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Three Things You're Probably Getting Wrong about Praying to the Saints
Shameless popery ^ | April 20, 2015

Posted on 04/20/2015 1:46:59 PM PDT by NYer

As Christianity Today acknowledges, prayers for and to the Saints date back to the early Church (in fact, these practices date back far earlier, even to Old Testament Judaism, but I'll talk more about that tomorrow). Nevertheless, these practices are controversial within Protestantism. Today, I want to look at just one of them -- prayer to the Saints -- and show why the opposition to it is grounded in a faulty view of life after death. Tomorrow, I'll look at the Biblical support for both prayer to the Saints and prayer for the Saints.

First, a word on why Protestants tend to object to prayer to the Saints. For some people, such prayers are sinful, since they think it gives glory to someone other than God, or that it's equivalent to “consulting the dead.” Others view it simply as impossible, since they think that the Saints can't hear us, or are unconcerned with what's going on here below. But almost all of these arguments are built upon the same three misconceptions about the souls of the Saints who have gone before us. Given this, let's present the Biblical view on each of these three major points:

Johann Michael Rottmayr, Intercession of Charles Borromeo supported by the Virgin Mary (1714)
1. The Saints in Heaven are Alive, not Dead.

The first mistake in opposing “prayers to the dead” is assuming that we're praying to “the dead.” One of the most frequently cited passages against prayer to the Saints in Heaven is Isaiah 8:19,
And when they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the wizards who chirp and mutter,” should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?
Those who oppose prayer to the Saints present a straightforward argument: the faithful departed are dead, and it's sinful to “consult the dead.”

But the first premise -- that the faithful departed are dead -- is false, and directly contrary to Scripture. Jesus actually denounces this view as Biblically ignorant (Mk. 12:24). He reveals the truth about the Saints when He says, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die” (John 11:25-26). And in response to the Sadduccees, He says (Mark 12:26-27):
And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.
So the Protestant view that says that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are “dead” is “quite wrong.”

Read the literature written against prayers to the Saints, and see how frequently they're mischaracterized as “the dead.” This isn't a harmless mistake. The passages warning against “the dead” simply don't apply to the question of the Saints. Indeed, a great many popular assumptions about the afterlife are built on the idea that verses like Psalm 115:17 (“The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any that go down into the silence”) apply to the Saints in Heaven. They don't, and Christ tells us that they don't.

The Ladder of Divine Ascent (12th c. icon)
2. The Saints in Heaven are Witnesses, not Sleeping or Ignorant.

Related to the first mistake is the idea that the departed Saints are cut off from us on Earth, and that it's therefore immoral (or at least futile) to communicate with them. This belief takes two general forms: first that the souls of the just are “asleep” until the Resurrection; second, that the souls are isolated in Heaven.

First, soul sleep. The United Church of God argues against praying to “dead” saints:
In addition to all this, praying to dead saints today assumes the doctrine of the immortal soul, which many people are surprised to find is not taught in the Bible. The Bible teaches that death is like sleep that lasts until the resurrection at Jesus Christ's second coming (1 Thessalonians:4:13-16 ).
Now, United Church of God aren't mainstream Protestants by any stretch: they are Sabbatarians (meaning that they reject Sunday worship) and they reject the Trinity. But this notion of soul sleep can be traced to Martin Luther, who wrote:
For the Christian sleeps in death and in that way enters into life, but the godless departs from life and experiences death forever [...] Hence death is also called in the Scriptures a sleep. For just as he who falls asleep does not know how it happens, and he greets the morning when he awakes, so shall we suddenly arise on the last day, and never know how we entered and passed through death.
Even Luther's most militant supporters concede that he held some sort of confused and often-contradictory notion of “soul sleep.” So, too, did many of the Radical Reformers. In this view, the souls of the Saints aren't “conscious,” and so it would be futile to ask them for prayers.

