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Rejecting Mariology
Two-Edged Sword ^ | February 05, 2007 | Lee

Posted on 03/23/2015 2:14:57 PM PDT by RnMomof7

It is often claimed the Mary was heralded by the Patristics as a woman full of grace, perhaps sinless, and deserving our veneration above other departed saints as the Mother of the Church. This is not the case. While I do freely admit that the word Patristic can be used to cover a variety of ages, I prefer to use it to the pre-nicaean leaders of the church. Let us start with them, and we can move on from there.

In the Apostolic Fathers, as the first century leaders are often called, one sees little to no mention of Mary at all. Clement of Rome leaves her out of his epistle completely. This is a glaring omission for ‘Mary full of grace’ since Clement’s entire letter is about submission, faith, and peace. Clement uses as examples of Christian living Paul, Peter, Moses, Abraham, David, and several martyrs in addition to Jesus Christ. Beyond that he even uses a few women as examples. Rahab gets the most ink as a wonderful example of faith, two women killed by Nero are mentioned, Esther get a paragraph, as does Judith from the Apocrypha. But no Mary. First century writers seem to view Mary as a good believer, but nothing more, much like Protestants today.

Second century writers turn up the first exaltation references to Mary, but even these are over stated. Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Tertullian all try to draw Mary as the anti-type of Eve as Jesus was of Adam. This leads to some grandiose statements about Mary, but the ancient mind often thought more typologically and allegorically then we do today. These men did not have any allusions about Mary being above sin (original or actual). In fact Irenaeus condemns Mary as a sinner for her role in the Wedding of Cana arguing that Jesus rebukes her for her presumptuous pride. Tertullian along with other second century leaders like Origen and later writers like Basil the Great and Chrysostom (4th century) all ascribe to Mary the sins of maternal vanity, anxiety, and doubt and state that the ‘sword’ that pierces Mary’s soul in Luke 2:35 are these sins. Hardly a high view of Mary despite their typological attempts.

The rise of Mary really follows the rise of Monasticism and the encroachment of Neo-platonism into Christianity. The third and fourth centuries see apocryphal texts like the Gospel of the birth of Mary, which were all condemned by the church as a whole, but eventually the teachings of these books would be folded into the Mariology of the Roman church. The asceticism of the monastic orders arising from their neo-platonic view of the flesh exalted Mary as the ultimate example and claimed for her perpetual virginity. This helped give their life-style a bigger backing as well as giving them a patron saint.

The controversies of the 5th century about Christ led to Mary being the Mother of God as a test of orthodoxy. Mother of God was not meant to convey anything at all about Mary, but rather something about the natures of Jesus. However, it would come to be twisted to elevate Mary into something higher than merely human. The first person to actually advocate Mary did not have any actual or original sin was Pelegius, the free-will opponent of Augustine. During this time also one must remember that Rome was destroyed by the uneducated and pagan barbarians. As the centers of learning were destroyed the educated clergy could no longer restrain phrases like ‘Mother of God’ and Mariology became Marialotry took on a life of its own as the masses carried Mary to extremes she was never meant to reach. By the time of Gregory the Great, Bishop of Rome, Mary was installed in her current position for the Roman church. Gregory freely instructed his missionaries to the barbarians not to destroy pagan temples, but rename them and the statues in them. Many pagan temples were to women, and Mary worship was well on its way.

Thus, I do not think Protestantism needs a Mariology at all. Mary is a wonderful example of saintly piety and faith as are many people in the Bible. She should not be avoided for she is the mother of our Lord. But we must remember, as I believe the Reformed tradition does, she is simply one of his disciples no better than any other believer in Christ. This is, after all, exactly what our Lord teaches in Matthew 12:47-50.

‘Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.’



TOPICS: Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian
KEYWORDS: christ; mary; worship
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To: CynicalBear
Worship belongs to God alone.

In the modern sense of "latria", yes. In the ancient, original sense of the word ("paying honor to that which is worthy"), no. Words mean things; and the modern meaning is not always the original meaning, or even the best meaning. I suspect that people, dwelling on the idea that "Only God is worthy" (without finishing the sentence--a nasty habit of modern people), gradually excluded everything but God from that word's usage. Their hearts were most probably in the right place... but their English skills were getting muddled, and they succeeded in neutralizing a perfectly good word of its original meaning, to the point where no one can use it in the original sense without a tiresome list of qualifiers.

