
Additionally, the Rheims bible changed the article from hē ἡ or The departure, to 'a revolt'.
And it's only the beginning. It's going to be a rough road for Catholics.
2Thess2: 1-8 Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to him, we ask you not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction, he who opposes and exalts himself against all that is called God or that is worshiped; so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself up as God. 5 Don't you remember that, when I was still with you, I told you these things? Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season. For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way. Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and destroy by the manifestation of his coming; [WEB]
There is a comma placed (yes, I know when the punctuations were added) between the clauses, telling readers these are two connected but distinct clauses for the same broader issue. The clause citing 'The Departure' is superior to the 'man of sin revealed'. we may make this discernment because Paul connects the removal of the restrainer to the revealing of the man of sin in the following verses. The Restrainer indwells The Church in ths Age, and when Christ gathers the wedding party the indwelling Spirit will be moved out of the way of the man of sin. The Holy Spirit indwelling believers will be ended, though His Spirit will still be around harvesting souls during the Tribulation to follow the snatching away of the Bride indwelt by His Spirit.
Scoff all you like. I have a few provisions you will be welcome to scavenge following the departure with My Lord's Bridal party. You will find them handy in the hellish environment His Bride will be taken away from.
Oh really?
646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."[http://biblehub.com/greek/646.htm}
You post verse 4 as if it's tied to "apostasia". Verse 3 says this.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
That and in there shows it to be 2 separate and distinct happenings. Trying to tie the word "apostasia" to the man of lawlessness is totally wrong.
>>You don’t even have to be a scholar to see what the word meant.<<
Are you claiming to be a better Greek scholar than Strong as I showed above?
Also, please show where the term “the man of apostasy” is written in scripture.
Acts 21:21 was talking about a departure from the teaching of being circumcised.
But to insert a pretrib rapture in 2 Thess. 2, is to read into scripture something that isn't there. Jesus set the bar back in Matt. 24, no pretrib rapture there, Paul is merely following Jesus in 2 Thess. 2.
I quote here one of the foremost scholars of ancient times was Irenaeus, I am convinced he knew Greek at least as well as MHGinTN... and the pretrib preachers he follows! He said:
"The apostle thus speaks in the second Epistle to the Thessalonians: 'Unless there shall come [apostasia] first, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself as if he were God. The apostle therefore clearly points out his apostasy, and that he is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped... he will endeavor in a tyrannical manner to set himself forth as God."
Don’t know Greek, so need to ask if it an entirely different term or as different as happy is to happily? Just wondering, and if it is used in any other historic texts for context?
They are told they will be kept from even the hour of the testing, not just the testing. The seven years of Tribulation are the 'hour of testing'.
Now back to our program, 'Taking his seat in the temple of Gpd' ...
Nouns in Koine Greek derive from the verbs. The first few bibles had the definite article ‘the’ in front of the ‘apostasi’. so we know immediately this refers to a specific thing or event. When the word is changed along with the article to an indefinite article “a” the meaning is blurred out from the original intent. The use in Acts 21:21 refers to a process whereas in 2Thess2:3 it refers to a specific thing or event.
Yes, but it is a departure from teaching, so is the word “departure” used to translate the same Greek word? If so, then we are witnesses of a great departure from the teaching of Truth. In fact, today it is taught that there is no absolute truth bringing with it a hatred of The Truth and His followers of every nation, tribe, tongue, and people.
That is in fact an excellent notion. It can be valued as a teacher for our epoch. As used in 2Thess2:3 the meaning could be as you infer. However, we have the passages following that verse which point to the restrainer being removed. The Restrainer is the Holy Spirit Who indwells the Bride of Christ, The Church.
James Strong wrote his famous concordance in 1890, he thus could have been a pretribber, the influence of Darbyism was considerable by that time. Was he a pretribber, I don’t know, he may have been one of those who rejected Darby’s pretrib rapture, for all we know, many in England did.
At any rate, I rather doubt we can use his concordance as the last word on 2 Thess. 2:3. Like I said, the context of 2 Thess. 2 literally bristles with evidence as to what Paul meant. Not to mention men like Irenaeus, who knew Greek quite well, I’d say.
I think it’s folly to pit James Strong against men like Justin Martyr and Irenaeus. For all we know, were he to join this thread, we might find him siding with Irenaeus.
"For all the saints and elect of God are gathered prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our siin." ['On The Last Times, the Antichrist and the End of the World' Ephraem of Nisibis (Ephraem The Syrian)]
You find that command in Matt. 24:13, the command to endure to the end. What end? The end the disciples asked him about in verse 3. The disciples there tied that "end," "the end of the world," or the end of the age, to Christ's 2nd coming. In answer to their question, so did Christ... throughout the discourse, including verse 13. The "end of the age" in his discourse, being "immediately after the tribulation of those days," verses 29-31.
Like I said in previous post, there is no pretrib rapture in Matt. 24, Paul merely follows Jesus in 2 Thess. 2.
CynicalBear wants to pit James Strong against Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, you want to pit Ephraem against Justin Martyr and Irenaeus. Ephraem is Pseudo-Ephraim, pseudo meaning false. The mass of historical evidence is against the Pretribs, neither Strong nor Pseudo-Ephraim can tip the balance.
I apologize again to FReepers for assisting the hijacking of this thread. I leave it to MHGinTN and CB to continue the hijacking. Later alligator.
Pseudo-Ephraim = Pseudo-Ephraem
How very specious of you. Is not the thread addressing ‘taking his seat in the temple of God’ as in the antichrist at mid tribulation? Yeah, don’t like seeing it in perspective eh?
What particular verses are the central focus of the thread, smarty? Who is served by trying to sow deceit?
I use dispensations as a tool to help organize reasoning. The Olivet6 Discourse to which you refer is given regarding the actual end times as spoken of by Daniel the Prophet. The discernment for this is found in what prompted Jesus to launch into the teaching of James, John, Andrew and Peter regarding the destruction of Jerusalem. As such we can reason that Jesus is address specifically the future of Jerusalem and Israel. The seven years of tribulation are all about God ending His dealing with sin and Israel. The Jews are even the ones evangelizing the world during that horrific period of Tribulation. Today, there is no differentiation between Jew and Gentile in the Church. During the dispensation of Tribulation the Jews specifically will be the evangelists.
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