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Three Things You're Probably Getting Wrong about Praying to the Saints
Shameless popery ^ | April 20, 2015

Posted on 04/20/2015 1:46:59 PM PDT by NYer

As Christianity Today acknowledges, prayers for and to the Saints date back to the early Church (in fact, these practices date back far earlier, even to Old Testament Judaism, but I'll talk more about that tomorrow). Nevertheless, these practices are controversial within Protestantism. Today, I want to look at just one of them -- prayer to the Saints -- and show why the opposition to it is grounded in a faulty view of life after death. Tomorrow, I'll look at the Biblical support for both prayer to the Saints and prayer for the Saints.

First, a word on why Protestants tend to object to prayer to the Saints. For some people, such prayers are sinful, since they think it gives glory to someone other than God, or that it's equivalent to “consulting the dead.” Others view it simply as impossible, since they think that the Saints can't hear us, or are unconcerned with what's going on here below. But almost all of these arguments are built upon the same three misconceptions about the souls of the Saints who have gone before us. Given this, let's present the Biblical view on each of these three major points:

Johann Michael Rottmayr, Intercession of Charles Borromeo supported by the Virgin Mary (1714)
1. The Saints in Heaven are Alive, not Dead.

The first mistake in opposing “prayers to the dead” is assuming that we're praying to “the dead.” One of the most frequently cited passages against prayer to the Saints in Heaven is Isaiah 8:19,
And when they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the wizards who chirp and mutter,” should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?
Those who oppose prayer to the Saints present a straightforward argument: the faithful departed are dead, and it's sinful to “consult the dead.”

But the first premise -- that the faithful departed are dead -- is false, and directly contrary to Scripture. Jesus actually denounces this view as Biblically ignorant (Mk. 12:24). He reveals the truth about the Saints when He says, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die” (John 11:25-26). And in response to the Sadduccees, He says (Mark 12:26-27):
And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.
So the Protestant view that says that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are “dead” is “quite wrong.”

Read the literature written against prayers to the Saints, and see how frequently they're mischaracterized as “the dead.” This isn't a harmless mistake. The passages warning against “the dead” simply don't apply to the question of the Saints. Indeed, a great many popular assumptions about the afterlife are built on the idea that verses like Psalm 115:17 (“The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any that go down into the silence”) apply to the Saints in Heaven. They don't, and Christ tells us that they don't.

The Ladder of Divine Ascent (12th c. icon)
2. The Saints in Heaven are Witnesses, not Sleeping or Ignorant.

Related to the first mistake is the idea that the departed Saints are cut off from us on Earth, and that it's therefore immoral (or at least futile) to communicate with them. This belief takes two general forms: first that the souls of the just are “asleep” until the Resurrection; second, that the souls are isolated in Heaven.

First, soul sleep. The United Church of God argues against praying to “dead” saints:
In addition to all this, praying to dead saints today assumes the doctrine of the immortal soul, which many people are surprised to find is not taught in the Bible. The Bible teaches that death is like sleep that lasts until the resurrection at Jesus Christ's second coming (1 Thessalonians:4:13-16 ).
Now, United Church of God aren't mainstream Protestants by any stretch: they are Sabbatarians (meaning that they reject Sunday worship) and they reject the Trinity. But this notion of soul sleep can be traced to Martin Luther, who wrote:
For the Christian sleeps in death and in that way enters into life, but the godless departs from life and experiences death forever [...] Hence death is also called in the Scriptures a sleep. For just as he who falls asleep does not know how it happens, and he greets the morning when he awakes, so shall we suddenly arise on the last day, and never know how we entered and passed through death.
Even Luther's most militant supporters concede that he held some sort of confused and often-contradictory notion of “soul sleep.” So, too, did many of the Radical Reformers. In this view, the souls of the Saints aren't “conscious,” and so it would be futile to ask them for prayers.