(Read "Mere Christianity" for more detail on that phenomenon; C.S. Lewis laments the destruction of the word "gentleman", in that same manner.)

For example (and this is especially pertinent, when dealing with Christian sensibilities): the word "pray" originally meant "to ask"; e.g. "I pray thee, tell me what you mean?", meaning, "I ask you, tell me what you mean." Nowadays, the word has "morphed" into a limited use in which (especially in Protestant circles) it's used for God alone... and that was never its intended purpose.

Adoration belongs to God alone. We are quite free to "worship" (in the old sense of venerating, or paying honor) that which is worthy.
121 posted on 03/24/2015 5:34:25 AM PDT by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
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To: jayker

Renaming Mary does nothing to correct erroneous teaching about Jesus.

It only leads to further confusion and error.

The phrase/ title “Mother of God” appears nowhere in Scripture. The Holy Spirit saw fit to inspire the writers of the NT Scripture to identify her as “mother of Jesus”.


122 posted on 03/24/2015 5:37:21 AM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: sparklite2
Isn’t the title of Queen of the Universe deification?

It would seem so. Or how about having more titles and names than God?

123 posted on 03/24/2015 5:41:48 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (No one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.)
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To: jobim
she has demonstrated it for 2000 years.

She has? You mean as a statue?

124 posted on 03/24/2015 5:42:37 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (No one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.)
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To: paladinan
And the dragon stood before the woman

The woman Israel.

125 posted on 03/24/2015 5:43:51 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (No one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.)
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To: Boogieman
Ha! So your concept of heaven is one where Mary is just eternally working her way through an “inbox” that is overflowing, with requests that God (being actually omniscient and omnipotent) could just take care of with no effort at all. I think that is even sillier.

I'm not surprised that anyone would find their own silly straw man to be silly, since it's designed to be silly.

There's no reason at all to cast the situation in such a crass, sneering light. (One might as easily denigrate motherhood by portraying it as "an endless stream of dirty diapers"... which insinuates that there is nothing WITHIN or BEYOND that mundane chore, and such a comment says far more about the commenter than about the thing about which the comments were made.)

Anyway, you didn’t actually address my point, since my point was about omniscience, not omnipotence. In order to hear prayers from all over the world, especially silent prayers that are made inside a person’s head, requires omniscience, which is one of the attributes of a deity.

...and I suppose Acts 5:1-11 (St. Peter vs. Ananias and Sapphira) required that St. Peter be omniscient, since he knew that the two of them had lied about their property? If we're willing to admit that God enlightens those whom He wills in that case, why is it such a stretch that He could enlighten the Communion of Saints in Heaven to whatever prayers He wishes them to know?

Saying that there is no time in heaven doesn’t address that difficulty with the Catholic position.

It wasn't meant to do so. One of the more baffling prejudices I've found in some Evangelical Protestants (especially those of the anti-Catholic-Church type) is the idea that God somehow does not WANT anyone but Himself involved in the business of handling the needs of the faithful. You say that "God (being actually omniscient and omnipotent) could just take care of with no effort at all"; and that is certainly true; but isn't that also true of every need which exists? Why pray for ANYONE else, EVER, since God both knows the needs before we ask, and God has the power to deal with them with no effort? And yet, God plainly wants us to pray for one another... mainly because our two purposes for EXISTENCE are: (1) to be united to God, and (2) to be united to each other in the Communion of Saints. (Think of the two greatest commandments: love God, and love neighbor... and then ponder why these are commandments AT ALL. They exist to direct people toward that two-fold union.) The idea that God would somehow be passionately desirous of our prayers for each other while on earth, but would (for whatever reason) absolutely prohibit any such prayer by the Saints IN Heaven for those still on earth, is absurd.
126 posted on 03/24/2015 5:49:14 AM PDT by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
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To: paladinan
If someone had said "GODDESS of the Universe", then you'd have a clear-cut case.