The second camp rejects soul sleep, but thinks that the souls in Heaven are isolated from us. For example, the website “Just for Catholics” acknowledges that the first half of the Hail Mary comes directly from Scripture, but says that these Scriptures aren't permitted to be used as prayer:
Even though the first two sentences are taken from the Bible, it does not mean that it is right to use them as a prayer. Mary could hear the salutations of the Gabriel and Elizabeth because they spoke in her immediate presence. Now Mary is dead and her soul is in heaven. She cannot hear the prayers of thousands and thousands who constantly call upon her name. Only the all-knowing God can hear the prayers of His people.
But Scripture doesn't present the Saints in Heaven as isolated or spiritually asleep. Rather, even in their “rest,” they're presented as alert and aware of the goings-on of Earth (Revelation 6:9-11):
I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
Perhaps the clearest description of the relationship between the Saints in Heaven and the saints on Earth is in the Book of Hebrews. Chapter 11 is a litany of Saints who lived by faith, leading immediately into this (Heb. 12:1-2):
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
The spiritual life is compared to competing in a race, an image that Paul uses elsewhere (1 Corinthians 9:24-27; 2 Timothy 4:6-7). Here, the imagery is fleshed out to show that the Saints in Heaven are a great crowd of witnesses in the stands. Obviously, this idea of the heavenly Saints as “a crowd of witnesses” is incompatible with the idea that they're either asleep or unavailable to see us.

Matthias Gerung, John's Vision, from the Ottheinrich Bible (1531)
3. The Saints in Heaven are Still Part of the Church.

The Biblical depiction of the Saints as the heavenly witnesses in the grandstands of our spiritual race rebuts a third view: namely, that the Saints are enjoying God's company so much that they've stopped caring about us. For example, a Christian Post column on the subject seems to suggest that the Saints don't do anything for us once they're in Heaven:
So yes, they are not really dead. But that doesn't mean they hear our prayers, or provide even the slightest bit of assistance in answer to our prayers, regardless of how noble their lives may have been while on earth. God doesn't use saints in heaven to bless saints on earth. Instead, God utilizes His holy angels to minister to His children on earth. 
Such a view gets things entirely backwards. Rather, their holiness and their enjoyment of God means that they love us and care for us all the more. That's why they're witnesses to our spiritual race; that's why the martyrs in Heaven are still concerned with justice on Earth. The more we love God, the more we love our neighbor. And the Saints love God with a perfection impossible to us here below.

One way to think about this is to remember the shocking fact that the Saints are still part of the Church. The Bible describeds the Church as both the Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ. For example, St. Paul tells us that the Church is the Body of Christ (Colossians 1:18, 24), and the Body of Christ is the Church (Ephesians 5:23). The Saints aren't somehow cut off from Christ in Heaven, which is why we see the Holy Spirit presenting the Bride of Christ in Heaven (Revelation 21:9, 22:17). That membership in the Church helps to explain their heavenly intercession (1 Corinthians 12:24-26):
But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part, that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. If one member of suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
So both perfect Christian charity and our union in the Body of Christ help to account for why the Saints intercede for us. 

Conclusion

Scripture repeatedly calls for us to pray for one another (e.g., 1 Thessalonians 5:25; 2 Thes. 3:1; Colossians 4:3; Hebrews 13:18), to make “supplications for all the saints” (Ephesians 6:18), and for “supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings” to be made “for all men” (1 Timothy 2:1). Neither in praying for one another nor in asking one another for prayers do we risk offending God in the slightest. Quite the contrary: “This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:3-4).

The Catholic position simply applies these Scriptural teaching to the entire Body of Christ, while the standard Protestant position says that these teachings don't apply to the parts of the Church that are already in Heaven. The view goes awry in calling for us to ignore an entire portion of the Body of Christ: urging us not to pray for the faithful departed, and not to ask the Saints in glory to pray for us. Scripture calls for us to “have the same care for one another,” to suffer and triumph with the other parts of the Body. The Saints' glory is ours; our struggles are theirs. 

