Never Thirst-Taking Jesus" Literally" can be Fatal

Thoughts of Francis Turretine ^ | July 17, 2014 | TurretinFan

[RnMomof7]

Never Thirst - Taking Jesus "Literally" can be Fatal

Roman Catholics like to try to claim that they are just taking Jesus "literally" when they interpret "this is my body" to mean that what was in Jesus' hands was not bread but his physical body [FN1]. Three passages in John help to illustrate the problem with that approach: John 4, John 6, and John 7.  In the first, Jesus refers metaphorically to living water, in the second Jesus refers to himself as food and drink, and in the third Jesus offers drink to those who thirst.

In John 4, Jesus interacts with the Samaritan woman at Jacob's well.  He asks her for water, she objects because he's Jewish, and he responds that she should be asking him for water, because the water he offers is better than the water from Jacob's well. She misunderstands him as speaking physically, even after some further explanation.  She wants to stop the labor of drawing water and misunderstands Jesus' comments about "never thirst."

John 4:6-15
Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well: and it was about the sixth hour. There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink. (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.) Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans. Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water? Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle? Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.

In John 6, Jesus interacts with a number of "disciples" who want Jesus to repeat the miracle of the loaves that's reported at the beginning of the chapter.  Jesus explains that the person who believes on him will never thirst and whoever comes to him will never hunger, calling himself the "bread of life" that "came down from heaven." Jesus insists that the bread he offers is better than the manna that the people ate in the wilderness.  Jesus talks about them eating his flesh and drinking his blood, but they take him physically and go away in disgust.  Jesus explains that the words he speaks are spirit and life.  Jesus asks the twelve if they will go away too, but Peter (speaking for the group) says that they will stay with him because they believe and know that his words are the words of eternal life.

John 6:26-71
Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work? Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum. Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. 

In John 7, Jesus interacts with those at the temple for the feast.  Jesus offers the thirsty people water.  John explains to us that Jesus is speaking about the Spirit as the "rivers of flowing water."

John 7:37-39 
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

These passages illustrate Jesus' fondness for using food as a metaphor for trust in him.  We approach the Lord's table by faith, coming to Him as represented by the bread and cup.  We gain a benefit from this if we do so by faith, but not if we do so any other way.  It is not the physical elements that provide the benefit we receive, it is the Spirit.

Remember what Jesus said about clean/unclean foods:

Matthew 15:17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?

Unfortunately, it seems our Roman Catholic friends and relatives fail to understand this.  Christ is our spiritual food and drink, not our physical nourishment.

Isaiah 44:3 For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:
Psalm 105:41 He opened the rock, and the waters gushed out; they ran in the dry places like a river.
Isaiah 48:21 And they thirsted not when he led them through the deserts: he caused the waters to flow out of the rock for them: he clave the rock also, and the waters gushed out.
Psalm 78:20 Behold, he smote the rock, that the waters gushed out, and the streams overflowed; can he give bread also? can he provide flesh for his people?
1 Corinthians 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

The blessings we receive in Christ are primarily spiritual blessings.  We drink the spiritual drink from the spiritual Rock, and that Rock is Christ.  He is our Rock, we trust in Him.

To the glory of his grace!

TurretinFan

Footnote 1: I should add that the Roman Catholic position is particularly absurd in that it takes "this is my body" as implying that the bread ceases to be bread and becomes the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus.  Likewise, it is claimed that "this is ... my blood" implies exactly the same thing about the contents of the cup.  That's quite far from taking the words literally, in which the bread would just be the body, and the contents of the cup would just be the blood.

[LukeL]

So because I deny the presence of Christ in Communion I am denying the Trinity and the Holy Spirit?

[Rashputin]

Well, although throwing out part of the Old Testament is already an absolute blaspheming of the Holy Spirit, if that’s not enough of a denial of the Trinity, denying that Christ is anything other than His human flesh and blood would do the trick.

[LukeL]

What part of the OT am I throwing out? Christ as I said is 100% human and 100% God even right now he has a physical body in Heaven. Denying the PHYSICAL presence of Christ in the bread and wine has nothing to do with the denying the Holy Trinity.