Are you saying that it is impossible to worship something without calling it God or without using the word worship?

127 posted on 03/24/2015 5:50:07 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (No one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.)
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To: RaceBannon
no, Mary gave birth to several children according to the Bible

The Bible says nothing of the sort, and suggestions to the contrary are mere Protestant "projection" (a.k.a. "eisegesis"). See below.

Mt 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS. Firstborn, meaning more than one.

Nonsense. "Firstborn" is true of any oldest child of a mother; even an only child is "firstborn"; the term used in the Bible refers to "the child which opens the womb". Have some sense, here: the Law required that every firstborn male be consecrated to the Lord (cf. Luke 2:23, etc.) on the fortieth day after birth... but would anyone seriously suggest that the woman would have to have another child in the interim (that would be an impressively brief gestation period!), so that the original child could properly be called "firstborn"? No... the first child is the first child, even if no others come afterward, and even if the mother dies in childbirth.

Mt 12:46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, [his] mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.

"Brethren" (Gk: "adelphos") was a rendering of the Aramaic word for "kin"--which could mean anything from "blood-sibling" (cf. Matthew 4:21, etc.) to "fellow Israelite" (cf. Phillipians 4:8, etc.) No one can simply (and carelessly) "run away" with the English word "brother", and immediately conclude, "Ah! Blood siblings, and fellow biological children of Mary!" Ditto, for Matthew 12.

Here, Jesus rebuked the crowd,

That's a mere projection; there's no reason at all to consider this a "rebuke". It's a clarification, and a teaching, certainly... but there's no reason to suppose that Jesus was being severe, here.

plainly saying that even though his siblings were present,

The word "siblings" is nowhere in the text.

that those who believed on Him were brothers, also, not just blood relations

There's no difficulty with "blood relations" (since cousins would be that); but you're arguing that Mary had other children... and there's no proof in the text for that idea, at all.

The Apostle James is called the Lord’s Brother, family, blood brother

The Apostle James (the less--as opposed to James, the son of Zebedee, who was already martyred by the time the events in Galatians 2, etc., were recounted) was the son of Mary, mother of this James and of Joses (cf. Matthew 27:56)... not the Blessed Virgin Mary. It's another Mary altogether, albeit apparently a blood relative.
128 posted on 03/24/2015 6:12:13 AM PDT by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
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To: all the best
Calling Mary “Mother of God” is deification and blasphemy.

Utter nonsense.

I know nothing about you or your mother. But I do know that she preceded you. A mother always come before her children.

Almost always. Unless you want to deny the true incarnation of Jesus Christ, completely, you'll have to admit that He had a mother (as Scripture made plain--see John 2:1, etc.).

You need to make a choice: since Mary is the mother of Jesus, and Jesus is truly God, then either Mary is the mother of God, or else either Jesus was not fully human (which is the heresy of Apollinarianism), or He was not fully divine (which is the heresy of Arianism).

Mary is most definitely not the mother of God. She is mother of the man Jesus. God Jesus preceded her by an eternity.

Are you rejecting the idea that the man Jesus was God? Are you suggesting that Jesus the man and God the Son are two entirely different people? Those ideas would lay waste to the atomement of Christ... since only a man could die for our sins, and only God could pay the infinite price which our sins against God demanded.
129 posted on 03/24/2015 6:19:18 AM PDT by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
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To: MHGinTN
>>You have proof of her death?<<

Oh please. How long will Catholics deny the statements from the MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS of Pope Pius XII which they believe to be infallible?

In the same way, it was not difficult for them to admit that the great Mother of God, like her only begotten Son, had actually passed from this life. But this in no way prevented them from believing and from professing openly that her sacred body had never been subject to the corruption of the tomb, and that the august tabernacle of the Divine Word had never been reduced to dust and ashes. [MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS Pope Pius XII 14]

"Venerable to us, O Lord, is the festivity of this day on which the holy Mother of God suffered temporal death, but still could not be kept down by the bonds of death, who has begotten your Son our Lord incarnate from herself." [MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS Pope Pius XII 17]

As he kept you a virgin in childbirth, thus he has kept your body incorrupt in the tomb and has glorified it by his divine act of transferring it from the tomb. [MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS Pope Pius XII 18]