The second camp rejects soul sleep, but thinks that the souls in Heaven are isolated from us. For example, the website “Just for Catholics” acknowledges that the first half of the Hail Mary comes directly from Scripture, but says that these Scriptures aren't permitted to be used as prayer:
Even though the first two sentences are taken from the Bible, it does not mean that it is right to use them as a prayer. Mary could hear the salutations of the Gabriel and Elizabeth because they spoke in her immediate presence. Now Mary is dead and her soul is in heaven. She cannot hear the prayers of thousands and thousands who constantly call upon her name. Only the all-knowing God can hear the prayers of His people.
But Scripture doesn't present the Saints in Heaven as isolated or spiritually asleep. Rather, even in their “rest,” they're presented as alert and aware of the goings-on of Earth (Revelation 6:9-11):
I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
Perhaps the clearest description of the relationship between the Saints in Heaven and the saints on Earth is in the Book of Hebrews. Chapter 11 is a litany of Saints who lived by faith, leading immediately into this (Heb. 12:1-2):
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
The spiritual life is compared to competing in a race, an image that Paul uses elsewhere (1 Corinthians 9:24-27; 2 Timothy 4:6-7). Here, the imagery is fleshed out to show that the Saints in Heaven are a great crowd of witnesses in the stands. Obviously, this idea of the heavenly Saints as “a crowd of witnesses” is incompatible with the idea that they're either asleep or unavailable to see us.

Matthias Gerung, John's Vision, from the Ottheinrich Bible (1531)
3. The Saints in Heaven are Still Part of the Church.

The Biblical depiction of the Saints as the heavenly witnesses in the grandstands of our spiritual race rebuts a third view: namely, that the Saints are enjoying God's company so much that they've stopped caring about us. For example, a Christian Post column on the subject seems to suggest that the Saints don't do anything for us once they're in Heaven:
So yes, they are not really dead. But that doesn't mean they hear our prayers, or provide even the slightest bit of assistance in answer to our prayers, regardless of how noble their lives may have been while on earth. God doesn't use saints in heaven to bless saints on earth. Instead, God utilizes His holy angels to minister to His children on earth. 
Such a view gets things entirely backwards. Rather, their holiness and their enjoyment of God means that they love us and care for us all the more. That's why they're witnesses to our spiritual race; that's why the martyrs in Heaven are still concerned with justice on Earth. The more we love God, the more we love our neighbor. And the Saints love God with a perfection impossible to us here below.

One way to think about this is to remember the shocking fact that the Saints are still part of the Church. The Bible describeds the Church as both the Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ. For example, St. Paul tells us that the Church is the Body of Christ (Colossians 1:18, 24), and the Body of Christ is the Church (Ephesians 5:23). The Saints aren't somehow cut off from Christ in Heaven, which is why we see the Holy Spirit presenting the Bride of Christ in Heaven (Revelation 21:9, 22:17). That membership in the Church helps to explain their heavenly intercession (1 Corinthians 12:24-26):
But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part, that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. If one member of suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
So both perfect Christian charity and our union in the Body of Christ help to account for why the Saints intercede for us. 

Conclusion

Scripture repeatedly calls for us to pray for one another (e.g., 1 Thessalonians 5:25; 2 Thes. 3:1; Colossians 4:3; Hebrews 13:18), to make “supplications for all the saints” (Ephesians 6:18), and for “supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings” to be made “for all men” (1 Timothy 2:1). Neither in praying for one another nor in asking one another for prayers do we risk offending God in the slightest. Quite the contrary: “This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:3-4).

The Catholic position simply applies these Scriptural teaching to the entire Body of Christ, while the standard Protestant position says that these teachings don't apply to the parts of the Church that are already in Heaven. The view goes awry in calling for us to ignore an entire portion of the Body of Christ: urging us not to pray for the faithful departed, and not to ask the Saints in glory to pray for us. Scripture calls for us to “have the same care for one another,” to suffer and triumph with the other parts of the Body. The Saints' glory is ours; our struggles are theirs. 

As you can see from the above post, many of the most popular arguments against praying to the Saints are based on false ideas about what happens to the souls of the just after death: thinking that the Saints are dead, or asleep, or isolated, or apathetic, or outside the Church. In fact, they're alive and before God, yet still connected to us, witnessing our triumphs, failures and struggles, all the while rooting for us and praying for us. 

