Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Three Things You're Probably Getting Wrong about Praying to the Saints
Shameless popery ^ | April 20, 2015

Posted on 04/20/2015 1:46:59 PM PDT by NYer

As Christianity Today acknowledges, prayers for and to the Saints date back to the early Church (in fact, these practices date back far earlier, even to Old Testament Judaism, but I'll talk more about that tomorrow). Nevertheless, these practices are controversial within Protestantism. Today, I want to look at just one of them -- prayer to the Saints -- and show why the opposition to it is grounded in a faulty view of life after death. Tomorrow, I'll look at the Biblical support for both prayer to the Saints and prayer for the Saints.

First, a word on why Protestants tend to object to prayer to the Saints. For some people, such prayers are sinful, since they think it gives glory to someone other than God, or that it's equivalent to “consulting the dead.” Others view it simply as impossible, since they think that the Saints can't hear us, or are unconcerned with what's going on here below. But almost all of these arguments are built upon the same three misconceptions about the souls of the Saints who have gone before us. Given this, let's present the Biblical view on each of these three major points:

Johann Michael Rottmayr, Intercession of Charles Borromeo supported by the Virgin Mary (1714)
1. The Saints in Heaven are Alive, not Dead.

The first mistake in opposing “prayers to the dead” is assuming that we're praying to “the dead.” One of the most frequently cited passages against prayer to the Saints in Heaven is Isaiah 8:19,
And when they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the wizards who chirp and mutter,” should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?
Those who oppose prayer to the Saints present a straightforward argument: the faithful departed are dead, and it's sinful to “consult the dead.”

But the first premise -- that the faithful departed are dead -- is false, and directly contrary to Scripture. Jesus actually denounces this view as Biblically ignorant (Mk. 12:24). He reveals the truth about the Saints when He says, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die” (John 11:25-26). And in response to the Sadduccees, He says (Mark 12:26-27):
And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.
So the Protestant view that says that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are “dead” is “quite wrong.”

Read the literature written against prayers to the Saints, and see how frequently they're mischaracterized as “the dead.” This isn't a harmless mistake. The passages warning against “the dead” simply don't apply to the question of the Saints. Indeed, a great many popular assumptions about the afterlife are built on the idea that verses like Psalm 115:17 (“The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any that go down into the silence”) apply to the Saints in Heaven. They don't, and Christ tells us that they don't.

The Ladder of Divine Ascent (12th c. icon)
2. The Saints in Heaven are Witnesses, not Sleeping or Ignorant.

Related to the first mistake is the idea that the departed Saints are cut off from us on Earth, and that it's therefore immoral (or at least futile) to communicate with them. This belief takes two general forms: first that the souls of the just are “asleep” until the Resurrection; second, that the souls are isolated in Heaven.

First, soul sleep. The United Church of God argues against praying to “dead” saints:
In addition to all this, praying to dead saints today assumes the doctrine of the immortal soul, which many people are surprised to find is not taught in the Bible. The Bible teaches that death is like sleep that lasts until the resurrection at Jesus Christ's second coming (1 Thessalonians:4:13-16 ).
Now, United Church of God aren't mainstream Protestants by any stretch: they are Sabbatarians (meaning that they reject Sunday worship) and they reject the Trinity. But this notion of soul sleep can be traced to Martin Luther, who wrote:
For the Christian sleeps in death and in that way enters into life, but the godless departs from life and experiences death forever [...] Hence death is also called in the Scriptures a sleep. For just as he who falls asleep does not know how it happens, and he greets the morning when he awakes, so shall we suddenly arise on the last day, and never know how we entered and passed through death.
Even Luther's most militant supporters concede that he held some sort of confused and often-contradictory notion of “soul sleep.” So, too, did many of the Radical Reformers. In this view, the souls of the Saints aren't “conscious,” and so it would be futile to ask them for prayers.

