The Reformation is over. Catholics 0, Protestants 1

triablogue ^ | April 13, 2015 | Jerry Walls

[RnMomof7]

I'm going to transcribe an article that Jerry Walls wrote when he was a grad student at Notre Dame:

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I am nearing the end of three very happy (with a brief interlude) years as a graduate student in the philosophy department at Notre Dame. The philosophy department is quite lively and stimulating and I have learned a great deal about my discipline.

Along the way, I have also acquired an education of another sort–namely in the ways of the Roman Catholic Church. My education in this regard has been informal and piecemeal, to be sure. My insights have been gathered from diverse sources: from lectures, from letters to the Observer, from articles in the conservative magazine Fidelity, from interaction with undergraduates I have taught. But most of all, I have learned from numerous conversations with students and faculty in the philosophy and theology departments, many of which have involved a friend who is a former Roman Catholic seminarian. While my informal education in these matters hardly qualifies me to speak as an authority, Roman Catholics may find interesting how one Protestant in their midst has come to perceive them. I can communicate my perceptions most clearly, I think, by briefly describing three types of Catholics I have encountered. 

First, I have met a fair number of conservative Catholics. Those who belong to this group like to characterize themselves as thoroughly Catholic. They stress the teaching authority of the Church and are quick to defend the official Catholic position on all points. For such persons, papal encyclicals are not to be debated; they are to be accepted and obeyed. Many conservative Catholics, I suspect, hold their views out of a sense of loyalty to their upbringing. Others, however, defend their views with learning, intelligence, and at times, intensity.

At the other end of the spectrum of course, are the liberal Catholics. These persons are openly skeptical not only about distinctively Roman doctrines such as papal infallibility, but also about basic Christian doctrine as embodied in the ecumenical creeds. It is not clear in what sense such persons would even be called Christians. Nevertheless, if asked their religious preference, on a college application say, they would identify themselves as Catholics. I have no idea how many Catholics are liberals of this stripe, but I have met only a few here at Notre Dame.

It is the third type of Catholic, I am inclined to think, which represents the majority. Certainly most of the Catholics I have met are of this type. I call this group "functional protestants."

Many Catholics, no doubt, will find this designation offensive, so let me hasten to explain what I mean by it. One of the fundamental lines of difference between Catholics and Protestants, going back to the Reformation, concerns the issue of doctrinal authority. The traditional Roman Catholic view, as I understand it, is that its official teachings are guaranteed to be infallible, particularly when the pope or an ecumenical council exercises "extraordinary magisterium" when making doctrinal or moral pronouncements. Protestants have traditionally rejected this claim in favor of the view that Scripture alone is infallible in matters doctrinal and moral. This was the conviction MartinLuther came to hold after he arrived at the conclusion that both popes and church councils have erred. After this, his excommunication was all but inevitable.

When I say most Catholics are functional Protestants I simply mean that most Catholics do not accept the authority claims of their Church. In actual belief and practice, they are much closer to the Protestant view.

This is apparent from the fact that many Catholics do not accept explicitly defined dogmas of their Church. For example, I have talked with several Catholics who are doubtful, at best, about the Marian dogmas, even though these have the status of infallible doctrine in their church. Such Catholics have often made it clear to me that they believe the basic Christian doctrine as defined in the creeds. But they frankly admit that they think their Church has taken some wrong turns in her recent history. Where this is the case, they do not feel compelled to follow. As one of my functional Protestant friends put it: "I am a Roman Catholic, but I am more concerned about being Catholic than about being Roman."

That many Catholics are functionally Protestant is also evident in their attitude toward the distinctive moral teachings of their Church. The obvious example here is the Roman Catholic teaching that all forms of "artificial" birth control are immoral. The official view was reaffirmed explicitly by Pope Paul VI in his encyclical Humanae Vitae, and has been reiterated again and again by Pope John Paul II. Nevertheless, as the article on Humanae Vitae in the Encyclopedic Dictionary of Religion noted, "the papal ban is simply being ignored," and "a concrete authority crisis has thus emerged."

I attended the recent debate on abortion between Fr. James Burtchaell and Daniel Maguire. It is interesting to me that Fr. Burtchaell who eloquently defended the conservative view on abortion, admitted to a questioner that he rejects his Church's teaching on birth control. I could not help but wonder: is Fr. Burtchaell, Catholic statesman though he is, also among the functional Protestants?

This raises, of course, the deeper issue here: to what extent can a member of the Roman Catholic Church disagree with the official teachings of his Church and still be a faithful Catholic? Can one reject the teaching of a papal encyclical while remaining a faithful Catholic? If so, can he also reject a doctrine which the pope has declared infallible?

I have put these questions to several Catholics. Conservative have assured me that the answer to both the latter questions is no. Others insist the answer is yes.

This brings me to a final point concerning functional Protestants: they do consider themselves faithful Catholics. I have  often pointed out in conversation with such Catholics that their views differ little from mine. Why then remain Catholic I ask. In response, these Catholics make it clear to me that they love their Church and intend to remain loyal to it. More than one has compared the Church to his family. One's family makes mistakes, but one does not therefore choose to join another family.

I am not sure what to make of this response. It is not clear to me that one can line up behind Luther in holding that the Popes and councils have erred in their doctrinal and moral pronouncements, and still be a faithful Catholic.  But on the other hand, things have changed since the 16C. It is no longer the case that a Catholic will be excommunicated for holding what Luther held. Perhaps this is just another sign that the Reformation is–despite the pope's best efforts–finally taking hold within the Roman Church. 

Jerry Walls, "Reformational Theology found in Catholicism," The Observer, Thursday, April 23, 1978, p8.

[Resettozero]

H : Like CCC 841 that teaches Catholics believe in the same "god" as Muslims.

C : It never uses the term "the same god," sorry. That's you're interpretation.

Like we said in the eighth grade, Hoss: You didn't hold your mouth right when you posted that.

R2z

[Resettozero]

If I were I Protestant...

...You likely would see things differently than you do now.

[xone]

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

Ignoring that Muslims don't worship the same God when they deny Christ.

[agere_contra]

Let's hear some more from the 'Hero of the Reformation'. Maybe we'll get a feel for which side he was actually playing for.

“Reason is the Devil's greatest whore; by nature and an manner of being she is a noxious whore; she is a prostitute, the Devil's appointed whore; whore eaten by scab and leprosy who ought to be trodden under foot and destroyed, she and her wisdom. . . . Throw dung in her face to make her ugly. She is and she ought to be drowned in baptism. . . . She would deserve, the wretch, to be banished to the filthiest place in the house, to the closets”

“Usury, drunkenness, adultery—these crimes are self-evident and the world knows that they are sinful; but that bride of the Devil, `Reason', stalks abroad, the fair courtesan, and wishes to be considered wise, and thinks that whatever she says comes from the Holy Ghost. She is the most dangerous harlot the Devil has.”

“Reason is contrary to faith”... “Reason is the whore of the Devil. It can only blaspheme and dishonour everything God has said or done”

All quotes taken from Martin Luther, Works, Erlangen Edition

Or we could recall Luther on the Jews and bask in his simple, limpid words: redolent of true spirituality.

These quotes taken from On the Jews and Their Lies:

"My advice, as I said earlier, is: First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also throw in some hellfire...

Second, that all their books-- their prayer books, their Talmudic writings, also the entire Bible-- be taken from them, not leaving them one leaf, and that these be preserved for those who may be converted...

Third, that they be forbidden on pain of death to praise God, to give thanks, to pray, and to teach publicly among us and in our country...

Fourth, that they be forbidden to utter the name of God within our hearing. For we cannot with a good conscience listen to this or tolerate it..."

And in another place:

"Burn their synagogues. Forbid them all that I have mentioned above. Force them to work and treat them with every kind of severity, as Moses did in the desert and slew three thousand...

If that is no use, we must drive them away like mad dogs, in order that we may not be partakers of their abominable blasphemy and of all their vices, and in order that we may not deserve the anger of God and be damned with them."

And this startling take on Christ's command to baptize the whole world in the name of the Trinity:

"If I had to baptize a Jew, I would take him to the bridge of the Elbe, hang a stone round his neck and push him over with the words I baptize thee in the name of Abraham."

Also an intriguing admonition apparently straight from the Book of Esther:

"The Jews deserve to be hanged on gallows seven times higher than ordinary thieves."

But it's not just the Jews that Luther, uh, cared about. Let's not forget his tireless battle on behalf of the most downtrodden in society - the peasants of the 16th century .

Let's bask in the warm glow of Luther, freedom fighter as he speaks to the German princes:

To kill a peasant is not murder; it is helping to extinguish the conflagration. Let there be no half measures! Crush them! Cut their throats! Transfix them! Leave no stone unturned! To kill a peasant is to destroy a mad dog!

Our princes must in the circumstances regard themselves as the officers of the divine wrath which bids them chastise such scoundrels. A prince who failed to do so would be sinning against God very badly. He would be failing in his mission.

A prince who in such circumstances avoided bloodshed would become responsible for the murders and all the further crimes which these low swine might commit. It is no longer a question of tolerance, patience, pity. It is the hour of wrath and for the sword; the hour for mercy is past.