With a correct view of the state of the glorified Saints and their role in the Church, most of the arguments against seeking their intercession simply dissolve. There's simply no good reason to cut the heavenly Saints off from the rest of the Body. You're surrounded by Heavenly witnesses who are supporting you in your spiritual race. What's more, they're your brothers and sisters in Christ. Given this, by all means, ask for their spiritual help and encouragement!


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Mainline Protestant; Other Christian; Prayer
KEYWORDS: prayer; prayerstosaints; praying; saints; venoration
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To: Alex Murphy; ealgeone
I sure hope you're not an attorney in life.

I'm beginning to think he didn't even sleep at a Holiday Inn last night.

Rather, The catholic position ignores the Protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura using only the Protestant Bible as the sole authority on this issue.

The selected application of Sola Scriptura in your comment exposes its shortcoming. Not having an injunction or example in the Protestant Bible is insufficient to declare something true or false. There are no injunctions or examples of other truths you likely take for granted in the Protestant Bible either, principal among them Sola Scriptura itself, nor the Canon, with the last book in said Bible identifying all the preceding books to be included in said Bible.

The other problem haunting Protestantism and its derivative movements is a dissonant lack of historicity.

201 posted on 04/20/2015 7:29:23 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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To: af_vet_1981
The catholic position ignores the Protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura using only the Protestant Bible as the sole authority on this issue.

Actually, it appears the catholic position ignores the Bible while placing more emphasis on catholic tradition to its error as noted in my post 177.

You will also notice the appeal to the written word in my post 139.

202 posted on 04/20/2015 7:33:15 PM PDT by ealgeone
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To: Mrs. Don-o; Iscool
You ought to look into this, iscool. For someone who does not believe the Pope is infallible under any circumstances, you seem to think Catholics hold the saints to be infallible in every circumstance.

That does not follow, as he was not responding to a claim of infallible teaching, but "Nobody thinks that the saints in heaven act as independent agents, dispensing favors by their own power or piety, apart from Christ Our Lord."

iscool responded with "false rcc teachings on Mary," the like of which also has popes as sources, and which, even if not "official," is uncensored teaching by RCs.

Now since you responded with distinguishing infallible teaching from what Iscool listed, then we can dispense with the majority of what RCs profess and practice, and parts of encyclicals and the CCC that do not infallible dogma. But which makes an infallible list of all infallible teachings needful, as well as an infallible interpreter to avoid or reduce interpretive variants, such as we see.

However, even if you uphold every teachings of the Ordinary Mag. also, and win the debate with the SSPX and SSPV over modern RC teaching, then we must still deal with the vast collection of accolades given to Mary, as well as the vast collection of unofficial RC apologetics. Which does testify to what many/most RCs believe, and for you to dismiss that simply because it is not infallible or official promulgation itself is hardly reasonable.

203 posted on 04/20/2015 7:39:40 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

“You seem to think that miracles granted to people who love Jesus and trust in Jesus, are to be set aside because they could be of Satan.”

I’m wary of anyone who wants us to base doctrines on such evidence, when we’ve been warned the enemy will try to manipulate us with just such evidence. It seems much more prudent to base doctrine on the Word of God, since we know the source of that communication with certainty.

“Jesus Himself was confronted by the same concern: the Pharisees charged that he drove out demons by the power of Beelzebul....”

Doesn’t seem to be a very good comparison to me. If Satan has counterfeited a miracle purporting to confirm to you that some “saint” is in heaven, this is not equivalent to casting out demons. It could very well be a lie designed to mislead you, for Satan’s purposes. There is nothing intrinsic in that kind of message that tells me that can only come from the spirit of God.

“Do not confuse miracles with superstition. The Church has never been without the kinds of wonders described in the Acts of the Apostles. They glorify God. And that makes the demons tremble.”

