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Three Things You're Probably Getting Wrong about Praying to the Saints
Shameless popery ^ | April 20, 2015

Posted on 04/20/2015 1:46:59 PM PDT by NYer

As Christianity Today acknowledges, prayers for and to the Saints date back to the early Church (in fact, these practices date back far earlier, even to Old Testament Judaism, but I'll talk more about that tomorrow). Nevertheless, these practices are controversial within Protestantism. Today, I want to look at just one of them -- prayer to the Saints -- and show why the opposition to it is grounded in a faulty view of life after death. Tomorrow, I'll look at the Biblical support for both prayer to the Saints and prayer for the Saints.

First, a word on why Protestants tend to object to prayer to the Saints. For some people, such prayers are sinful, since they think it gives glory to someone other than God, or that it's equivalent to “consulting the dead.” Others view it simply as impossible, since they think that the Saints can't hear us, or are unconcerned with what's going on here below. But almost all of these arguments are built upon the same three misconceptions about the souls of the Saints who have gone before us. Given this, let's present the Biblical view on each of these three major points:

Johann Michael Rottmayr, Intercession of Charles Borromeo supported by the Virgin Mary (1714)
1. The Saints in Heaven are Alive, not Dead.

The first mistake in opposing “prayers to the dead” is assuming that we're praying to “the dead.” One of the most frequently cited passages against prayer to the Saints in Heaven is Isaiah 8:19,
And when they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the wizards who chirp and mutter,” should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?
Those who oppose prayer to the Saints present a straightforward argument: the faithful departed are dead, and it's sinful to “consult the dead.”

But the first premise -- that the faithful departed are dead -- is false, and directly contrary to Scripture. Jesus actually denounces this view as Biblically ignorant (Mk. 12:24). He reveals the truth about the Saints when He says, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die” (John 11:25-26). And in response to the Sadduccees, He says (Mark 12:26-27):
And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.
So the Protestant view that says that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are “dead” is “quite wrong.”

Read the literature written against prayers to the Saints, and see how frequently they're mischaracterized as “the dead.” This isn't a harmless mistake. The passages warning against “the dead” simply don't apply to the question of the Saints. Indeed, a great many popular assumptions about the afterlife are built on the idea that verses like Psalm 115:17 (“The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any that go down into the silence”) apply to the Saints in Heaven. They don't, and Christ tells us that they don't.

The Ladder of Divine Ascent (12th c. icon)
2. The Saints in Heaven are Witnesses, not Sleeping or Ignorant.

Related to the first mistake is the idea that the departed Saints are cut off from us on Earth, and that it's therefore immoral (or at least futile) to communicate with them. This belief takes two general forms: first that the souls of the just are “asleep” until the Resurrection; second, that the souls are isolated in Heaven.

First, soul sleep. The United Church of God argues against praying to “dead” saints:
In addition to all this, praying to dead saints today assumes the doctrine of the immortal soul, which many people are surprised to find is not taught in the Bible. The Bible teaches that death is like sleep that lasts until the resurrection at Jesus Christ's second coming (1 Thessalonians:4:13-16 ).
Now, United Church of God aren't mainstream Protestants by any stretch: they are Sabbatarians (meaning that they reject Sunday worship) and they reject the Trinity. But this notion of soul sleep can be traced to Martin Luther, who wrote:
For the Christian sleeps in death and in that way enters into life, but the godless departs from life and experiences death forever [...] Hence death is also called in the Scriptures a sleep. For just as he who falls asleep does not know how it happens, and he greets the morning when he awakes, so shall we suddenly arise on the last day, and never know how we entered and passed through death.
Even Luther's most militant supporters concede that he held some sort of confused and often-contradictory notion of “soul sleep.” So, too, did many of the Radical Reformers. In this view, the souls of the Saints aren't “conscious,” and so it would be futile to ask them for prayers.

The second camp rejects soul sleep, but thinks that the souls in Heaven are isolated from us. For example, the website “Just for Catholics” acknowledges that the first half of the Hail Mary comes directly from Scripture, but says that these Scriptures aren't permitted to be used as prayer:
Even though the first two sentences are taken from the Bible, it does not mean that it is right to use them as a prayer. Mary could hear the salutations of the Gabriel and Elizabeth because they spoke in her immediate presence. Now Mary is dead and her soul is in heaven. She cannot hear the prayers of thousands and thousands who constantly call upon her name. Only the all-knowing God can hear the prayers of His people.
But Scripture doesn't present the Saints in Heaven as isolated or spiritually asleep. Rather, even in their “rest,” they're presented as alert and aware of the goings-on of Earth (Revelation 6:9-11):
I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
Perhaps the clearest description of the relationship between the Saints in Heaven and the saints on Earth is in the Book of Hebrews. Chapter 11 is a litany of Saints who lived by faith, leading immediately into this (Heb. 12:1-2):
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
The spiritual life is compared to competing in a race, an image that Paul uses elsewhere (1 Corinthians 9:24-27; 2 Timothy 4:6-7). Here, the imagery is fleshed out to show that the Saints in Heaven are a great crowd of witnesses in the stands. Obviously, this idea of the heavenly Saints as “a crowd of witnesses” is incompatible with the idea that they're either asleep or unavailable to see us.