The second camp rejects soul sleep, but thinks that the souls in Heaven are isolated from us. For example, the website “Just for Catholics” acknowledges that the first half of the Hail Mary comes directly from Scripture, but says that these Scriptures aren't permitted to be used as prayer:
Even though the first two sentences are taken from the Bible, it does not mean that it is right to use them as a prayer. Mary could hear the salutations of the Gabriel and Elizabeth because they spoke in her immediate presence. Now Mary is dead and her soul is in heaven. She cannot hear the prayers of thousands and thousands who constantly call upon her name. Only the all-knowing God can hear the prayers of His people.
But Scripture doesn't present the Saints in Heaven as isolated or spiritually asleep. Rather, even in their “rest,” they're presented as alert and aware of the goings-on of Earth (Revelation 6:9-11):
I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
Perhaps the clearest description of the relationship between the Saints in Heaven and the saints on Earth is in the Book of Hebrews. Chapter 11 is a litany of Saints who lived by faith, leading immediately into this (Heb. 12:1-2):
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
The spiritual life is compared to competing in a race, an image that Paul uses elsewhere (1 Corinthians 9:24-27; 2 Timothy 4:6-7). Here, the imagery is fleshed out to show that the Saints in Heaven are a great crowd of witnesses in the stands. Obviously, this idea of the heavenly Saints as “a crowd of witnesses” is incompatible with the idea that they're either asleep or unavailable to see us.

Matthias Gerung, John's Vision, from the Ottheinrich Bible (1531)
3. The Saints in Heaven are Still Part of the Church.

The Biblical depiction of the Saints as the heavenly witnesses in the grandstands of our spiritual race rebuts a third view: namely, that the Saints are enjoying God's company so much that they've stopped caring about us. For example, a Christian Post column on the subject seems to suggest that the Saints don't do anything for us once they're in Heaven:
So yes, they are not really dead. But that doesn't mean they hear our prayers, or provide even the slightest bit of assistance in answer to our prayers, regardless of how noble their lives may have been while on earth. God doesn't use saints in heaven to bless saints on earth. Instead, God utilizes His holy angels to minister to His children on earth. 
Such a view gets things entirely backwards. Rather, their holiness and their enjoyment of God means that they love us and care for us all the more. That's why they're witnesses to our spiritual race; that's why the martyrs in Heaven are still concerned with justice on Earth. The more we love God, the more we love our neighbor. And the Saints love God with a perfection impossible to us here below.

One way to think about this is to remember the shocking fact that the Saints are still part of the Church. The Bible describeds the Church as both the Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ. For example, St. Paul tells us that the Church is the Body of Christ (Colossians 1:18, 24), and the Body of Christ is the Church (Ephesians 5:23). The Saints aren't somehow cut off from Christ in Heaven, which is why we see the Holy Spirit presenting the Bride of Christ in Heaven (Revelation 21:9, 22:17). That membership in the Church helps to explain their heavenly intercession (1 Corinthians 12:24-26):
But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part, that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. If one member of suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
So both perfect Christian charity and our union in the Body of Christ help to account for why the Saints intercede for us. 

Conclusion

Scripture repeatedly calls for us to pray for one another (e.g., 1 Thessalonians 5:25; 2 Thes. 3:1; Colossians 4:3; Hebrews 13:18), to make “supplications for all the saints” (Ephesians 6:18), and for “supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings” to be made “for all men” (1 Timothy 2:1). Neither in praying for one another nor in asking one another for prayers do we risk offending God in the slightest. Quite the contrary: “This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:3-4).

The Catholic position simply applies these Scriptural teaching to the entire Body of Christ, while the standard Protestant position says that these teachings don't apply to the parts of the Church that are already in Heaven. The view goes awry in calling for us to ignore an entire portion of the Body of Christ: urging us not to pray for the faithful departed, and not to ask the Saints in glory to pray for us. Scripture calls for us to “have the same care for one another,” to suffer and triumph with the other parts of the Body. The Saints' glory is ours; our struggles are theirs. 

As you can see from the above post, many of the most popular arguments against praying to the Saints are based on false ideas about what happens to the souls of the just after death: thinking that the Saints are dead, or asleep, or isolated, or apathetic, or outside the Church. In fact, they're alive and before God, yet still connected to us, witnessing our triumphs, failures and struggles, all the while rooting for us and praying for us. 

With a correct view of the state of the glorified Saints and their role in the Church, most of the arguments against seeking their intercession simply dissolve. There's simply no good reason to cut the heavenly Saints off from the rest of the Body. You're surrounded by Heavenly witnesses who are supporting you in your spiritual race. What's more, they're your brothers and sisters in Christ. Given this, by all means, ask for their spiritual help and encouragement!