And, when our predecessor St. Sergius I prescribed what is known as the litany, or the stational procession, to be held on four Marian feasts, he specified together the Feasts of the Nativity, the Annunciation, the Purification, and the Dormition of the Virgin Mary. [MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS Pope Pius XII 19]

They offered more profound explanations of its meaning and nature, bringing out into sharper light the fact that this feast shows, not only that the dead body of the Blessed Virgin Mary remained incorrupt, but that she gained a triumph out of death, her heavenly glorification after the example of her only begotten Son, Jesus Christ-truths that the liturgical books had frequently touched upon concisely and briefly. [MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS Pope Pius XII 19]

It was fitting that she, who had kept her virginity intact in childbirth, should keep her own body free from all corruption even after death. [MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS Pope Pius XII 21]

she has received an eternal incorruptibility of the body together with him who has raised her up from the tomb and has taken her up to himself in a way known only to him. [MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS Pope Pius XII 22]

preserved and exempt from all the corruption of the tomb and raised up to such glory in heaven. [MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS Pope Pius XII 26]

for it is wrong to believe that her body has seen corruption-because it was really united again to her soul and, together with it, crowned with great glory in the heavenly courts. [MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS Pope Pius XII 28]

And St. Alphonsus writes that "Jesus did not wish to have the body of Mary corrupted after death, since it would have redounded to his own dishonor to have her virginal flesh, from which he himself had assumed flesh, reduced to dust. [MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS Pope Pius XII 35]

By those statements the Catholic Church "infallibly" declared that Mary died. Can we stop already with the nonsense of Catholics denying that it did so?

130 posted on 03/24/2015 6:22:18 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: daniel1212
And where does John say that is Mary?

See my previous comment. Or are you suggesting that "the child who is to rule with an iron rod" is someone other than Jesus? And where does Rome officially teach that is the only interpretation of that verse?

Why, exactly, would you care? But as to your question: "Rome" does not subscribe to the "either/or" mentality which permeates much of Evangelical Fundamentalism; the interpretation I gave (which makes perfect sense, given the context--i.e. the child is Jesus, and the mother is His mother) is true, along with other (more symbolic) meanings. The Book of Revelation is multi-layered, and not limited to one interpretation only... nor are multiple interpretations necessarily mutually exclusive.

And where does this interpretation enjoy the unanimous consent of the fathers?

That would be wonderful, granted (there is no unanimity, on this point)... but since when is that any sort of absolute requirement? And why would you (a Protestant) care, even if they did? The Fathers are unanimous in many things which Protestants reject (e.g. the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, the perpetual virginity and sinlessness of Mary, etc.), so I'm not sure why you're offering this; it seems to smell of "red herring".

If #2 is not the case, then that is simply one interpretation, and which is the wrong one.

*IS* the wrong one? Is that simple one interpretation? :)


131 posted on 03/24/2015 6:29:30 AM PDT by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
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To: paladinan

“(One might as easily denigrate motherhood by portraying it as “an endless stream of dirty diapers”... “

Let’s be clear here, what I am denigrating is a fairy tale being promoted by your church authorities. Nobody has been to heaven and returned to report to us what Mary is actually up to. The fairy tale is preposterous, verges on blasphemy, and deserves to be ridiculed.

“If we’re willing to admit that God enlightens those whom He wills in that case, why is it such a stretch that He could enlighten the Communion of Saints in Heaven to whatever prayers He wishes them to know?”

It’s an assumption for which we have no evidence. One simply doesn’t base a doctrine on the principle of “why not?” and then delude the faithful with a fantasy. Especially when such a fantasy contradicts the clear instructions of Jesus on how we are to pray.

“Why pray for ANYONE else, EVER, since God both knows the needs before we ask, and God has the power to deal with them with no effort?”

We do this because Christ instructed us to do this, unlike prayers to saints, Mary, etc.

“The idea that God would somehow be passionately desirous of our prayers for each other while on earth, but would (for whatever reason) absolutely prohibit any such prayer by the Saints IN Heaven for those still on earth, is absurd.”

