Posted on 05/22/2015 4:54:44 PM PDT by OK Sun
This is not what I have been saying but it brings up an interesting question in my mind. Let me ask you and others a question: if you could give God 100% control of your life would you do it? And, if so, then wouldn't you be merely a "puppet" of God? If not, why wouldn't you give God control?
'Since you are not sovereign in your existence then you have all to boast of because your god made you for salvation while making others for hell. What a mystery that you even bother 'going into all the world to share the Gospel of God's Grace in Christ'
You assume that everyone wants to go to heaven. We share the gospel to others because we commissioned by our Lord Jesus to do so. Now whether anyone listens to what I have to say or calls me a quack, heretic or something worst; it doesn't matter. As long as I'm faithful in spreading what I happen to know is truth based upon what the scriptures teaches and in alignment with historical traditions (e.g. not Catholic traditions mind you).
In all seriousness and with a humility I cannot even express in writing, if you are not given sovereignty over your choices then none of the other items in life amount to anything greater than puppeteering you along a timeline.
Leaving aside the "puppeteering" charge for a while, this statement is where your error is and often why I'm so opposed to "free will". I can trace any heretical view back to "free will". Please note the denial of God's sovereignty over His creation in your statement. You believe that God has given you some of His sovereign powers. How much of His sovereignty did God give you?
Sorry, but I have never believed that God gave up any of His sovereign rights. He is the Master of the Universe and in total control. To think that God acquiesce partial control is not scriptural.
Joh_2:24 But Jesus on his part did not entrust himself to them, because he knew all people
The important part is that he called for them. And even the animals.
(1) FIRST, I have not denied God's Sovereignty over His Creation. That is just plain false. In fact I have affirmed His Sovereignty and nothing I have suggested to you is to the contrary. Don't frame a falsehood over what I have posted, so that you can try and attack your own mischaracterization.
(2) Second, you are apparently unable to comprehend that when God gives us free will and thus freedom to choose to love Him or not that such a GIFT subtracts nothing from God's Sovereignty.I will presume that you love someone, some other human being not you, so do you lose something of yourself when you love someone who is not you? Is something subtracted from you when you love someone else? The Bible teaches that in fact when we love others, it adds to us!
What Jesus gave as the two great commandments are absurdities if we believe we have no choice but to love God and love our neighbors, especially if love subtracts from us, somehow! To even entertain the lie that in loving someone else we lose something of our self is a lie whispered straight from the sulfurous mouth of satan!
(3) And third, God gave me NONE of His sovereignty in the sense of subtracting something from Him, because I cannot step outside of the Universe He created to exercise any degree of omnipotence over what He is Sovereign. even as I am free to choose to love Him or not, I have subtracted no sovereignty from Him in either act.
He created me in love, such that I may choose to love Him. Early int he letter to the Romans, God tells us that even the creation itself bears witness to His existence and the beauty of His work shows His love for us. John 3:16 says God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever ... Had he not created me with the ability to choose to love Him then we are but puppets, lead soldiers placed upon a game board. What God declares as His living Love for us becomes not a gift at all if we have no choice but to take it. It becomes a command, and commands are not delivered for love they are delivered for obedience. But of course if we start down the road of comprehending obedience before we learn what Gift means, well, that's grist for another mill.
If you cannot, or refuse to, see the reality of that cross being a gift offered to a free will because you somehow feel more secure in the notion that God created you with no choices in your destiny, then I can see how you have yet to comprehend the 'love letter' that is The Word made flesh Who dwelt among us.
You asked, "... if you could give God 100% control of your life would you do it?" Are you so dense that you don't yet realize God being the Creator and the attentive Sovereign of His Creation ALWAYS has the means to take 100% control, but --and this is crucial for you to understand, as it is fundamental to what the Bible teaches from cover to cover-- though God can take 100% control of results at any moment in any life at any place in The Universe, He has chosen in His Grace to not do so, so that you or I can have the illimitable treasure of His Life if we by our free will choose to accept it.
For the sake of the following thought experiment, assume that I have billions in my bank accounts. If I take $1000 out of your checking account merely on my own whim and offer it to you as a free gift, is it a gift? ... If I take $1000 out of my checking account and offer it to you as a free gift, is it a gift? What if you choose not to take what I offer from my account, is it any less an offered gift? Now apply the following clue: if I own the bank in which you have your checking account, what does that do to the first notion where I take from your account and offer it to you as a gift?
So you don't have to strain at gnats and swallow camels, I'll explain it to you: if I own the money in your checking account and offer it to you as if a gift, I'm not offering you a gift, I'm just showing my power over all the money in the bank.
Let's try a more difficult concept now ... If you fall in love with someone, are you going to demand they love you back? Can you compel them to do so just because you demand it? Well, you say, demanding someone love you to get their love is not in your power to do. You cannot force another human being to love you, but you believe God can do just that. You have based you premise in this thread on the notion that God forces love from you toward Him. Now you might object, asserting that I am changing the focal point, but did you not just pose a question to me that has at it's basis the notion that I have a right to choose: "if you could give God 100% control of your life would you do it?" Isn't your question absurd if I have no free will to give such control? Do you yet see how the notion you would have me accept makes 'giving', 'gifts', 'redemption', and 'love' non sequiturs?