As you can see from the above post, many of the most popular arguments against praying to the Saints are based on false ideas about what happens to the souls of the just after death: thinking that the Saints are dead, or asleep, or isolated, or apathetic, or outside the Church. In fact, they're alive and before God, yet still connected to us, witnessing our triumphs, failures and struggles, all the while rooting for us and praying for us. 

With a correct view of the state of the glorified Saints and their role in the Church, most of the arguments against seeking their intercession simply dissolve. There's simply no good reason to cut the heavenly Saints off from the rest of the Body. You're surrounded by Heavenly witnesses who are supporting you in your spiritual race. What's more, they're your brothers and sisters in Christ. Given this, by all means, ask for their spiritual help and encouragement!


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Mainline Protestant; Other Christian; Prayer
KEYWORDS: prayer; prayerstosaints; praying; saints; venoration
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To: NYer

Wonderful post. Thanks.


141 posted on 04/20/2015 5:27:22 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: taxcontrol
Given the option of how and to whom to pray, I will follow Jesus’ teachings.

Roman Catholicism does everything possible to prevent its worshipers from having a born-of-the-Spirit encounter with Lord Jesus Christ. It decoys worshipers away from the only thing that can save their eternal souls, even claiming that RC worshipers partake of the very flesh and blood of Jesus Christ, to make them "feel" closer to Jesus while worshiping, in fact, Catholicism itself, not to be confused with Christianity.

The RCC continues to downplay the Lord Jesus Christ's work He FINISHED on the cross by perpetually keeping Him on the cross as the perpetual victim .

Roman Catholicism has no idea Who Jesus Christ really is nor the Church He founded on Himself.

Such a belief system is abhorrent to believers in Lord Jesus Christ alone, once they are allowed to see what it is that the RCC promulgates year after year.
142 posted on 04/20/2015 5:28:02 PM PDT by Resettozero
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Lots of Scripture quotes, but none giving credence to your premise...

Here's a quote from a RCC favorite...

James 2: 2 My brothers and sisters, believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ must not show favoritism. 2 Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in filthy old clothes also comes in. 3 If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, “Here’s a good seat for you,” but say to the poor man, “You stand there” or “Sit on the floor by my feet,” 4 have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?


143 posted on 04/20/2015 5:28:30 PM PDT by WVKayaker (Impeachment is the Constitution's answer for a derelict, incompetent president! -Sarah Palin 7/26/14)
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To: Iscool
It's all intercession within the Body of Christ. I think some of the critics of this holy and continual mutual help do not understand what our unity in the Body of Christ means in practice.

That said, the words "Pray for us" are usually part of the prayer; and when they are not explicit, they are nevertheless understood. Nobody thinks that the saints in heaven act as independent agents, dispensing favors by their own power or piety, apart from Christ Our Lord.

Notice HERE (Link), the the classic Litany of the Saints, the difference between how the Saints are addressed, and how Our Lord is addressed.

The Lord is asked to have mercy on us and save us.

And you'll notice (tagline) the angels, too, intercede, by offering our prayers to God.

144 posted on 04/20/2015 5:35:35 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (The smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel)
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To: NYer; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; CynicalBear; daniel1212; Gamecock; HossB86; ...
YOPIOS. By what authority do YOU interpret scripture?

This is really funny ... The magisterium has only "infallibly" interpreted a few verses of scripture.. every homily, every RC bible study, every RC apologist and every RC posting on FR are doing nothing more that YOPIOS ... and because of biblical ignorance have no idea what they are talking about

145 posted on 04/20/2015 5:37:15 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: WVKayaker

Not appropriate on a Religion forum thread. This thread isn’t about Satanism.


146 posted on 04/20/2015 5:38:11 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: WVKayaker
That's a very beautiful quote, WVKayacker. It has a lot of relevance in our lives, though I'm not sure howyou mean it to connect the topic at hand.
147 posted on 04/20/2015 5:38:17 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (The smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel)
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To: NYer
This belief takes two general forms: first that the souls of the just are “asleep” until the Resurrection; second, that the souls are isolated in Heaven.

Makes me wonder just where crazy ideas like this get started...


