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Rejecting Mariology
Two-Edged Sword ^ | February 05, 2007 | Lee

Posted on 03/23/2015 2:14:57 PM PDT by RnMomof7

It is often claimed the Mary was heralded by the Patristics as a woman full of grace, perhaps sinless, and deserving our veneration above other departed saints as the Mother of the Church. This is not the case. While I do freely admit that the word Patristic can be used to cover a variety of ages, I prefer to use it to the pre-nicaean leaders of the church. Let us start with them, and we can move on from there.

In the Apostolic Fathers, as the first century leaders are often called, one sees little to no mention of Mary at all. Clement of Rome leaves her out of his epistle completely. This is a glaring omission for ‘Mary full of grace’ since Clement’s entire letter is about submission, faith, and peace. Clement uses as examples of Christian living Paul, Peter, Moses, Abraham, David, and several martyrs in addition to Jesus Christ. Beyond that he even uses a few women as examples. Rahab gets the most ink as a wonderful example of faith, two women killed by Nero are mentioned, Esther get a paragraph, as does Judith from the Apocrypha. But no Mary. First century writers seem to view Mary as a good believer, but nothing more, much like Protestants today.

Second century writers turn up the first exaltation references to Mary, but even these are over stated. Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Tertullian all try to draw Mary as the anti-type of Eve as Jesus was of Adam. This leads to some grandiose statements about Mary, but the ancient mind often thought more typologically and allegorically then we do today. These men did not have any allusions about Mary being above sin (original or actual). In fact Irenaeus condemns Mary as a sinner for her role in the Wedding of Cana arguing that Jesus rebukes her for her presumptuous pride. Tertullian along with other second century leaders like Origen and later writers like Basil the Great and Chrysostom (4th century) all ascribe to Mary the sins of maternal vanity, anxiety, and doubt and state that the ‘sword’ that pierces Mary’s soul in Luke 2:35 are these sins. Hardly a high view of Mary despite their typological attempts.

The rise of Mary really follows the rise of Monasticism and the encroachment of Neo-platonism into Christianity. The third and fourth centuries see apocryphal texts like the Gospel of the birth of Mary, which were all condemned by the church as a whole, but eventually the teachings of these books would be folded into the Mariology of the Roman church. The asceticism of the monastic orders arising from their neo-platonic view of the flesh exalted Mary as the ultimate example and claimed for her perpetual virginity. This helped give their life-style a bigger backing as well as giving them a patron saint.

The controversies of the 5th century about Christ led to Mary being the Mother of God as a test of orthodoxy. Mother of God was not meant to convey anything at all about Mary, but rather something about the natures of Jesus. However, it would come to be twisted to elevate Mary into something higher than merely human. The first person to actually advocate Mary did not have any actual or original sin was Pelegius, the free-will opponent of Augustine. During this time also one must remember that Rome was destroyed by the uneducated and pagan barbarians. As the centers of learning were destroyed the educated clergy could no longer restrain phrases like ‘Mother of God’ and Mariology became Marialotry took on a life of its own as the masses carried Mary to extremes she was never meant to reach. By the time of Gregory the Great, Bishop of Rome, Mary was installed in her current position for the Roman church. Gregory freely instructed his missionaries to the barbarians not to destroy pagan temples, but rename them and the statues in them. Many pagan temples were to women, and Mary worship was well on its way.

Thus, I do not think Protestantism needs a Mariology at all. Mary is a wonderful example of saintly piety and faith as are many people in the Bible. She should not be avoided for she is the mother of our Lord. But we must remember, as I believe the Reformed tradition does, she is simply one of his disciples no better than any other believer in Christ. This is, after all, exactly what our Lord teaches in Matthew 12:47-50.

‘Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.’



TOPICS: Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian
KEYWORDS: christ; mary; worship
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To: ealgeone

As I have told you before, thee are only two non-Catholics on these threads that are actually Christians so prot opinions are worth what we pay for them.


201 posted on 03/24/2015 9:56:18 AM PDT by verga (I might as well be playing chess with pigeons,.)
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To: CynicalBear

As I have told you before, thee are only two non-Catholics on these threads that are actually Christians so prot opinions are worth what we pay for them.