If you want to be but an automaton predestined to whichever fate comes, no one, not even God will stop you from plunging into the abyss. BUT, if you choose to take His offered nail-scarred hand and be pulled away from the abyss, you will have, immediately, eternal life in Him. If you choose to argue with Him over offering you a gift, then you will be led astray by the one who is appointed as accuser of the brethren. God offers the gift of Salvation, now, at the moment you read these words. Please accept it as His Graceful Gift to you, for when you do accept the gift you magnify His Son Who died for you and died for any WHO WILL ACCEPT The Grace of God in Christ. If you wander off muttering to yourself that God is Sovereign and you really have no choice to make except what the strings upon you dictate, then you will lose this opportunity to have the gift, for your denial that you must choose, well that denial denies His Son the Glory in His work for you.
I write of course to those who read this essay, not just to you, HarleyD, for I do not know your heart, only God does. A promise from God is not a Promise if He gives no room to accept it or not to, it become a command not a Promise.
Paul taught us that the law was given as a schoolmaster, to teach us. Teach us what? Well, teach us just how far off the mark of His Righteousness we are. Then God offers, by His Grace toward us, the means to acquire His righteousness! Did Jesus expect the lawyer questioning Him about which commandment was greatest to have achieved in his lifetime the full measure of those two points of Love? No, not even! If to Love God or love our neighbor is not done because we can choose not to do so, then it is not love. And if we do not every day in every way and for an entire lifetime, with unbroken perfection, carry out these two Commandments, what is God's verdict toward us? And what has He made as a provision to 'escape' the verdict punishment? The two Great Commandments are defining God's character. The Ten Commandments are defining God's character. If you could live an entire life reflecting ONLY God's character, would you need a Savior? The Commandments are given to show you your inability with your free will to live as God exhibiting the character of God. God has chosen to write His character, His commandments, upon your heart, by FAITH, faithing in His Promises.
God calls to us all-everyday in all creation. The important part isn't that He calls to us. The important part is that we're unresponsive.
You stated in post #855 the following:
Here is what the London Baptist Confession states about "free will":
1._____ God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty and power of acting upon choice, that it is neither forced, nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil. ( Matthew 17:12; James 1:14; Deuteronomy 30:19 )
2._____ Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which was good and well-pleasing to God, but yet was unstable, so that he might fall from it. ( Ecclesiastes 7:29; Genesis 3:6 )
3._____ Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto. ( Romans 5:6; Romans 8:7; Ephesians 2:1, 5; Titus 3:3-5; John 6:44 )
4._____ When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin, and by his grace alone enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so as that by reason of his remaining corruptions, he doth not perfectly, nor only will, that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil. ( Colossians 1:13; John 8:36; Philippians 2:13; Romans 7:15, 18, 19, 21, 23 )
5._____ This will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone in the state of glory only. ( Ephesians 4:13 )
Have a nice evening.
I have and will only make one comment on the issue of free will. Are you going to take the credit and the glory for having chosen Christ or is that credit and glory due God alone?
Exactly the right question to ask.
I have a question of my own.
Do you pray for unbelievers to be saved? Why? If you do so you are asking God to violate their free will.
The poster to whom I have been responding tells me that God compels us to love Him. That's not love, that's not wooing, that's puppeteering. To assert that God forces us to be saved or not saved does violence to the Great Grace of God in Christ's sacrificing Himself for us. If man has no choice but to accept or reject the Gift, then it is no gift, it is but an act in a game played with automatons. THAT is not the God of the Bible nor the Plan of Salvation as God has shown it to us.
Let's not shift to 'the glory' just yet. To God is The Glory for He calleth us. Faithful is He that calleth us for He will also do it. Do what? Save us, seal us with His Spirit, sanctify us as we submit our will to His transforming Spirit within ('let God be God in you').
Except God's Spirit call to our spirit we are not able to 'hear with spiritual ears' (It is a God instigated/orchestrated moment of 'resonance' when God pricks the thing in Man that He, God, put there --the spirit of man-- to have direct contact with Him. John 3:8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.’ Young's Literal Translation)
Who is due the glory for His Grace? Why of course ONLY GOD is due the glory for His astonishing Grace. If man has no choice, why would God repeat this wooing, in deed why even do it a first time? The Calvinism I see operating today has become a vehicle to remove man from having any responsibility for his accepting or rejecting The Grace of God in Christ, and by this (thus) man rejects the responsibility he has in his own destruction. But without Christ in him, the Hope of Glory, that man is doomed to destruction. It is similar to the great trick of satan to persuade men that he, satan, does not exist. But of course he does exist!