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Mainline Protestant; Other Christian; Prayer
KEYWORDS: prayer; prayerstosaints; praying; saints; venoration
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 61-8081-100101-120 ... 981-984 next last
To: Boogieman

You give him too much credit. He doesn’t have the leading of the Holy Spirit to reveal the understanding of the Word of God. Thus, he tries to make man as confused as he is about Scriptural matters that are revealed to the Saints...us.

He is not worthy of any worship.


81 posted on 04/20/2015 4:03:47 PM PDT by Resettozero
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 79 | View Replies]

To: Alex Murphy

Good thing Catholics never post hit pieces on Protestants.


82 posted on 04/20/2015 4:04:28 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: FateAmenableToChange
I will try to find time to go through a concordance, but exegesis will likely support my reading on this.

YOPIOS. By what authority do YOU interpret scripture?

83 posted on 04/20/2015 4:04:28 PM PDT by NYer ("You are a puff of smoke that appears briefly and then disappears." James 4:14)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 67 | View Replies]

To: Resettozero

“You give him too much credit. He doesn’t have the leading of the Holy Spirit to reveal the understanding of the Word of God.”

Sure, but I spoke merely of his knowledge of the Word, not necessarily understanding. My point is that Satan clearly is not as cartoonish as some would depict when it comes to holy things, if he has the entire Bible memorized. To believe he is like some vampire recoiling from crosses is, I think, extremely foolish.


84 posted on 04/20/2015 4:06:42 PM PDT by Boogieman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 81 | View Replies]

To: Boogieman
You seem to think that miracles granted to people who love Jesus and trust in Jesus, are to be set aside because they could be of Satan.

Jesus Himself was confronted by the same concern: the Pharisees charged that he drove out demons by the power of Beelzebul. He rightly answered that "If Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand; that is the end of him" (Mark 3:26).

Do not confuse miracles with superstition. The Church has never been without the kinds of wonders described in the Acts of the Apostles. They glorify God. And that makes the demons tremble.

85 posted on 04/20/2015 4:10:18 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Seriously.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 79 | View Replies]

To: Responsibility2nd; Alex Murphy; boatbums; caww; CynicalBear; daniel1212; Elsie; Iscool; ...
In that it REFUTES and CONTRADICTS all the Catholic Freepers who have denied for years Proddy assertions that Catholics pray to Saints.

That's what happens when you don't follow the truth.

You never get caught in contradictions when you speak it and beleive it. The only time you get exposed is when promoting lies because they are not internally consistent.

86 posted on 04/20/2015 4:10:21 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: NYer
YOPIOS. By what authority do YOU interpret scripture?

By what authority do you, or any other catholic, do the same when you make your understanding of Scripture?

87 posted on 04/20/2015 4:12:30 PM PDT by ealgeone
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 83 | View Replies]

To: WayneS
My question is, why would I NEED to pray to a Saint? It’s not like God is too busy to hear my prayer. He is infinite, all-seeing and all-knowing.

Especially in light of all the passages where Jesus promises that our FATHER will hear and answer those prayers to Him.

It's like they don't even believe God will come through like He promised.

88 posted on 04/20/2015 4:13:00 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: NYer

Ping


89 posted on 04/20/2015 4:15:25 PM PDT by Rich21IE
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Gamecock

Hypocritical, to say the least.


90 posted on 04/20/2015 4:15:57 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: Mrs. Don-o; Boogieman
... They glorify God. And that makes the demons tremble.

They glorify personalities. And that makes the demons tremble gleefully party.

Roman Catholicism is a cult of personalities...

91 posted on 04/20/2015 4:15:58 PM PDT by WVKayaker (Impeachment is the Constitution's answer for a derelict, incompetent president! -Sarah Palin 7/26/14)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 85 | View Replies]

To: Gamecock; NKP_Vet; RnMomof7
NKP can comment as appropriate, but I would say that the intent here is to distinguish between two meanings of "prayer": prayer "to" as if to a person operating on the basis of their own power or piety, independently of God; or prayer "for" as in asking intercessaory prayer.

You are wise enough, I think, to get the gist of this. We pray "to" saints only in the sense that we are praying "for" intercession.