Psalm 13:3
Look on me and answer, Lord my God. Give light to my eyes, or I will sleep in death,
 
Psalm 90:5
Yet you sweep people away in the sleep of death— they are like the new grass of the morning:
 
Daniel 12:2
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
 
 
John 11:12-13
His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.”
Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.
 

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
Listen, I tell you a mystery:
We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.
For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
 

Ephesians 5:14
This is why it is said: “Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.”
 
 
1 Thessalonians 4:13
Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.
 

148 posted on 04/20/2015 5:40:08 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: RnMomof7
THERE WERE NO CHAPTERS IN THE EPISTLES WHEN WRITTEN ...So Chapter 11 and Chapter 12 are the same topic.. So what is the topic of chapter 11??? IT IS THE ROLL CALL OF SAINTS SAVED BY FAITH

Correct: The text, "surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses" refers to just that, being in the company of such as part of the same body, but not as communicating with them in Heaven, which is nowhere seen. Nor any Roman purgatory.

149 posted on 04/20/2015 5:41:28 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: tbpiper

The souls in Purgatory did not do the reparation for their sins while on earth....that is the purpose of Purgatory. To purge them of their sins so that they can be purified to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross saved them. They need to do their part now.


150 posted on 04/20/2015 5:41:42 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: WVKayaker
The purpose of the many Scripture verses about "glory" is to refute this statement of yours:

"They glorify personalities. And that makes the demons tremble gleefully party." As is clear from these quotes, it is God who has the power and the desire to glorify His saints; when the saints are glorified, God is glorified.

151 posted on 04/20/2015 5:42:53 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (The smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel)
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To: WayneS
It’s not like God is too busy to hear my prayer.

I think it's kinda like a spiritual spam filter.

My ISP gets rid of most all the junk that is flying my way; trying to clutter my in basket; so that I can deal with the important stuff; so these undead saints can toss the chaff out that wouldn't get answered anyway.


Ya gotta remember these saints just work in the mailroom; the Executive Secretary works REALLY close to the throne...




Let's try some easy math:


There are approximately 1.2 billion Catholics world wide;

If merely 1% of them  'ask' Mary for help just once each day;

that means that 12 million separate prayers are headed Mary's direction every day.

Given that there are 86,400 seconds per day... (24 hours times 60 minutes times 60 seconds)

...that means that Mary has to handle approximately 139 'requests' per second!

Purty good fer someone NOT 'divine'!

152 posted on 04/20/2015 5:43:54 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Salvation; tbpiper
The souls in Purgatory did not do the reparation for their sins while on earth....that is the purpose of Purgatory. To purge them of their sins so that they can be purified to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Yea they missed their 3 "Hail Marys" and 3 "Our Fathers".. so they have to do some burn time

Thank God that Jesus took the punishment I deserved for me...

153 posted on 04/20/2015 5:44:42 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Biggirl
It is simply to ASK those home with God to PRAY to GOD for you!

Anyone ELSE 'home with GOD' right now?

154 posted on 04/20/2015 5:45:00 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: NYer; RnMomof7; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; CynicalBear; daniel1212; Gamecock; ...

YOPIOS. By what authority do YOU interpret scripture?


That smear really works much better when it includes the cereal box picture.


155 posted on 04/20/2015 5:45:24 PM PDT by Rides_A_Red_Horse (Why do you need a fire extinguisher when you can call the fire department?)
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To: daniel1212
1 Cor 2:14But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

They just can not understand or rightly divide the word of God

156 posted on 04/20/2015 5:46:57 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Boogieman
We can hope, but we can’t assume.

Oh YEAH???!!!


157 posted on 04/20/2015 5:47:17 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Resettozero
The RCC continues to downplay the Lord Jesus Christ's work He FINISHED on the cross by perpetually keeping Him on the cross as the perpetual victim .

Rev 5:6

Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders.