Matthias Gerung, John's Vision, from the Ottheinrich Bible (1531)
3. The Saints in Heaven are Still Part of the Church.

The Biblical depiction of the Saints as the heavenly witnesses in the grandstands of our spiritual race rebuts a third view: namely, that the Saints are enjoying God's company so much that they've stopped caring about us. For example, a Christian Post column on the subject seems to suggest that the Saints don't do anything for us once they're in Heaven:
So yes, they are not really dead. But that doesn't mean they hear our prayers, or provide even the slightest bit of assistance in answer to our prayers, regardless of how noble their lives may have been while on earth. God doesn't use saints in heaven to bless saints on earth. Instead, God utilizes His holy angels to minister to His children on earth. 
Such a view gets things entirely backwards. Rather, their holiness and their enjoyment of God means that they love us and care for us all the more. That's why they're witnesses to our spiritual race; that's why the martyrs in Heaven are still concerned with justice on Earth. The more we love God, the more we love our neighbor. And the Saints love God with a perfection impossible to us here below.

One way to think about this is to remember the shocking fact that the Saints are still part of the Church. The Bible describeds the Church as both the Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ. For example, St. Paul tells us that the Church is the Body of Christ (Colossians 1:18, 24), and the Body of Christ is the Church (Ephesians 5:23). The Saints aren't somehow cut off from Christ in Heaven, which is why we see the Holy Spirit presenting the Bride of Christ in Heaven (Revelation 21:9, 22:17). That membership in the Church helps to explain their heavenly intercession (1 Corinthians 12:24-26):
But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part, that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. If one member of suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
So both perfect Christian charity and our union in the Body of Christ help to account for why the Saints intercede for us. 

Conclusion

Scripture repeatedly calls for us to pray for one another (e.g., 1 Thessalonians 5:25; 2 Thes. 3:1; Colossians 4:3; Hebrews 13:18), to make “supplications for all the saints” (Ephesians 6:18), and for “supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings” to be made “for all men” (1 Timothy 2:1). Neither in praying for one another nor in asking one another for prayers do we risk offending God in the slightest. Quite the contrary: “This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:3-4).

The Catholic position simply applies these Scriptural teaching to the entire Body of Christ, while the standard Protestant position says that these teachings don't apply to the parts of the Church that are already in Heaven. The view goes awry in calling for us to ignore an entire portion of the Body of Christ: urging us not to pray for the faithful departed, and not to ask the Saints in glory to pray for us. Scripture calls for us to “have the same care for one another,” to suffer and triumph with the other parts of the Body. The Saints' glory is ours; our struggles are theirs. 

As you can see from the above post, many of the most popular arguments against praying to the Saints are based on false ideas about what happens to the souls of the just after death: thinking that the Saints are dead, or asleep, or isolated, or apathetic, or outside the Church. In fact, they're alive and before God, yet still connected to us, witnessing our triumphs, failures and struggles, all the while rooting for us and praying for us. 

With a correct view of the state of the glorified Saints and their role in the Church, most of the arguments against seeking their intercession simply dissolve. There's simply no good reason to cut the heavenly Saints off from the rest of the Body. You're surrounded by Heavenly witnesses who are supporting you in your spiritual race. What's more, they're your brothers and sisters in Christ. Given this, by all means, ask for their spiritual help and encouragement!


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Mainline Protestant; Other Christian; Prayer
KEYWORDS: prayer; prayerstosaints; praying; saints; venoration
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To: FateAmenableToChange
And as models for believers' lives, many of the RCC's recognized saints are truly worthy of contemplation, respect, and emulation.

And yet the Scriptures tell us to be like Jesus...

261 posted on 04/21/2015 6:24:20 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Resettozero
Sincerely, please expound a little more.

Your plea is too late!

I rarely remember my train of thought 5 minutes after I've posted something!

262 posted on 04/21/2015 6:25:43 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Biggirl
Just more of the same from the “YOPIOS” crowd.

Ah...

Apparently narses' mantel has fallen to you!

You'll need the image if you are going to do it right!!

 

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_8SJPjCbt-YM/S8plUadXevI/AAAAAAAAAaM/cfKFl-I6InQ/s1600/yopios.jpg

 

 

 

263 posted on 04/21/2015 6:28:55 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

I don’t feel like posting all of those names. Like yours.


264 posted on 04/21/2015 6:33:42 AM PDT by Not gonna take it anymore (If Obama were twice as smart as he is, he would be a wit)
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To: ealgeone
Actually, it appears the catholic position ignores the Bible while placing more emphasis on catholic tradition to its error as noted in my post 177.

Intro of your post 177:
uhhh...the catholic forgets, or rather, wants to forget the false rcc teachings on Mary...

Do you confess, or deny, that Yeshua/Jesus is Immanuel/Emmanuel (which is scripturually interpreted below as "God with us"), and that Miriam/Mary is his mother ?

