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Rejecting Mariology
Two-Edged Sword ^ | February 05, 2007 | Lee

Posted on 03/23/2015 2:14:57 PM PDT by RnMomof7

It is often claimed the Mary was heralded by the Patristics as a woman full of grace, perhaps sinless, and deserving our veneration above other departed saints as the Mother of the Church. This is not the case. While I do freely admit that the word Patristic can be used to cover a variety of ages, I prefer to use it to the pre-nicaean leaders of the church. Let us start with them, and we can move on from there.

In the Apostolic Fathers, as the first century leaders are often called, one sees little to no mention of Mary at all. Clement of Rome leaves her out of his epistle completely. This is a glaring omission for ‘Mary full of grace’ since Clement’s entire letter is about submission, faith, and peace. Clement uses as examples of Christian living Paul, Peter, Moses, Abraham, David, and several martyrs in addition to Jesus Christ. Beyond that he even uses a few women as examples. Rahab gets the most ink as a wonderful example of faith, two women killed by Nero are mentioned, Esther get a paragraph, as does Judith from the Apocrypha. But no Mary. First century writers seem to view Mary as a good believer, but nothing more, much like Protestants today.

Second century writers turn up the first exaltation references to Mary, but even these are over stated. Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Tertullian all try to draw Mary as the anti-type of Eve as Jesus was of Adam. This leads to some grandiose statements about Mary, but the ancient mind often thought more typologically and allegorically then we do today. These men did not have any allusions about Mary being above sin (original or actual). In fact Irenaeus condemns Mary as a sinner for her role in the Wedding of Cana arguing that Jesus rebukes her for her presumptuous pride. Tertullian along with other second century leaders like Origen and later writers like Basil the Great and Chrysostom (4th century) all ascribe to Mary the sins of maternal vanity, anxiety, and doubt and state that the ‘sword’ that pierces Mary’s soul in Luke 2:35 are these sins. Hardly a high view of Mary despite their typological attempts.

The rise of Mary really follows the rise of Monasticism and the encroachment of Neo-platonism into Christianity. The third and fourth centuries see apocryphal texts like the Gospel of the birth of Mary, which were all condemned by the church as a whole, but eventually the teachings of these books would be folded into the Mariology of the Roman church. The asceticism of the monastic orders arising from their neo-platonic view of the flesh exalted Mary as the ultimate example and claimed for her perpetual virginity. This helped give their life-style a bigger backing as well as giving them a patron saint.

The controversies of the 5th century about Christ led to Mary being the Mother of God as a test of orthodoxy. Mother of God was not meant to convey anything at all about Mary, but rather something about the natures of Jesus. However, it would come to be twisted to elevate Mary into something higher than merely human. The first person to actually advocate Mary did not have any actual or original sin was Pelegius, the free-will opponent of Augustine. During this time also one must remember that Rome was destroyed by the uneducated and pagan barbarians. As the centers of learning were destroyed the educated clergy could no longer restrain phrases like ‘Mother of God’ and Mariology became Marialotry took on a life of its own as the masses carried Mary to extremes she was never meant to reach. By the time of Gregory the Great, Bishop of Rome, Mary was installed in her current position for the Roman church. Gregory freely instructed his missionaries to the barbarians not to destroy pagan temples, but rename them and the statues in them. Many pagan temples were to women, and Mary worship was well on its way.

Thus, I do not think Protestantism needs a Mariology at all. Mary is a wonderful example of saintly piety and faith as are many people in the Bible. She should not be avoided for she is the mother of our Lord. But we must remember, as I believe the Reformed tradition does, she is simply one of his disciples no better than any other believer in Christ. This is, after all, exactly what our Lord teaches in Matthew 12:47-50.

‘Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.’



TOPICS: Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian
KEYWORDS: christ; mary; worship
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To: RnMomof7
I thought Catholics were not allowed their own PERSONAL interpretation of scripture ??