202 posted on 03/24/2015 9:56:57 AM PDT by verga (I might as well be playing chess with pigeons,.)
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To: verga; CynicalBear

I sure hope you’re not an attorney.


203 posted on 03/24/2015 10:00:40 AM PDT by ealgeone
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To: verga

“As I have told you before, the(r)e are only two non-Catholics on these threads that are actually Christians” I’m curious as to how you KNOW this?


204 posted on 03/24/2015 10:01:34 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Is it really all relative, Mister Einstein?)
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To: RnMomof7

She is a super-hero who will single-handedly save the world, and how dare you claim they aren’t Biblical


205 posted on 03/24/2015 10:02:45 AM PDT by GeronL
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To: paladinan; Elsie
Those who type such foul and perverse things about the Mother of Jesus say far more about themselves than they ever say about Mary.

You mean like this??

Bernadine: …all gifts, all virtues, and all graces are dispensed by the hands of Mary to whomsoever, when, and as she pleases. O Lady, since thou art the dispenser of all graces, and since the grace of salvation can ONLY come through thy hands, OUR SALVATION DEPENDS ON THEE.

206 posted on 03/24/2015 10:04:28 AM PDT by ealgeone
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To: MHGinTN

By paying attention to the comments made and not made on these threads.


207 posted on 03/24/2015 10:16:06 AM PDT by verga (I might as well be playing chess with pigeons,.)
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To: MHGinTN; verga

There are some posters who are in denial of reality when it confronts them.


208 posted on 03/24/2015 10:34:32 AM PDT by ealgeone
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To: paladinan

“Do you see my point?”

Your point seems to be that you don’t understand the difference in context between the two sentences. In the one you quote, the word “death” creates an absolute impediment to the natural reading, forcing an alternative reading. However, absent that modifier, the natural reading is always preferred. For example, let’s change that reference to anything other than “death” and see how it reads:

“And Michal the daughter of Saul had no child till the day of her wedding.”

“And Michal the daughter of Saul had no child till the next month.”

“And Michal the daughter of Saul had no child till the harvest.”

Obviously, only the special case of death, which prevents the most natural reading, is changing the meaning of the phrase. I’ll offer a further example of how this is the only reasonable way to read such a phrase. Imagine I walk in to a police station and say to the desk sergeant:

“I didn’t kill my wife till I caught her with another man.”

Do you think the officer would not naturally believe that I had just confessed to murder?


209 posted on 03/24/2015 10:37:23 AM PDT by Boogieman
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To: ealgeone

Sometimes, these threads offer up interesting irrationalities ...


210 posted on 03/24/2015 10:42:43 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Is it really all relative, Mister Einstein?)
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To: verga

“And Catholic Still don’t Worship Mary, That is reserved for God ALONE. Repeating a falsity will NEVER make it true.”

Well, no. As we have repeatedly seen, if you repeat it long enough it becomes tradition, at which point its authority is on par with scripture.


211 posted on 03/24/2015 11:19:12 AM PDT by sparklite2
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To: RnMomof7
I think it is helpful to explain the reasons why many Christians do not believe the same things about Mary as Roman Catholics and others do. It should be respected and not taken as an insult to or degradation of her as so often is claimed on these threads. I personally think Rome made a huge blunder in permitting and encouraging the unscriptural adoration of this humble woman and the “going beyond what is written” to establishing the dogmas about her which has led to her exaltation and the diminishing of Jesus Christ. I can't see how this was anything that Almighty God wanted to happen.
212 posted on 03/24/2015 11:22:50 AM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: ealgeone

I was not making any argument, so I have nothing to lose. I was merely describing a group of FReepers.

Ted Cruz has received a donation from me as well. I don’t care about his brand of Christianity. He doesn’t pick fights with other believers. He understands the real enemy.


213 posted on 03/24/2015 11:25:29 AM PDT by goodwithagun (My gun has killed fewer people than Ted Kennedy's car.)
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To: paladinan; metmom

“In short: given that the woman obviously gave birth to Jesus, and since Revelation does NOT clearly identify the woman with anyone else, it simply makes sense to go with the plain meaning of Scripture—i.e. that this is Mary, in Revelation 11:19-12:17.”