No, your church doesn’t display the same type of miracles that were described in Acts. Your bishops, who claim to be equivalent to apostles, don’t, for example, raise the dead, or speak in tongues, as described in the Bible (so that a crowd would all hear them in a different language). Show me something like that and maybe I would be convinced of their claims.


204 posted on 04/20/2015 8:04:08 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: ealgeone
This is the danger of catholic "tradition" and why it is rejected by Christians.

Actually a majority of the world's Christians do accept Catholicism and its Sacred Tradition. Please do not try to restrict the term Christian by the use of the "no true Scotsman" argument.

205 posted on 04/20/2015 8:19:08 PM PDT by Petrosius
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To: conservativesister

“I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;”

1 Timothy 4:1

“3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.

4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.”

1 Corinthians 4:3-5

“21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

Matthew 7:21-23

“Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

John 14:6

“Are you referring to predestination/Calvinism?”

No, just to the fact that only God knows what is in our hearts, so only God can judge who is truly saved and who isn’t. To think that God is bound to honor the dictates of some body of men in this matter is foolishness.


206 posted on 04/20/2015 8:23:57 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: Mrs. Don-o
That's why you keep getting the vapors about "This is what Catholics believe!" when you have not once (that I know of) tried to distinguish whether it is a teaching of the Church, or not.

Well, it's like this...When your religion teaches against priest raping young boys yet your popes do nothing about those that do, THAT is the teaching of the Catholic religion...

If I tell you that I abhor alcoholics but all my closest friends are drunks, it's not too hard to figure out the truth of the matter...

When we see your religion condemning praying to Mary and then a pope gets on his knees in front of millions of Catholics and thanks Mary for saving his life, we KNOW the real teaching of your religion regardless of what it says on paper...

207 posted on 04/20/2015 8:41:07 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Iscool
When we see your religion condemning praying to Mary…

We condemn WORSHIPPING Mary, not PRAYING to her. Why is this so hard to understand?

208 posted on 04/20/2015 8:56:46 PM PDT by Petrosius
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To: RnMomof7
THEY WERE WITNESSES TO US... NOT WITNESSING US

This is made so clear in Scripture that it is shocking and surprising when some twist that passage of us "being surrounded with so great a cloud of witnesses" to mean they can all see what WE are doing here on earth or in some way rationalizing us "praying" to them. I cannot imagine Heaven would be the wonderful place God tells us it is if souls there have a ringside seat to all the atrocities and cruelties going on in this world - some even in the very name of Christ!

209 posted on 04/20/2015 9:51:49 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Petrosius
We condemn WORSHIPPING Mary, not PRAYING to her. Why is this so hard to understand?

Praying to something is worshiping...Your religion can't make up its own definition for prayer, or worship...

210 posted on 04/20/2015 10:01:26 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Iscool
Praying to something is worshiping...Your religion can't make up its own definition for prayer, or worship...

Nor can you ignore other valid definitions. From Merriam-Webster.com:

pray

verb \ˈprā\

: to speak to God especially in order to give thanks or to ask for something

: to hope or wish very much for something to happen

: to seriously ask (someone) to do something

Full Definition of PRAY

transitive verb

1 : entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea

2 : to get or bring by praying

intransitive verb

1 : to make a request in a humble manner

2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

Examples of PRAY

There's little else to do now but hope and pray.

The minister said, “Let us pray.”

He prayed that they would have the strength to go on.

He prayed that he would find a parking spot.

Origin of PRAY
Middle English, from Anglo-French prier, praer, preier, from Latin precari, from prec-, prex request, prayer; akin to Old High German frāga question, frāgēn to ask, Sanskrit pṛcchati he asks

First Known Use: 13th century

Related to PRAY
Synonyms
appeal (to), beseech, besiege, conjure, entreat, impetrate, implore, importune, petition, plead (to), beg, solicit, supplicate
When Catholics use "prayer" in reference to the saints they are using it in the sense of the intransitive definition #1: "to make a request in a humble manner." And the request is that they pray to God for us. To insist that it means "worship" when this is not the intention of the speaker is to bear false witness. I would expect better from one who claims to be a Christian.
211 posted on 04/20/2015 10:41:43 PM PDT by Petrosius
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To: Petrosius

There is a “Prayer for Relief” in every complaint filed in every court in the country. Pretty sure they aren’t “worshipping” the judges.