Whyever do you think that? As anyone who has read (and understood) the Catechism knows, Catholics are free to interpret Scripture for themselves, so long as they take care not to allow their interpretations to contradict what the Church has defined. The Church, for example, has never pronounced whether the Blessed Virgin actually died or not; so I'm free to adopt either view. I'm simply not free to assume anything which contradicts the Dogma of the Assumption (i.e. that her body did not corrupt, and that she is now in Heaven, body and soul). Does that clarify? Just as a piece of advice to "former Catholics" who haven't had any instruction in the Faith since the 1970's (and such "instruction" was bound to be a mess of corrupt personal opinions, detached from all true Catholic teaching--those who think otherwise really do need to take the blinders off, and re-examine what the 1970's actually did): please re-examine what the Church actually DID teach. Sister Tye-Dye, Fr. Burlap, Brother Birkenstock, Bishop Nuance, and the assorted volunteer lay people who taught in Catholic schools and CCD programs--and I hope this doesn't shock, too much--really might not have had a very good grasp on Catholic teaching. (Feel free to gasp, at this point.)

Because the idea that the woman in Rev was Mary is precisely that . John never called the woman Mary or Mamma ..He called her a SIGN

...and are you assuming that "sign" = "cannot also be real"? I've no idea why anyone would think that. Protestantism is rife with "either/or" thinking which simply has no basis in fact.

Rome has never given an INFALLIBLE interpretation of that scripture

Oh, mercy! THAT old canard, again? May I humbly suggest that you read the Catechism, and learn how infallibility really works? What you state here has about as much to do with the real charism of infallibility as Popeye's experiences on-screen have to do with the actual effects of spinach on the human body.

The one given by the US conference of Bishops does not agree with you ...How about that ??

You're quoting from the New American Bible, whose footnotes are abysmal and modernist (and are not at all protected by the charism of infallibility--honestly, could you just go and read up on this?); the same "notes" claim that the account of Pentecost from Acts 2 must have been "telescoped" from a span of many years, since "it wasn't safe for the Apostles to do such things". (*pfft!*) Believe me... if you'd like to point at the NAB notes and laugh (or retch), I'll be side-by-side with you!

Suffice it to say that this example proves nothing germane to your point.
241 posted on 03/24/2015 1:51:33 PM PDT by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
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To: paladinan; redleghunter
See my previous comment. Or are you suggesting that "the child who is to rule with an iron rod" is someone other than Jesus?

That Christ is the is the child who is to rule with an iron rod" is clear, but which does not make Mary to be the women, and the typology fits Israel. And he [Joseph] dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth? (Genesis 37:9,10) As said, the sun represented Jacob (Israel) and the moon Rachel, and the 12 stars on the woman’s head represents the 12 patriarchs, “and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.” (Rm. 9:5) And which was and will be persecuted, but God keeps her through it. And Israel is likened to being a women and mother:

For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewaileth herself, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers. (Jeremiah 4:31)

Now why dost thou cry out aloud? is there no king in thee? is thy counsellor perished? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail. Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the Lord shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies. (Micah 4:9-10)

I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate woman. (Jeremiah 6:2)

The women of Rv. 12 travailed (ōdinō: (cf. Gal. 4:19, 4:27) in birth and tormented (basanizō: cf. Mat. 8:6;Rev. 9:5; Rev. 20:10; Mat. 8:29; Mar. 5:7; Luk. 8:28; Mar. 6:48; Mat. 14:24; 2Pe. 2:8) to be delivered of her child, which was Christ, but which women cannot be the Mary of Rome, as it teaches that since she was sinless,

just as the rays of the sun penetrate without breaking or injuring in the least the solid substance of glass, so after a like but more exalted manner did Jesus Christ come forth from His mother's womb without injury to her maternal virginity...To Eve it was said: In sorrow shalt thou bring forth children. Mary was exempt from this law, for preserving her virginal integrity inviolate she brought forth Jesus the Son of God without experiencing, as we have already said, any sense of pain. - CATECHISM OF THE COUNCIL OF TRENT PART 1: THE CREED; Article III. http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/trent/tcreed03.htm