This drives me 'toward' Armenianism. But I did not want to sidetrack this thread with discussions of the isms with the accumulated baggage of generations of philosophical discussion therein, because the process of seeing with spiritual eyes requires no more than to listen to the still small voice, believe that ONLY God can perform a spiritual miracle of New Birth, be born from above, so the Character of God is discerned in the Word He has given to us.
If God forces us to love Him, it is not love, for we read that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. And what does the Word say further? ... That whomsoever believeth on Him shall not perish but have everlasting Life. In Modern Calvinism, whomsoever becomes only the chosen to believe and thus it is not an act of Love God performed on The Cross but merely a scene in a play, a game of lead soldiers maneuvered upon a game-board. Without the freedom to choose, the election is nothing but stagecraft. God forbid that we allow such a degeneration of His astonishing Gift of The Grace of God in Christ.
To remove the truth that man has been given a responsibility to accept or reject so Great Salvation (thus assuming it is all predestined to happen or not) is to cheapen the Greatest Act of a Loving God, Who is Absolute Sovereign over all His creation, and Who in His great Mercy has provided a way, THE way to be transformed back into what God first created humankind to be but was lost in Adam when Adam chose to defy God. If Adam had no choice but to sin then we are of men most miserable because we have believed God and believed that 'faithing' is counted for us righteousness. This is a righteousness we cannot achieve of our fleshly pursuits, but which we have been told by God through His Word and His prophets is the means by which He counts Christ's righteousness on our account.
That God can see the end from the beginning is not in question. That seeing, God is then solely responsible for what He sees is what is at issue. It removes any responsibility from man and cheapens Christ Crucified for us to stagecraft, God showing off His power with an act of horrific pain and suffering to achieve what He has already predestined, pre-arranged to be accept or rejected by each and every individual, thus every human remains in the rut of life God has preordained, some to eternal damnation/separation from God, some to Life eternal with The Creator of all.
Am I going to take credit and the glory for having chosen Christ? God forbid! To God be all the glory for first He loved us! Now let me ask you a question: In giving man a sovereignty over choice to accept or reject His Gift, has God given up any of His Sovereignty? ... I won't wait for a posting such as I received from the poster to whom I've been responding, lengthy passages from someone else's thoughts. The answer is NO, God gives up none of His sovereignty when he creates man to have responsibility to accept or reject Hid Grace. And this responsibility is indeed a sovereignty of man, for it is ultimately the working of Love. God teaches us that in loving others we are built up, not diminished. But we also note that in loving others, do we thereby force them to love us back? Well, that's not love is it!
God took responsibility for the sins of those who accept His Great Gift. Those who do not accept His Grace in Christ He has left their sins to their accounts. The Cross is an act of God’s Love. Love does not diminish the one loving nor the one loved. Some would say Jesus took responsibility for the sins of every human being who has ever lived or will live. Love accept enriches both the lover and the loved. Love rejected subtracts nothing from the lover and adds nothing to the loved.
Sorry my FRiend, that is the wrong way to frame the issue. God only violates one’s free will when in His Sovereignty your willful acts can defeat His Sovereign plan. [He has held off the death of kings and prophets upon request to put off death, allowing more misery to accumulate over the king and his subjects and the prophet and his flock.] In fact, with His foreknowledge He is able to make ‘all things work together for good for them who are called according to His purposes.’ God can nullify the free will of anything which cannot and will not ‘work together for good for those who are called according to His purposes’. I believe that is why He will call out His Bride, remove His Body, take away His restraining BEFORE He begins the Seventieth year of Daniel’s prophecy to Israel. The will of the man of sin is to be released to run amok. And not knowing the Mind of God, we are unable usually to comprehend what are the riches of His Glory.
God does what He wants.
Romans 9
The above was mis-typed on my Android while I was traveling yesterday. It should have said "The important part is that He CARED for them."
Absolutely. And He chooses to offer the Greatest Gift in the Universe, to those who will choose to accept that Gift. But if He had arranged that there is no choice on our part then it is not a gift. The Cross if a Love Letter. What is founded in and of and with Love subtracts nothing from the one Loving nor from the one loved. The God of the Bible teaches us that to love is to add without subtracting from any accounts.
Yes, I agree. God cares for all of us. He wants to have fellowship with us and with His creation. And, He wants the best for us; to spend our time in perfect love, joy, peace. He wants the very best for us. And even God's wrath is meant to draw us to Himself-to find that love and joy. That is the type of God He is-even to the wretched city of Nineveh.
The sad part is that we, as Adam's race, don't really want to have fellowship with God. We are willing to sell Paradise and everything that He has given us for a bite of a fruit. And, even after we become believers, we measure ourselves in terms of what we have done for God and question God's wisdom when He causes earthquakes or distress in our own lives. We're all guilty of it. We don't really understand the beauty and holiness of God and, in particular, the wretchness of our own selves.
That is our human condition and, fortunately, one that God knows all too well. We minimize God's glory of what He's done for us while maximizing what we believe is our goodness.
God cares for us. And unless God takes action to help us past this condition, we not only will reject Him but we will seep further into rebellion.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.