Nobody is saying that is prohibited, there is just no evidence for it one way or the other. What we do know is prohibited is for the living to attempt to communicate with those who have died in the flesh. God condemned that practice quite clearly and spelled out consequences for those who engage in that grave sin, so it’s hardly something that should be encouraged by a church.


132 posted on 03/24/2015 6:33:16 AM PDT by Boogieman
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To: Boogieman
“Mt 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.” It’s also worth noting the “till” in that sentence. This usage plainly states that after she bore Jesus, Joseph did “know” her. If the word “before” had been used, we couldn’t make that conclusion, but with “till”, there is no other way to read it.

Hm...
And Michal the daughter of Saul had no child till the day of her death. (2 Samuel 6:23)
This usage plainly states that after the day of her death, Michal did "have a child". If the word “before” had been used, we couldn’t make that conclusion, but with “till”, there is no other way to read it.

:)

Do you see my point?
133 posted on 03/24/2015 6:35:24 AM PDT by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
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To: CynicalBear

Re: latria, dulia, etc.: please do remember that Catholics do not obey the artificial, man-made tradition known as “Scripture alone”. The distinction by which “dulia” and “latria” were made “technical terms” came long after the NT was written... just as the words “Trinity” (Gk: Triada) and “consubstantial” (Gk: homoousios) were coined well after the NT was written. They were coined for convenience (such as the word “venial”, to describe sin which is not mortal—cf. 1 John 5:16-17), and not for any supposed magic, totemic value.


134 posted on 03/24/2015 6:43:09 AM PDT by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
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To: Elsie
Oh; did I type CELIBATE? I meant sexless, frigid, abnormal.

Those who type such foul and perverse things about the Mother of Jesus say far more about themselves than they ever say about Mary.
135 posted on 03/24/2015 6:45:07 AM PDT by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
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To: ealgeone; Elsie; jobim
1) You've won the argument when the names start coming out

2) the poster is likely a dimocrat and like all dimocrats [...]


Good news, jobim! You've won the argument, according to eagleone! :)

I *was* wondering when the next example of painful irony would come out of the anti-Catholic-Church side; it's been at least a week since I last saw one! (Granted, I haven't been reading much.)
136 posted on 03/24/2015 6:48:03 AM PDT by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
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To: daniel1212
If you wish to use words accurately, then, please refrain from using the words "worship," "adore," and words related to "latria" (such as "idolatry"). Instead, direct your critique to the practices of honor and intercession, dulia and hyperdulia, in relation to the Saints such as Mary. It would show a necessary understanding for how we define, develop, and, yes, limit our own customs of honor, and, I think make the discussion more productive.

With that in mind, you can still make all the points you just made, but more accurately. :o)

Let me address the question of bowing and kneeling, because if I am understanding you correctly, you are saying that those are gestures of latria,, not, properly speaking, dulia.

Here’s where the confusion comes in. What’s forbidden is offering a creature gestures (bowing, kneeling, prostrating, or whatever) of adoration; not we are not forbidden those same gestures or postures as a sign of honor or respect.

Can I show that Biblically? Sure. It permeates Old Testament culture.

I looked up “kneel(ing)” and “bow(ing)” in the good old BibleGateway Keyword Search, and found so many references it would be exhausting to list them all. Genesis 23:7 Then Abraham rose and bowed down before the people of that land

Genesis 33:3-7 Jacob bowed down to the ground seven times ("seven" is Biblically used as symbolic number indicating completion and perfection) as he approached his brother Esau

maidservants and their children bow down to Esau; Leah and her children bow; Joseph and Rachel bow;

Genesis 37 Joseph’s dreams: his brothers’ sheaves of corn -— and then the sun and moon and eleven stars —— bow down to him. Later his brothers actually do bow down to him with their faces to the ground (another sign of absolute subjection or submission);

Genesis 48:11 Joseph bows to Jacob “with his face to the earth”;

1 Kings 1:15 Bathsheba bows low (face to the ground) and kneels before the aged king David

2 Kings 1:13 the captain kneels before the prophet Elijah, and "prays" —begs-— him to spare his life and the life of his 50 men

Moses bows down to father-in-law; Ruth bows down to Boaz; David prostrates before Jonathan; David prostrates to Saul; Abigail prostrates to David; Saul prostrates to Samuel; Nathan prostrates to David; Obadiah bows to the ground before Elijah; the prophets in Jericho bow before Elisha; the “whole assembly” bows low and prostrates before David;

David bows to the Temple (a place); the sons of the oppressors will bow to Zion (a place); David prostrates to Jerusalem (another place);

God causes the king’s adversaries to bow prostrate on the ground and “lick the dust at his feet”.