In the preface of the votive Mass in honor of Mary at the foot of the cross, we read the words: “She who had given Him birth without the pains of childbirth was to endure the greatest of pains in bringing forth to new life the family of the Church.” http://www.cst-phl.com/marian.html

“In conceiving you were all pure, in giving birth y ou were without pain.” (St. Augustine, Sermone de Nativitate )

Thus to take this as the women literally giving birth then you must contradict RC teaching that Mary had no anguish and pain of birth. In addition, no where is Mary said to uniquely be the mother of all Christians, but as said, Christ makes all such disciples

In addition, while the women can be seen to be Israel and thus consequently, the church, Rev. 7:4-8; cf. 14:1-4 also shows John's focus is on Israel, that of the remaining descendants of Abraham during the tribulation which turn to the Lord, whose coming the CCC teaches awaits his recognition by all Israel, whose acceptance means life from the dead, and that this full inclusion of the Jews will be in the wake of the full number of the Gentiles being saved.

Scripture clearly teaches that,

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. (Romans 11:25-27)

Thus Rev. 7:14 speaks of a remnant of these in the tribulation period, and to which other prophecies relate:

And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out. And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face. Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God. And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant: (Ezekiel 20:34-37)

And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I shall bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to your fathers. And there shall ye remember your ways, and all your doings, wherein ye have been defiled; and ye shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for all your evils that ye have committed. And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have wrought with you for my name's sake, not according to your wicked ways, nor according to your corrupt doings, O ye house of Israel, saith the Lord God. (Ezekiel 20:42-44)

The nations that persecute the remnant of Jews who turn to Christ are led by the devil, and which God protects by providing a place in the wilderness for 3.5 years, while in the end the Lord wuill destroy these persecuting peoples.

And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. (Zechariah 12:9-10)

the interpretation I gave (which makes perfect sense, given the context--i.e. the child is Jesus, and the mother is His mother) is true, along with other (more symbolic) meanings.

Which is contrary to that of your NAB Bible and The New Catholic Answer Bible commentary and other RC sources, so why believe you over them?

The woman adorned with the sun, the moon, and the stars (images taken from Genesis 37:9-10) symbolizes God's people in the Old and the New Testament. The Israel of old gave birth to the Messiah (Rev 12:5) and then became the new Israel, the church, which suffers persecution by the dragon (Rev 12:6, 13-17); cf Isaiah 50:1; 66:7; Jeremiah 50:12. This corresponds to a widespread myth throughout the ancient world that a goddess pregnant with a savior was pursued by a horrible monster; by miraculous intervention, she bore a son who then killed the monster. ; http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/. . P12V.HTM#$54O

Raymond Brown interprets Revelation 12 as, “The woman clothed with the sun, having the moon under her feet and on her head the crown of twelve stars, represents Israel, echoing the dream of Joseph in Gen. 37:9 where these symbols represent his father (Jacob/Israel), his mother, and his brothers (the sons of Jacob who were looked on as ancestors of the twelve tribes)” [Raymond E. Brown, An Introduction to the New Testament (New York: Doubleday, 1997), p.790].

Roman Catholic theologian Father Hubert J. Richards agrees that the Revelation 12 woman refers to Israel. In his book, “What The Spirit Says to the Churches: A Key to the Apocalypse of John,” (Nihil obstat and Imprimatur), Richards writes:

The vision proper, then, begins with the figure of a Woman clothed with the sun and the stars. We think naturally enough of our Lady, to whom this description has traditionally been applied. After all, we say, of whom else could John be thinking when he speaks of the mother of the Messiah? However it is clear from the rest of the chapter that this interpretation will stand only if the verse is isolated: what follows has very little relevance to our Lady. Nor is it any honor to Mary to apply any and every text to her without thought.

Who then is she? The source to which John has turned for his imagery throughout this book is the Old Testament. There, the Woman, the bride of God which brings forth the Messiah is Israel, the true Israel, the chosen people of God. It is quite certain that this is what is in John's mind when he begins his description with a quotation from Gen. 37:9-10 where the sun and the moon and the twelve stars represent the twelve-fold of Israel.