[Rashputin]

Use anything other than a Catholic canon you use an incomplete Bible that has seven books missing based on the assertion that the Holy Spirit could not and did not protect His Holy Word from including those books in error from when the Septuagint was accepted prior to Christ right up until Luther.

Denying the perfection of the Holy Spirit is blaspheming the Holy Spirit pure and simple.

Denying the physical presence of His body and blood in the Eucharist is the same as saying it was impossible Christ to heal the sick by touching them, enter a locked room, or do anything supernatural prior to or after His resurrection. If someone insists that Christ was only human as we are rather than God and human, so be it. They can call that whatever they like but in reality it's denying that Christ is God and human rather than only human with some augmentation.

Yes, He still has the same physical body as the one that walked the earth, was resurrected, and now is where? Can we go there at this moment in our human bodies? No, Christ is man and God, not one or the other which is exactly how His body is present in the Eucharist exactly as He said it is. Denying His presence in the Eucharist is limiting Him to what is physically possible for any other human because that's comfortable for the person doing the denying.

Even Luther refused to contradict the clear statement of Christ Himself and taught that His body and blood are really present in the Eucharist even though he asserted that they were present due to the faith of the individual. Another case of Luther distilling everything down to Self and Self Alone which is what "Scripture Alone" and "Faith Alone" both dissolve into on careful reading of his writings and especially in practice. Scripture as my Self interprets Scripture and Faith in what my Self determines is required of me (now widely taught as being nothing more than saying the magic words when you're a kid and being home free no matter what you do thereafter).

Believe Scripture and Christ Himself or believe what your Self and Self Alone is comfortable with, that's the choice. A large part of taking up your cross and following Christ is accepting His Word rather than your own comfort zone. In fact, shedding the ever insistent Self and believing is the hardest part of taking up your cross and following Him.

[trebb]

Old heresies never die.

Sometimes, they are replaced by new heresies. Those folks then call the other folks "heretics".

[Biggirl]

Also “believe and repent” as well.

[Biggirl]

What do you think about those Bibles that do include the 7 OT books, but are put in a separate section, like what is often seen in today’s Bibles for Catholics? Thank-you and God Bless.

[Elsie]

Jesus shows us that salvation in many ways very simple. Repent and believe.

 

 

 

 

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Micah 6:8

He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.

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John 6:28-29
Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?

 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

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1 John 3:21-23
Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him.
And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

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James 1:27

Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

 

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[Elsie]

I tend to think it's because "Roman Catholic" is some sort of talismanic boogie man to a large part of the evangelical Protestant world, and that's really what this is all about.

Nah...

...the RC's are just the mouthy, boastful ones that want to be the Boss in the religious world.

We Prots LIKE taking on the Giant with our sling and a few stones.

[Iscool]

2. Apostle Paul had a definite plan to make sure his successors got the proper interpretation passed along without error: “The things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.” (2Tim 2:2)

And that's what happened...And those faithful men penned the words that Paul spoke into numerous copies of the scriptures and they were spread out to the world, hundreds of years before your religion was hatched...

3. Peter emphasized that the authority to interpret Scripture does not rest solely with the individual: “no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation.” (2Peter 1:20)

You ought to learn what the verse means before you quote it as a proof text for your false religion...

Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Paul was speaking to private individuals here...Obviously you believe the people who taught you that you aren't even smart enough to understand what Paul says in the verse...

[Elsie]

He commands us to eat His Body and Blood. His words are unmistakeable.

I missed the COMMAND...

[Elsie]

I quote these to show that Christ's Body and Blood were eaten and drunk in the very early Church.

I daresay that bread and wine were consumed; not Jesus' flesh and blood.

[Elsie]

Then obviously Christ had no siblings since leaving His mother in the care of someone not a family member would have been breaking Old Testament Law.

Golly!

I missed THAT; too!

Can you point out the verse for me?

[Elsie]

And why is this posted as religious news when it is a vanity post?

Really?

[Elsie]

You were a cradle Catholic, and yet you still post such silly garbage attributed to the Catholic faith? Yeah, right.

I like silly stuff!

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Bernadine: …all gifts, all virtues, and all graces are dispensed by the hands of Mary to whomsoever, when, and as she pleases. O Lady, since thou art the dispenser of all graces, and since the grace of salvation can ONLY come through thy hands, OUR SALVATION DEPENDS ON THEE.