It's all seen in the context of the Body of Christ, of which we, and the saints gone on before us, are all still living members, sharing spiritual goods and having a loving contact which is of lasting significance in the eyes of Our Lord. NKP, if I have said anything wrong, please correct me.

92 posted on 04/20/2015 4:16:07 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("In Christ we form one body, and each member belongs to all the others." Romans 12:5)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 78 | View Replies]

To: NYer
The Catholic position simply applies these Scriptural teaching to the entire Body of Christ, while the standard Protestant position says that these teachings don't apply to the parts of the Church that are already in Heaven. The view goes awry in calling for us to ignore an entire portion of the Body of Christ: urging us not to pray for the faithful departed, and not to ask the Saints in glory to pray for us. Scripture calls for us to “have the same care for one another,” to suffer and triumph with the other parts of the Body. The Saints' glory is ours; our struggles are theirs.

The catholic position ignores the Biblical position on this issue.

We do not have any injunction or example of praying to the departed believers.

Praying for the departed does them no good. Their destiny is determined at death. They either die as a Christian and will go to Heaven, or they will die as a non-Christian and go to Hell. Once your earthly body stops working it is too late.

If the catholic position were correct, then the simple thing to do would be to pray everyone into Heaven. This would completely undercut every teaching in the NT about how one comes to faith in Christ.

93 posted on 04/20/2015 4:17:04 PM PDT by ealgeone
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 81 | View Replies]

To: Mrs. Don-o

What about “having a loving contact which is of lasting significance in the eyes of Our Lord” is found in Scripture? You make it sound as if God is pleased when we pray to the saints in heaven. Is this what you are saying?


94 posted on 04/20/2015 4:20:02 PM PDT by smvoice (There are no prizes given for defending the indefensible.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 92 | View Replies]

To: kosciusko51
I’ve never prayed to a saint, but I have have asked the saints to pray for me.

If you have asked them to pray for you then you have prayed to them. This is not to be confused with worship which is only directed to God.

95 posted on 04/20/2015 4:20:02 PM PDT by Petrosius
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 49 | View Replies]

To: NYer
You don't. OTOH, just as you have probably asked a friend to pray for you, there is nothing wrong with asking a saint to do the same thing. The saints are closer to God since they stand in His presence, unlike your friend on earth. In both instances, their prayers are offered up to God.

The ignorance of the scriptures and Christianity by Catholics (at any level) is astounding...I just shake my head when a Catholic tries to expound on the scriptures...

As Christians, our prayers do not go to heaven...Not in this dispensation, anyway...And you don't even know why...

1Jn 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

That's how God knows even the thoughts of every Christian...I and every Christian is closer to God than any supposed Saint in heaven...

This is not a great mystery since it's revealed thru-out the New Testament...If Catholics have read the scriptures, they know this stuff is in there...The problem is unbelief...

96 posted on 04/20/2015 4:23:37 PM PDT by Iscool
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: NYer; Alex Murphy
Puhlease ... no one is knocking protestants, Alex. This is no different from some of the protestant threads, like the recent one, posted by metmom, on the Communion of Saints.

Wow. Persecution complex much???

Catholicism is not mentioed ONCE in that thread and Catholics do not own the rights to the term "communion of the saints".

That was no hit piece on Catholics, it was simply a discussion of what it is.

Y'all Catholics need to get over yourselves.

I am not surprised in the least at your response. I figured some Catholic somewhere would take it personally.

97 posted on 04/20/2015 4:25:02 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: FateAmenableToChange

When Catholics say that they pray to the saints they are using the legitimate meaning of making a request, i.e. for the saints to pray to God for us. To suggest that Catholics mean anything else is to bear false witness.


98 posted on 04/20/2015 4:25:35 PM PDT by Petrosius
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 67 | View Replies]

To: Petrosius
This is not to be confused with worship which is only directed to God.

Unregenerate men and women worship anything and everything EXCEPT God...because they don't know Him or His Son.
99 posted on 04/20/2015 4:25:36 PM PDT by Resettozero
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 95 | View Replies]

To: Salvation; Gamecock; RnMomof7

Catholics. The perenially tongue in cheek challenged.


100 posted on 04/20/2015 4:28:27 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 61-8081-100101-120 ... 981-984 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson