[Elsie]

This belief takes two general forms: first that the souls of the just are “asleep” until the Resurrection; second, that the souls are isolated in Heaven.

Makes me wonder just where crazy ideas like this get started...

Psalm 13:3
Look on me and answer, Lord my God. Give light to my eyes, or I will sleep in death,

 

Psalm 90:5
Yet you sweep people away in the sleep of death— they are like the new grass of the morning:

 

Daniel 12:2
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
 
 
John 11:12-13
His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.”
Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.

 

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
Listen, I tell you a mystery:

We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.

For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

 

Ephesians 5:14
This is why it is said: “Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.”

 

 
1 Thessalonians 4:13
Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.
 

[free_life]

Someone who knows God..that is has a personal relationship with God does not need to ask someone to ask God for anything on their behalf.

I speak directly to God, I can enter into the throne room of God, into his presence boldly with confidence because I have been sprinkled with the blood of Jesus Christ. Meanwhile thousands of others are praying to auntie Bessy all at the same time... stop and consider the nonsense of such a superstition.

[daniel1212]

Three Things You're Probably Getting Wrong about Praying to the Saints

1. The Saints in Heaven are Alive, not Dead, as their spirits are with the Lord, the only place that that Scripture clearly teaches is the next place for believers after this life, not Cath. purgatory, wherever Scripture manifestly deals with this issue. (Lk. 23:39-43; Acts 7:59; Phil. 1:21-23; 2Cor. 5:8; 1Thes. 4:17)

Nor are the Saints a distinct class of believers, as Scripture teaches that all believers are saints, using the word interchangeably for believers , as even the Corinthians were washed, sanctified and justified in the name of Jesus and by the Spirit of God. (1Cor. 6:11). already accepted in the Beloved and seated with Christ, (Eph. 1:6; 2:6)

And in Scripture all sanctifying work is done in this world with its trials and temptations, in which there is an sinful alternative to suffering. And thus it was here that the Lord was made "perfect," in the sense being tempted in all points like as we are, yet without sin. (Heb. 4:15)

Meanwhile, the only postmortem suffering spoken of is that of suffering the loss of rewards, and thus the grievous shame of the Lord's disapproval, at the judgment seat of Christ, and which is at the return of the Lord, not commencing at death. See here .

Even the EO's tend to reject Rome's purgatory (though they have a theory of preparation)

Also, the Orthodox Church does not believe in indulgences as remissions from purgatorial punishment. Both purgatory and indulgences are inter-corrolated theories, unwitnessed in the Bible or in the Ancient Church, and when they were enforced and applied they brought about evil practices at the expense of the prevailing Truths of the Church. If Almighty God in His merciful loving-kindness changes the dreadful situation of the sinner, it is unknown to the Church of Christ. The Church lived for fifteen hundred years without such a theory. — http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7076

2. The Saints in Heaven are Witnesses, not Sleeping or Ignorant, but Rv. 6:9-11 that the RCs compel to support them only shows they crying out for judgment, which could have been due to the increase of martyred souls arriving in Heaven, indicating the time of judgment should be near.

Likewise, RCs compel Heb. 12:1-2 to support them, but which is not speaking about communicating with the departed, but in context (Heb. 11) that of being in the company of such as part of the same body.

In any case, this query for judgment simply does not support created beings in Heaven being able to hear prayers addressed to them and respond , not does offering up prayers as a memorial at the time of the day of the Lord.

In fact, nowhere does the Spirit ever record even one prayer, supplications or offerings addressed to anyone else by God - except by pagans - even though He records over 200 in Scripture! Argument by silence much?

3. The Saints in Heaven are Still Part of the Church, yet neither this, nor exhortations to pray for each others teach that created beings in Heaven are able to hear and respond to prayer from earth addressed to them in Heaven, and do so.

Moreover, from what I see, all two-way communication required both created beings to somehow be consciously operating in the same realm.

“What saith the Scriptures?” (Rm. 4:3; 11:2; Gal. 4:30) “Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. (Proverbs 30:6)”
1	Prayers in Scripture addressed to God in Heaven	Over 200 prayers, besides instruction on prayer to Heaven. (“Our Father who art in Heaven,” not “Out Mother.”)
	Prayers in Scripture addressed to any created beings in Heaven	ZERO prayers or examples, or in instruction on prayer to Heaven
2	Examples or teaching showing God being able to hear and respond to prayer from earth addressed to Him in Heaven.	Multiple. “I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will heal thee..” (2 Kings 20:5; cf. Ps. 65:2; 66:19,20; Lk 1:13)
	Examples or teaching showing created beings being able to hear and respond to prayer from earth addressed to them in Heaven.	ZERO. Angels and elders offering up prayers before the judgments of the last days in memorial (Rev. 5:8 and 8:3,4; f. Lv. 2:2,15,16; 24:7; Num. 5:15) does not constitute this ability, which is unique to God.
3	Examples or teaching showing God able to personally communicate with man from Heaven.	Many. For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. (2 Corinthians 12:8-9)
	Examples or teaching showing created beings being able to converse with man from Heaven.	ZERO. From what I see, all two-way communication required both created beings to somehow be consciously operating in the same realm.
4	Examples or teaching Christ as being the heavenly intercessor between man and God.	Many. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (1 Timothy 2:5) For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. (Hebrews 2:18) For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. (Hebrews 4:15-16) Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. (Hebrews 7:25)
	Examples or teaching any as created beings as heavenly intercessor between man and God.	ZERO. See under 2 above.

[Oratam]

Because I believe in the fullness of the truth of the Gospel, I petition those who have gone before me, united with all the faithful in His Mystical Body, to pray for me. Because Christ is not a liar.

[trebb]

It can be argued that, having been saved, anyone who "gave up the Ghost and fell asleep (ala Stephen) can be considered a saint because in God's eyes, they are.

When asked how to pray, Jesus instructed, "When you do it, do it something like this; Our Father, which art in heaven....."

The articles biggest support for praying to mortals who have since passed on is that the saved do not perish but have eternal life - pretty agile mental gymnastics. I will not begrudge Y'All from praying to whomever you want, but it seems odd that, even after Jesus walked the Earth to become the one door between us and God, that we wouldn't prefer to pray to Him or directly to the Father.

[NKP_Vet]

“these practices date back far earlier, even to Old Testament Judaism”.

The vast majority of protestants I have known, and I was a protestant for 58 years, could care less what the Old Testament says.

[FourtySeven]

http://shamelesspopery.com/does-scripture-teach-us-to-pray-for-the-departed-and-to-pray-to-the-saints/

The rest of the story, as Paul Harvey may have said.

That, and the points issued but ignored from the OP, pretty much answer 95% of what is raised on this thread as an “objection” to this historical, Traditional, Catholic teaching. As usual.

Also, as usual, I’m sure that (what is linked above) will go ignored too.

Far too many religious choices to protect.

[editor-surveyor]

.
If you’re praying to “the saints” you’re getting everything wrong.

First, it isn’t even remotely likely that any of them really are saints, and second, you have no permission from Yehova to pray to any dead human.

Like the idea of a permanent vacation to a very warm beach? Then pray on!
.

[Dajjal]

bumpus ad summum

[Preachin']

John 5:28-29 28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Psalm 115:7 It is not the dead who praise the Lord, those who go down to the place of silence;

Acts 2:34a For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said...

Psalm 6:5 Among the dead no one proclaims your name. Who praises you from the grave?

Psalm 146: 2-4 will praise the Lord all my life; I will sing praise to my God as long as I live Do not put your trust in princes, in human beings, who cannot save. When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing.

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten. Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.