What does this mean, if Christ's sacrificial death on the cross is completed?
Jesus Christ is the son of David and the king of the new and heavenly Jerusalem. He is the Lion of the tribe of Judah and He is the Lamb of God, slain from the foundation of the world, as it said elsewhere in Revelation. But here in heaven on the throne of glory, after His crucifixion, Hs resurrection, His ascension, His enthronement, He still looks like a lamb. He still looks as though He had been slain. Why not clean up the body? Why not wipe away the wounds? Why continue resembling a lamb? Because He's continuing the Passover offerings, the sacrifice. Not by dying, not by bleeding and not by suffering but by continuing to offer up Himself as the firstborn and as the unblemished lamb, as the perpetual, timeless, everlasting sacrifice of praise to the Father.

And what do the people do? They rejoice and they break out into a song. And what is the song, "Worthy art thou to take the scroll and to open its seals for thou was slain." Past tense, "And by thy blood didst ransom men for God from every tribe and tongue and people and nation." And what has he done? He's become a priest to be sure, but for what purpose? "He has made them a kingdom and priest to our God." He has made those whom he has saved priests. And what do priests do? They offer sacrifice.

Has Christ's sacrifice ended all sacrifices? No. Christ's sacrifice has ended all ineffective, bloody animal sacrifices that never did anything anyway. Now for the first time in history we can really begin to offer sacrifice to God. Romans 12 says, "Offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God." And it wouldn't be holy and acceptable except that it's united to Christ's perpetual sacrifice. He's not bleeding. He's not dying. He's not suffering, but he is offering a sacrifice as a lamb does, as a priest king does continually, forever.

And that's what it's all about. John wouldn't see a lamb looking as though it had been slain if the whole kit and caboodle was completed and done. Yes, it's completed and done, but it's still going on, and it's going to go on forever in the future. Why? Because Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever, as Hebrews tells us.

The Eucharist as the Lamb's Supper

Christ's once-for-all sacrifice on the Cross is re-presented in the Eucharist, in a manner analogous to the Seder meal making-present the Passover of Exodus.

This sacrament was instituted by Christ in the upper room, as described by St. Paul.

23For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

27So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. 30That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep [i.e., died].

Early Christians:
The Didache

"Assemble on the Lord’s day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist; but first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one. Anyone who has a difference with his fellow is not to take part with you until he has been reconciled, so as to avoid any profanation of your sacrifice [Matt. 5:23–24]. For this is the offering of which the Lord has said, ‘Everywhere and always bring me a sacrifice that is undefiled, for I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is the wonder of nations’ [Mal. 1:11, 14]" (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).

Pope Clement I

"Our sin will not be small if we eject from the episcopate those who blamelessly and holily have offered its sacrifices. Blessed are those presbyters who have already finished their course, and who have obtained a fruitful and perfect release" (Letter to the Corinthians 44:4–5 [A.D. 80]).

Ignatius of Antioch

"Make certain, therefore, that you all observe one common Eucharist; for there is but one Body of our Lord Jesus Christ, and but one cup of union with his Blood, and one single altar of sacrifice—even as there is also but one bishop, with his clergy and my own fellow servitors, the deacons. This will ensure that all your doings are in full accord with the will of God" (Letter to the Philadelphians 4 [A.D. 110]).


158 posted on 04/20/2015 5:47:45 PM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas ( Isaiah 22:22, Matthew 16:19, Revelation 3:7)
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To: Salvation
The souls in Purgatory...need to do their part now.

This one error in RCC teaching alone is responsible for many a RC lifelong worshiper postponing the most crucial decision of their life while they COULD have made the correct choice (believing in Lord Jesus Christ and Him alone), and instead, now they face the Great White Throne judgment after their resurrection from the dead.

That's what even the Catholic Bible says. (How did THAT happen?) Read it again. It's more important that winning an Internet chat.
159 posted on 04/20/2015 5:48:19 PM PDT by Resettozero
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To: NYer
OTOH, just as you have probably asked a friend to pray for you, there is nothing wrong with asking a saint to do the same thing.

None of my DEAD friends get asked very much these days.

160 posted on 04/20/2015 5:48:20 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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