Incorrect. The woman is a symbol in a prophecy, so there is no “plain meaning” there. We have a clear example, in the very same book, of a woman being used as a symbol in prophecy: the harlot, called “Babylon the Great”. In that case, Revelation interprets itself and tells us explicitly that the woman symbolizes a city, not an individual person.

So, you cannot assume that a “woman” in a prophetic vision is a human female individual, any more than you can assume that a dragon in a prophecy is a real dragon, or a lion in a prophecy is a real lion. Clearly, if you try to read the entire prophecy literally as you read “the woman” literally, it quickly devolves into nonsense.


214 posted on 03/24/2015 11:36:45 AM PDT by Boogieman
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To: ealgeone; paladinan

Truly it is comical, for paladinan insists that we read that “the woman” as the literal mother of Christ, which would mean, if we were being consistent, she would also have to be the literal mother of all believers. Far from remaining a virgin, under that interpretation, Mary would have to be quite the prolific breeder.


215 posted on 03/24/2015 11:40:10 AM PDT by Boogieman
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To: Boogieman; paladinan
If you want to make the argument that the woman is a symbol for Mary, then you are going to have to be consistent about it. Demonstrate how the symbol represents Mary instead of other candidates, and then demonstrate how you can interpret the entire vision in the context of that symbol meaning Mary without creating contradictions and inconsistencies. Such an exercise can only serve to underline the flaw in trying to identify Mary with “the woman”.

Excellent points! I find it curious how many will insist that passage is speaking specifically of Mary yet will deny that she "cried out in pain as she was about to give birth." (Rev. 12:2). It was because of Eve's sin that God decreed of women “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children." (Gen. 3:16). Some theologians have even declared Mary did not have a normal painful delivery -going so far as to say she remained a physical virgin (which would have been physically impossible).

I agree with your points that there is a blatant inconsistency in asserting Revelation 12's "woman" is Mary. If people are being honest, they will have to admit this as well.

216 posted on 03/24/2015 12:00:34 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
I could pray to YOU, iscool, to intercede for me for salvation and grace, help and healing. Intercession is all that’s implied, and intercession is not a function of personal sovereignty.

Mrs. Don-o...We have all posted far to many times prayers to Mary from Catholic sites where the prayers to Mary are NOT for intercession, but for the divine services that only God can provide...

We have posted what John Paul 11 prayed to Mary, that she saved his life, that he gives his entire life to Mary...

The only thing that seems to be implied is, for example, when you pray to one of your saints to find your car keys is that the presumed connection between the saint and Jesus automatically gives that saint Godly attributes...

217 posted on 03/24/2015 12:10:44 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Iscool

This intercession stuff is ridiculous, Jesus does not need the help of mortals - especially dead ones


218 posted on 03/24/2015 12:12:18 PM PDT by GeronL
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To: paladinan
For example (and this is especially pertinent, when dealing with Christian sensibilities): the word "pray" originally meant "to ask"; e.g. "I pray thee, tell me what you mean?", meaning, "I ask you, tell me what you mean." Nowadays, the word has "morphed" into a limited use in which (especially in Protestant circles) it's used for God alone... and that was never its intended purpose.

Not true at all...Pray thee and pray to have always had different definitions...And still do...The dishonestly of many Catholics constantly muddles that difference when confronted with praying TO your saints and Mary...

Pray to has always meant worship while pray thee has always been a a request...And still does...

219 posted on 03/24/2015 12:17:19 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: paladinan
One of the more baffling prejudices I've found in some Evangelical Protestants (especially those of the anti-Catholic-Church type) is the idea that God somehow does not WANT anyone but Himself involved in the business of handling the needs of the faithful.

I find it baffling that you guys love to add things to scripture that do not exist...

So God divvies out his divine attributes amongst his saints and Jesus' mother...They chose who gets what and God does what??? How many saints do they have you guys praying to now??? They add more every day...

And how do you know God does this...Did he leave word in his Holy Scripture??? NOPE...Not a single word...In fact, Jesus contradicts any such nonsense...

How do you know any of these saints are actually in heaven and not hell??? YOU DON'T...

220 posted on 03/24/2015 12:30:38 PM PDT by Iscool
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