It is a trifle for God to massacre a lot of peasants, when He drowned the whole world with a flood and wiped out Sodom with fire. He is an almighty and frightful God.

These quotes again taken from Martin Luther, Works, Erlangen Edition.

Take another look at your hero. Don't be the last guy wearing a 'Che' tea-shirt.

[miss marmelstein]

As always, you live in an anti-Catholic dream world. Dream on, friend.

[Gamecock]

His Roman Catholic roots were certainly showing.

[RnMomof7]

Oh, hey -- look everybody!!! Nearly ALL of the Catholic straw men together in one place! Come look quick!

When you do not have a reply...just toss out everything you can think of

Shallow reasoning ...part of what makes catholics..

[Campion]

By that logic, Jews don't worship "the same god" as Christians. Are you sure you want to go there?

Once again, CCC841 does not use the term "the same god". The term "the same god" itself is problematic; there is only one god, see Isaiah 43ff.

The only possible choices are not "the same god" or "a different god," but are instead (a) Muslims worship a demon or similar being; (b) Muslims worship a construct of the human imagination; or (c) Muslims worship the true God, but fail to understand him correctly.

Change "Muslims" to "Jews" in the preceding sentence, and I'll bet you pick option "c". Which option is correct in the case of Muslims is not a slam-dunk. There may be aspects of all three.

[Campion]

Shallow reasoning ...part of what makes catholics..

... but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence; 16 and keep a good conscience ... -- 1 Peter 3:15-16 [NASB]

I see nothing there about insulting people. Where in the Scriptures do you find it?

[chajin]

The Holy Spirit through Paul. He trumps Luther all day long.

As a Lutheran, I agree with you. And so, I suspect, would Luther.

[Roos_Girl]

I don’t know about the scene you are describing, but the sentiment is something I think k about every time I read articles like this and the ensuing comments. Enemies are kicking in the doors and have already scaled the walls and people here persist at tearing at each others’ throats.

[RnMomof7]

Opinion and generalization

Are you saying his observations are not accurate?

My world is filled with the people he describes ...Catholics that only go to mass on Christmas and Easter.. Catholics that have told me they would never pray to saints, or say a rosary ..Catholics that have told me they do not believe in purgatory

[Campion]

Reason is the Devil's greatest whore; by nature and an manner of being she is a noxious whore; she is a prostitute, the Devil's appointed whore; whore eaten by scab and leprosy who ought to be trodden under foot and destroyed, she and her wisdom. . . . Throw dung in her face to make her ugly. She is and she ought to be drowned in baptism. . . . She would deserve, the wretch, to be banished to the filthiest place in the house, to the closets

Idiocy like this is about as far from the thoughts of e.g., Thomas Aquinas as you can possibly get.

To Calvin's credit, he was not irrational-and-proud-of-it, as Luther sometimes was.

[agere_contra]

Are you trying to excuse Luther's betrayal of the peasants and his monotonous Jew-hatred by pretending that he was a Catholic?

He rejected the Church.

His seething hatred and confusion were the fruit of that rejection.

[Rashputin]

. . . people here persist at tearing at each others’ throats.

It's the fruit of an overwhelmingly Protestant society where Self and Self Alone rules.

[roamer_1]

DOCTRINE has everything to do with faith. NO DOCTRINE, no FAITH, no matter what NAME you put on it.

Pro 4:2 For I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not my law.

Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

[agere_contra]

Enemies are kicking in the doors and have already scaled the walls and people here persist at tearing at each others’ throats.

Freepers persist in posting these dumb attack-threads, and they keep on winning the same dumb prizes.

[RnMomof7]

It's undoubtedly true. That's one reason so many nominal Catholics are pro-contraception, pro-gay-marriage, pro divorce/remarriage, etc. Living like other Americans, voting like other Americans (within a 2% margin plus or minus), reading Scripture by their own lights and doing what they think best.

The fact is that less that probably 1/2 of the people baptized Catholics actually are in any way Catholic..

They may bring their kids for baptism , seek a church to marry or be buried in ...but other than that they are nothing.. and so indeed they do use birth control, have abortions , and support gay rights.. .. but they still call themselves Roman Catholics.. and so they still belong to your church

[tiki]

Yes, truth is truth and can’t be anything else or it isn’t truth.

Those who appease sinners do them no favors and the wrath of God will be on those who call sin good just so no one gets their feelings hurt.

[Roos_Girl]

Luther’s final attitude toward the Jewish people, as evidenced in his last sermon: “We want to treat them with Christian love and to pray for them, so that they might become converted and would receive the Lord” (Weimar edition, Vol. 51, p. 195).