Bonaventure: …the gates of heaven will open to all who confide in the protection of Mary. Blessed are they who know thee, O Mother of God, for the knowledge of THEE is the high road to everlasting life, and the publication of thy virtues is the way of ETERNAL SALVATION . Give ear, O ye nations; and all you who desire heaven , serve, honor Mary, and certainly you will find ETERNAL LIFE.

Ephem: …devotion to the divine Mother…is the unlocking of the heavenly Jerusalem.

Blosius: To the, O Lady, are committed the KEYS and the treasures of the kingdom of Heaven.

Ambrose: …constantly pray ‘Open to us, O Mary, the gates of paradise, since thou hast its KEYS.

Fulgetius: …by Mary God descended from Heaven into the world, that by HER man might ascend from earth to Heaven.

Athanasius: …And, thou, O Lady, wast filled with grace, that thou mightiest be the way of our SALVATION and the means of ascent to the heavenly Kingdom.

Richard of Laurence: Mary, in fine, is the mistress of heaven; for there she commands as she wills, and ADMITS whom she wills.

Guerric: …he who serves Mary and for whom she intercedes, is as CERTAIN of heaven as if he were already there…and those who DO NOT serve Mary will NOT BE SAVED.

Anselm: It suffices, O Lady, that thou willest it, and our SALVATION is certain.

Antoninus: …souls protected by Mary, and on which she casts her eyes, are NECESSARILY JUSTIFIED AND SAVED.

[Elsie]

People say Christ kept all the Old Testament law but does that mean Scripture is wrong and Christ actually stoned the woman caught in adultry to death?

David committed adultery.

David was not stoned.

[Elsie]

....you come along to set Catholicism straight.....

Nah...

Rome has it's LEADERS to keep it on the right course...

'

Pope Stephen VI (896–897), who had his predecessor Pope Formosus exhumed, tried, de-fingered, briefly reburied, and thrown in the Tiber.^[1]

Pope John XII (955–964), who gave land to a mistress, murdered several people, and was killed by a man who caught him in bed with his wife.

Pope Benedict IX (1032–1044, 1045, 1047–1048), who "sold" the Papacy

Pope Boniface VIII (1294–1303), who is lampooned in Dante's Divine Comedy

Pope Urban VI (1378–1389), who complained that he did not hear enough screaming when Cardinals who had conspired against him were tortured.^[2]

Pope Alexander VI (1492–1503), a Borgia, who was guilty of nepotism and whose unattended corpse swelled until it could barely fit in a coffin.^[3]

Pope Leo X (1513–1521), a spendthrift member of the Medici family who once spent 1/7 of his predecessors' reserves on a single ceremony^[4]

Pope Clement VII (1523–1534), also a Medici, whose power-politicking with France, Spain, and Germany got Rome sacked.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bad_Popes

[Elsie]

Anyone who wants to find more details can easily find them and anyone who prefers their own preconceptions is free to wallow in those preconceptions. Mox Nix.

Anyone who makes claims and then FAILS to produce evidence is dismissed as being lazy or UNABLE to back up what their fingers have typed.

Which do YOU choose to known as?

[Iscool]

font colorThen obviously Christ had no siblings since leaving His mother in the care of someone not a family member would have been breaking Old Testament Law.

(CommerceComet) Where exactly is that requirement in the Old Testament that Jesus must assign responsibility for the care of his mother to his siblings and not to someone else?

Jewish custom and tradition held in the same regard as the law, hence Christ rebuking Pharisees for setting aside money for the Temple which obligated the Rabbis to take care of their parents rather than taking care of their own parents.

Honoring your parents, according to Jewish tradition, included caring for them when they were dependent the way they cared for you when you were dependent and not placing responsibility for them on anyone not their child.

That's not even a GOOD dodge...Jesus didn't think much of the traditions of men...And still doesn't...

Mar_7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

Col_2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

[Elsie]

Sometimes, they are replaced by new heresies. Those folks then call the other folks "heretics".

So I've heard...

  "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent"

 

 (The Seer, p. 255  Orson Pratt )

AFAIK, Mormonism STILL believes and teaches this.