This Woman will later be contrasted with the Harlot (the collective personality of Rome, opposed to the true Israel) and will be specified at the end of the book, again appearing in the light and splendour for her marriage with the Lamb as the twelve-gated Jerusalem which forms the new Israel. In fact the number twelve occurs so frequently in the Apocalypse in reference to Israel that it cannot have a different meaning here. All the early fathers of the church interpreted these verses as about the Israel of God. - http://www.eternal-productions.org/PDFS/Revelation12Woman.pdf

..It is not until the fifth century (in Quodvultdeus) and the sixth century (in Oecumenius) that we find positive evidence for seeing, respectively, Mary as a secondary referent unintended by the author of the Revelation and Mary as the primary referent in the interpretation of this text. In any case, the Marian interpretation was never the majority opinion in the early church. The majority viewed the 'woman' as the people of God, both the ancient church and the New Covenant church." (Eric Svendsen, Who Is My Mother? [Amityville, New York: Calvary Press, 2001], pp. 231-232)

And where does Rome officially teach that is the only interpretation of that verse?

Why, exactly, would you care?

Why? Because whether you realize it or not, the veracity of doctrine for a RC does not rest upon the weight of Scriptural substantiation, lest they be as evangelicals, but its rests upon the premise of the ensured magisterial veracity of Rome. Thus the RC conclusion of what Scripture assuredly means is determined by what Rome says.

Thus when RCs attempt to substantiate their tradition with Scripture and are refuted, then their recourse is to assert that their church gave us the Bible, meaning it therefore knows what it means. RCs even teach that one cannot know for sure what Scripture consists of and means without an infallible interpreter.

Therefore the faithful RC is not to seek to ascertain the veracity of RC teaching by examination of evidences (for that reason). For to do so would be to doubt the claims of Rome to be the assuredly infallible magisterium by which a RC obtains assurance of Truth. And while they condescend to us in appealing to Scripture as if were their supreme authority, yet their ultimate goal is to be bring us to cease to ascertain the veracity of RC teaching by examination of Scripture, but to render implicit assent to Rome.

..having discovered the authority established by God, you must submit to it at once. There is no need of further search for the doctrines contained in the Christian Gospel, for the Church brings them all with her and will teach you them all. You have sought for the Teacher sent by God, and you have secured him; what need of further speculation?"

“All that we do [as must be patent enough now] is to submit our judgment and conform our beliefs to the authority Almighty God has set up on earth to teach us; this, and nothing else.” —“Henry G. Graham, "What Faith Really Means", (Nihil Obstat:C. SCHUT, S. T.D., Censor Deputatus, Imprimatur: EDM. CANONICUS SURMONT, D.D.,Vicarius Generalis. WESTMONASTERII, Die 30 Septembris, 1914 ); http://www.catholictradition.org/Tradition/faith2-10.htm]

"The intolerance of the Church toward error, the natural position of one who is the custodian of truth, her only reasonable attitude makes her forbid her children to read or to listen to heretical controversy, or to endeavor to discover religious truths by examining both sides of the question. This places the Catholic in a position whereby he must stand aloof from all manner of doctrinal teaching other than that delivered by his Church through her accredited ministers."

“The reason of this stand of his is that, for him, there can be no two sides to a question which for him is settled; for him, there is no seeking after the truth: he possesses it in its fulness, as far as God and religion are concerned. His Church gives him all there is to be had; all else is counterfeit... Holding to Catholic principles how can he do otherwise? How can he consistently seek after truth when he is convinced that he holds it? Who else can teach him religious truth when he believes that an infallible Church gives him God's word and interprets it in the true and only sense? (John H. Stapleton, Explanation of Catholic Morals, Chapters XIX, XXIII. the consistent believer (1904); Nihil Obstat. Remy Lafort, Censor Librorum. Imprimatur, John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York ; http://www.gutenberg.org/files/18438/18438-h/18438-h.htm)

Thus i can spend weeks exposing the errors of Rome via Scripture, but since that is not the basis for the veracity of their doctrine, any more than it is for cultists, then they can just dismiss it.