Moreover the Lord spake again unto Ahaz, saying, Ask thee a sign of the Lord thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above. But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the Lord. And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also? Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Isaiah, Catholic chapter seven, Protestant verses ten to fourteen ,
Matthew Catholic chapter one, Protestant verses twenty two to twenty three,
Matthew Catholic chapter ten, Protestant verses thirty two to thirty three,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James

265 posted on 04/21/2015 6:44:30 AM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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To: Elsie

Besides you ignored the beginning of the verse in Corinthians. Paul was both “Confident” and willing to be absent the body and present with Christ.

When Paul is confident of something, you probably shouldn’t dismiss it as wishful thinking.


266 posted on 04/21/2015 6:50:17 AM PDT by DannyTN
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To: Elsie
And yet the Scriptures tell us to be like Jesus...

Agreed, which is why if you look back through my posts on this thread you will see that I consider the RCC position on praying to saints to be either unscriptural or potentially problematic. That said, Stephen's martyrdom calls us to stand firm for the gospel in the face of torture and death. Paul's tenacity and fearlessness in spreading the gospel is something I wish I had. These are examples of what the believer can do in Christ, supported by the power of the Holy Spirit, and within the will of God. Conforming one's life to the image of Christ does not mean ignoring the examples of faithful believers before us.

267 posted on 04/21/2015 6:50:21 AM PDT by FateAmenableToChange
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To: Elsie

And then you got the thief on the cross. Unless sleeping is equivalent with Paradise, the thief didn’t sleep either.


268 posted on 04/21/2015 6:51:32 AM PDT by DannyTN
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To: Elsie
Mallard Fillmore

ROTFL!

269 posted on 04/21/2015 6:53:31 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas

“He still looks like a lamb. He still looks as though He had been slain.”

You are reading a prophetic vision, which is given in symbols, as if it were the actual state of Christ. It’s not. We have seen clear descriptions of Christ’s glorified form elsewhere, not in prophetic visions, and he doesn’t look like a lamb, slain or otherwise.

Also, the New Testament is quite clear that Christ died once, and for all time:

“9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.”

Romans 6:9-10


270 posted on 04/21/2015 6:56:13 AM PDT by Boogieman
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To: MamaB

++I pray to Jesus only.++

Do you not pray the Our Father prayer that Jesus gave us? Do you not ever call upon the Holy Spirit?


271 posted on 04/21/2015 7:12:32 AM PDT by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo....Sum Pro Vita - Modified Descartes)
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To: Elsie
Ain't YOPIOS grand? I do it all the time, and I don't particularly care who knows it. 😄😀😃🙈🙉🙊😇😂😱 Do I qualify as a HATER?😩😡
272 posted on 04/21/2015 7:17:41 AM PDT by Mark17 (Beyond the sunset, O blissful morning, when with our Savior, Heaven is begun. Earth's toiling ended)
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To: HangnJudge

++Why pray to a Saint
when one has a straight connection to G.D++

Didn’t God create us all to be ONE with Him? We are to be united with God and with one another. His love works through all of us in this way.


273 posted on 04/21/2015 7:17:59 AM PDT by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo....Sum Pro Vita - Modified Descartes)
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To: SumProVita
Didn’t God create us all to be ONE with Him? We are to be united with God and with one another. His love works through all of us in this way.

This theology...what religion is this?
274 posted on 04/21/2015 7:19:45 AM PDT by Resettozero
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Comment #275 Removed by Moderator

To: Iscool

Words have meanings. Apparently the entire legal profession misdefines the word “prayer”. Someone should let them know.


276 posted on 04/21/2015 7:26:14 AM PDT by reagandemocrat
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To: WayneS

++Asking someone to pray FOR you is not the same as praying TO someone.++

That looks like a communication error to me. If someone has ASKED for the intercession of a Saint, that person might say, “I prayed to St. Paul for help.” What is meant by that is that St. Paul has been asked for intercessory help..i.e. praying to God for the person who asked.


277 posted on 04/21/2015 7:29:23 AM PDT by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo....Sum Pro Vita - Modified Descartes)
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To: Mrs. Don-o; RnMomof7
>>Please send me the name of any Catholic FReeper who has ever said that we don't pray to saints.<<

We don’t pray “to” saints. This is a mistaken way of saying we ask the saints to pray for us.

Do you pray “to” your sister? Or do you ask your sister to pray for you?

7 posted on 3/27/2015, 11:54:39 AM by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)

--------------------------------

A post denying Catholics pray to Mary here.

-----------------------------------

278 posted on 04/21/2015 7:29:38 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: vladimir998

Yes.

But that has little to do with praying to saints.


279 posted on 04/21/2015 7:31:49 AM PDT by WayneS (Barack Obama makes Neville Chamberlin look like George Patton.)
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To: Resettozero

The one that recognizes that the Triune God has called us to be united with Him...to be united as Jesus and the Father are united.

The Bible has quite a lot to say about this topic.


280 posted on 04/21/2015 7:34:38 AM PDT by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo....Sum Pro Vita - Modified Descartes)
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