212 posted on 04/20/2015 11:09:15 PM PDT by reagandemocrat
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas
the saints in heaven present our prayers to God.

What? You can't present them yourself? How stupid is that?

213 posted on 04/21/2015 1:05:34 AM PDT by tbpiper
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To: Salvation
Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross saved them. They need to do their part now.

So the cross only covered some sins? And the sins it didn't cover you have to pay for on your own? You're still peddling a salvation by works.

My 'part' is to accept His work on the cross by faith. Not try to match it with my efforts.

214 posted on 04/21/2015 1:11:08 AM PDT by tbpiper
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To: Iscool; Petrosius
Praying to something is worshiping...Your religion can't make up its own definition for prayer, or worship...

This hilarious, especially given coming from you.

215 posted on 04/21/2015 2:50:06 AM PDT by verga (I might as well be playing chess with pigeons,.)
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To: NYer
It can be argued that, having been saved, anyone who "gave up the Ghost and fell asleep (ala Stephen) can be considered a saint because in God's eyes, they are.

When asked how to pray, Jesus instructed, "When you do it, do it something like this; Our Father, which art in heaven....."

The articles biggest support for praying to mortals who have since passed on is that the saved do not perish but have eternal life - pretty agile mental gymnastics. I will not begrudge Y'All from praying to whomever you want, but it seems odd that, even after Jesus walked the Earth to become the one door between us and God, that we wouldn't prefer to pray to Him or directly to the Father.

216 posted on 04/21/2015 2:50:44 AM PDT by trebb (Where in the the hell has my country gone?)
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To: NYer
The concept of praying to the saints, dates back to before the 1st century. That meaning persists.

Ah, yes, Tradition! I always forget how important that is...

217 posted on 04/21/2015 3:25:21 AM PDT by LearnsFromMistakes (Yes, I am happy to see you. But that IS a gun in my pocket.)
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To: Petrosius
The union between the Immaculata and the Holy Spirit is so inexpressible, yet so perfect, that the Holy Spirit acts only by the Most Blessed Virgin, his Spouse. This is why she is the mediatrix of all graces given by the Holy Spirit. And since every grace is a gift of God the Father through the Son and by the Holy Spirit, it follows that there is no grace which Mary cannot dispose of as her own, which is not given to her for this purpose." — Manteau-Bonamy, Immaculate Conception, 91; F.X. Durrwell, The Holy Spirit of God (Cincinnati: Servant Books, 2006), 183-185

Do you, as a catholic, accept this part of catholic tradition?

It's a yes or no question.

218 posted on 04/21/2015 4:15:06 AM PDT by ealgeone
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To: Petrosius
We condemn WORSHIPPING Mary, not PRAYING to her. Why is this so hard to understand?

As seen below, catholicism has gone way beyond worship of Mary.....

The union between the Immaculata and the Holy Spirit is so inexpressible, yet so perfect, that the Holy Spirit acts only by the Most Blessed Virgin, his Spouse. This is why she is the mediatrix of all graces given by the Holy Spirit. And since every grace is a gift of God the Father through the Son and by the Holy Spirit, it follows that there is no grace which Mary cannot dispose of as her own, which is not given to her for this purpose." — Manteau-Bonamy, Immaculate Conception, 91; F.X. Durrwell, The Holy Spirit of God (Cincinnati: Servant Books, 2006), 183-185

219 posted on 04/21/2015 4:17:27 AM PDT by ealgeone
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To: NYer; LearnsFromMistakes
The concept of praying to the saints, dates back to before the 1st century. That meaning persists.

Yet, we never see Paul, Peter, James, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, ever praying to Moses, Abraham, Isaac, etc.

220 posted on 04/21/2015 4:22:58 AM PDT by ealgeone
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