Therefore unless your interpretation is official doctrine, then it is only an interpretation that you cannot be sure is the right one as a RC. And as your interpretation of Scripture fails to warrant your conclusions, then i also must submit to Rome in order to believe it.

However, if you want to allow establishing the veracity of RC teaching based upon the weight of Scriptural evidence, then you must do so with all her traditions, beginning with the claim of perpetual ensured magisterial veracity, since my assent to that much be your ultimate goal.

But as to your question: "Rome" does not subscribe to the "either/or" mentality which permeates much of Evangelical Fundamentalism;

Actually Rome holds to "sola ecclesia," or more precisely, "sola Roma," as ultimately Scripture etc. only consists of and means what she says it does.

And where does this interpretation enjoy the unanimous consent of the fathers?

That would be wonderful, granted (there is no unanimity, on this point)... but since when is that any sort of absolute requirement? And why would you (a Protestant) care, even if they did?

Because you are a RC, whose basis for Truth is Rome, and (as Scripture fails to actually provide what they want) which invokes church “fathers” for support, as do RCs, as if they were actually unanimous, and the bishop's creed of V1 states,

Likewise I accept sacred scripture according to that sense which holy mother church held and holds, since it is her right to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the holy scriptures; nor will I ever receive and interpret them except according to the unanimous consent of the fathers. (http://mb-soft.com/believe/txs/firstvc.htm)

But the term itself of “unanimous consent of the fathers is misleading.

The Fathers are unanimous in many things which Protestants reject (e.g. the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, the perpetual virginity and sinlessness of Mary, etc.)

That also is misleading, as has been shown here, while even the term “Real Presence” apparently came from the Anglicans to describe its different concept.

so I'm not sure why you're offering this; it seems to smell of "red herring".

Because again, while these pious ancients are not determinative of doctrine for me, as a RC instead your conclusion of what Scripture means must be determined by what Rome says, and thus your basis for Truth must be consistent with her, who invokes the church “fathers” etc.. However, ultimately the evidence only assuredly means what she says it does.

As Manning's classic quote states:

It was the charge of the Reformers that the Catholic doctrines were not primitive, and their pretension was to revert to antiquity. But the appeal to antiquity is both a treason and a heresy. It is a treason because it rejects the Divine voice of the Church at this hour, and a heresy because it denies that voice to be Divine.... I may say in strict truth that the Church has no antiquity. It rests upon its own supernatural and perpetual consciousness...The only Divine evidence to us of what was primitive is the witness and voice of the Church at this hour. — Most Rev. Dr. Henry Edward Cardinal Manning, “The Temporal Mission of the Holy Ghost: Or Reason and Revelation”

As Keating asserts,

And thus as Keating asserts, The mere fact that the Church teaches the doctrine of the Assumption as definitely true is a guarantee that it is true. ” — Karl Keating, Catholicism and Fundamentalism (San Francisco: Ignatius, 1988), p. 275.[http://www.catholic.com/tracts/immaculate-conception-and-assumption]

242 posted on 03/24/2015 1:57:39 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Iscool
>>Those Catholic apologists are certainly ‘long’ on speech and very short on substance...<<

You noticed that too ey? It often amazes me how they can get off the main topic thinking somehow that is going to sway our beliefs.

243 posted on 03/24/2015 2:01:52 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: Mrs. Don-o; DungeonMaster
>>Let me put it this way: Scripture doesn't teach that a person loses the ability to intercede, or ceases to be a member of the Communion of Saints once they enter heaven!<<

Well then you go right ahead and make up whatever suits your needs! You still have the pesky "John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

244 posted on 03/24/2015 2:09:58 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: All

Sorry, everyone... I need to call it a day, for today. More later, as time allows.

To my anti-Catholic-Church friends: don’t break your arms patting yourselves and each other on the back, while I’m gone. Word to the wise. :)


245 posted on 03/24/2015 2:10:58 PM PDT by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
If you wish to use words accurately, then, please refrain from using the words "worship," "adore," and words related to "latria" (such as "idolatry").

It is you who are not using the word idolatry accurately, as you render it to exclude what i said, "kneeling before a statue and praising the entity it represented in the unseen world with adulation, attributes, glory and titles never given in Scripture to created beings, including having the uniquely Divine power glory to hear and respond to virtually infinite numbers of prayers addressed to them, and beseeching such for Heavenly help, and making offerings to them" as constituting idolatry in Scripture. Which does not use a special word for worship of God, but describes what idolatry is.

Let me address the question of bowing and kneeling, because if I am understanding you correctly, you are saying that those are gestures of latria,, not, properly speaking, dulia.

Wrong. I used a collective description, which only describes that which is engaged when worshiping, as of God, never mere veneration. I know simply bowing and kneeling can be done towards humans, and can even provide more examples than you did. Thus those are irrelevant here.

But when you find believers kneeling before a statue and praising the entity it represented in the unseen world with adulation, attributes, glory and titles never given in Scripture to created beings, including having the uniquely Divine power glory to hear and respond to virtually infinite numbers of prayers addressed to them, and beseeching such for Heavenly help, and making offerings to them," which is done by Caths, then get back to us.

Now here’s an interesting episode: 1 Kings 2:19 When Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, the king stood up to meet her, bowed down to her and sat down on his throne. He had a throne brought for the king’s mother, and she sat down at his right hand.

Which is a negative example, for the request resulted in the death of the supplicant, (v. 23-25) thus reliance upon such is something to be avoided, based upon that outcome!

246 posted on 03/24/2015 2:11:38 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: paladinan
See my previous comment, re: the original (and core) meaning of the word "pray" (i.e. "to ask"); the modern restriction of "pray" to "God alone" is a Protestant innovation, and it's--with all due respect--a thoughtless and self-serving one.

Mat_5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

προσεύχομαι
proseuchomai
pros-yoo'-khom-ahee
From G4314 and G2172; to pray to God, that is, supplicate, worship: - pray (X earnestly, for), make prayer

Do you make this stuff up as you go along or are you just repeating what your religion tells you to say???

247 posted on 03/24/2015 2:12:11 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Elsie
Well... Leviticus 15:16 'Now if a man has a seminal emission, he shall bathe all his body in water and be unclean until evening.

Which means everyone knew what happened last night.

However,

Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge. (Hebrews 13:4)

And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common [profane]. (Acts 10:15)

248 posted on 03/24/2015 2:13:49 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: verga
As I have told you before, thee are only two non-Catholics on these threads that are actually Christians so prot opinions are worth what we pay for them.

And you are assuming you could recognize a Christian if you saw one...

249 posted on 03/24/2015 2:21:44 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: GeronL
This intercession stuff is ridiculous, Jesus does not need the help of mortals - especially dead ones

It is beyond ridiculous...

250 posted on 03/24/2015 2:25:23 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Mrs. Don-o
We must, in fact, depend upon Paul's teaching about the Body of Christ as the one meaning-controlling context which defines the whole process of intercessory prayer. Once you have that firmly in mind, the rest follows automatically.

Why all of a sudden is that true??? That would be sola scripture...You guys don't depend on much of any scripture for truth...You pick and chose which scriptures you want to believe...Why this one???

251 posted on 03/24/2015 2:31:28 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: moonhawk; Old Yeller
And as a former ex-Catholic, I am praying for your return.

And just what is it that ex-Catholics need to return to? When I was a Roman Catholic, I didn't KNOW Jesus Christ as my Savior and Lord. I didn't KNOW that I have eternal life through faith in Him - that all those who come to Him in faith are His sheep and we shall NEVER perish nor be plucked from His hands (John 10:27-30). I didn't KNOW that I could live in freedom from sin and its control over everything in my life. I didn't KNOW that it is by the grace of God THROUGH faith and not by my works of righteousness that I was saved. I didn't KNOW that the Holy Spirit indwells ALL those who are born again through faith and that He will never leave or forsake us. I didn't KNOW that I walk by faith and not by sight and the GOSPEL is the power of God unto salvation to all those who believe.

I DO know those things now. So, what exactly does going back to the Roman Catholic church do for me that Jesus has not already done? Does returning mean I must just accept all the dogmas and doctrines devised by men in that church over the centuries that have no basis in God's word? Will I find rest for my soul that is better than the rest I ALREADY know? Will I have any greater assurance of my salvation than that I have now or will that be something I have to give up since Catholics tell me such assurance is a "sin of presumption"? Sorry, I don't see any reason why anyone would want to return to such uncertainty - especially not when some of the FRoman Catholic representatives that show up on these threads exhibit such visceral hatred and contempt for others who won't, and don't, buy into their religious beliefs. We are supposed to speak the truth in love, gentleness and respect. THAT will be how other know we are Christ's disciples.

I will not be returning seeing as it was God who led me out and into the light of the glorious gospel.

252 posted on 03/24/2015 2:40:14 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: RnMomof7

“The Bible ALONE is the SOLE or ULTIMATE rule of faith” isn’t in the Bible.

So you should reject it Luther’s human tradition.

But you don’t.

“If he won’t listen to the church, treat him as a pagan or tax collector.” —Jesus, in the Bible

Go ahead and rationalize it.


253 posted on 03/24/2015 2:45:06 PM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas ( Isaiah 22:22, Matthew 16:19, Revelation 3:7)
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To: RnMomof7

.
It never was about “Mary,” its about Ishtar/Easter, the ‘goddess’ of intercourse and fornication.

That is the demon that answers prayers to ‘Mary.’

.


254 posted on 03/24/2015 2:46:16 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: ctdonath2; jobim; EagleOne; RnMomof7; moonhawk
Because it was fallen individuals who, as the lead post notes, began to deify her starting a couple hundred years after her death and over the centuries got worked into a frenzy until someone said “hey, wait, the whole point was that she’s a fallen sinner just like the rest of us, and blessed & humbled that God would choose her”.

No one has deified Mary. She is the Mother of God and, as such, has always been held in very high esteem. Without her "yes", you would not have a Savior.

As for the absurd notion that Mariology emerged from monasticism, the earliest image of Mary is a fresco dated about 150 AD in the Catacomb of Priscilla on the Via Salaria in Rome that shows her nursing the infant Jesus on her lap.

Situated in what was a quarry in Roman times, the Catacombs of Priscilla were used for underground Christian burials from the late second century through the fourth century. And for those who have lost touch with history, christianity in Rome was practiced underground until the Emperor Constantine, by means of the Edict of Milan (313), set forth toleration of all religions, including Christianity, which ended the persecution of christians.

255 posted on 03/24/2015 2:48:07 PM PDT by NYer (Without justice - what else is the State but a great band of robbers? - St. Augustine)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas

.
Yeshua was speaking of the “congregation,” not any human corporation. He totally rejected such associations.

Yeshua had no part with any “church.”
.


256 posted on 03/24/2015 2:49:25 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: Mrs. Don-o; DungeonMaster
The burden of proof is on you, to prove that a saint in heaven supposedly is dis-membered from the Body of Christ.

Naw...No different that communication in 1740...If you lived in Virgina and wanted to have a Christian brethren in Connecticut pray for you, it wasn't going to happen...

Unless those saints in heaven have I-phones, there won't be any communication...

257 posted on 03/24/2015 2:49:31 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: CynicalBear; verga
That’s your response to scripture?

You may first have to explain what scripture is...

258 posted on 03/24/2015 2:50:41 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: NYer

.
>> “No one has deified Mary. She is the Mother of God...” <<

.
What an absurd contradiction in a single sentence!

Since Yehova has no mother it is also a cosmic canard on its face.

.


259 posted on 03/24/2015 2:53:26 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: paladinan
“Mary, for example, doesn’t need to handle “millions of prayers per second” (those are scare quotes, not direct quotes, BTW); she has all eternity in which to respond to them.”

The opinion of anyone who posts this nonsense will not be debated.

260 posted on 03/24/2015 3:02:16 PM PDT by ealgeone
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