OK, pretty obviously the patriarchs, prophets, and kings knew about the commandment not to bow down and worship anything or anybody but God. But here they are bowing, kneeling, and prostrating, and God is not offended. Why?

Because the commandment clearly forbids bowing and adoring a creature as the Creator; it does not forbid kneeling or bowing (to king, prophet, father, husband or brother) as a form of honor.

The commandment does not prohibit kneeling or bowing to give honor. It prohibits adoration toward anyone but Almighty God.

Now here’s an interesting episode:

1 Kings 2:19
When Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, the king stood up to meet her, bowed down to her and sat down on his throne. He had a throne brought for the king’s mother, and she sat down at his right hand.

Here’s the King bowing to and enthroning his mother. Does that mean she’s equal to God? No. It doesn’t even mean she’s equal to the King. It means he’s pleased to honor her because of her royal dignity, her relationship as Queen Mother.

As our mindset gets further and further from traditional custom and culture, it gets harder and harder to grasp what was once the universal language of physical gesture (he salute, the tip of the hat, the bow, the genuflection, the handclasp, the curtsey, the kiss) and put each expression in its proper perspective.

I think we need to be more engaged with these ancient ceremonial practices of address and gesture, so intrinsic to an honor culture; a courtly culture; a Biblical culture. It’s something to ponder and appreciate. As I live, I appreciate it more and more.

137 posted on 03/24/2015 6:53:31 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Seriously.)
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To: paladinan; RaceBannon
Evaluating the Greek as used in Luke and John in describing Jesus proves the teaching of the roman catholic church regarding the perpertual virginity of Mary is wrong.

This explains why you rarely see the roman catholic appeal to the Greek in this matter.

In the Greek, Luke uses the phrase τὸν υἱὸν αὐτῆς τὸν πρωτότοκον, translated literally as the son of her, the firstborn. In English we would say, her firstborn son.

The key word in this section is πρωτότοκον (prototokos). It means first, pre-eminent; the first among others. It allows for other children to be born to Mary.

Contrast this with John 3:16 where John uses the Greek Υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ, literally Son the only begotten.

The key word is μονογενῆ (monogenes). It means one and only; one of a class.

We know this is the correct description of Jesus as He is the only Son of God.

However, He is not the only son of Mary. Recall that Luke was a physician who by his own account researched a lot so we would have an accurate account of what happened.

If Luke wanted to indicate Mary had only one child he would have used the phrase John did.

In reading the accounts where the brothers and sisters of Jesus are mentioned we need to keep the verses in context.

We have the account of Paul in Galatians where he noted he met James, the Lord's brother among others.

These are not cousins of Jesus as the word cousin, ἀνεψιός, is used only in reference to Barnabas's cousin Mark. As Paul had traveled with Barnabas so he would know if he was a cousin or a brother or other relative.

>Mt 12:46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, [his] mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.<

"Brethren" (Gk: "adelphos") was a rendering of the Aramaic word for "kin"--which could mean anything from "blood-sibling" (cf. Matthew 4:21, etc.) to "fellow Israelite" (cf. Phillipians 4:8, etc.) No one can simply (and carelessly) "run away" with the English word "brother", and immediately conclude, "Ah! Blood siblings, and fellow biological children of Mary!" Ditto, for Matthew 12.

Here is where the roman catholic departs from the clear reading of the text....allowing the text to interpret itself as it does not fit their agenda.

In Phil 4:8 the text tells us Paul is writing to the church at Philippi. Were fellow believers called brothers and sisters? Yes. And how do we know the difference? CONTEXT IS KEY!!!!!!

Now, in this next passage in Matt, ask the following questions:

Where are they?

Where was Jesus from?

Where did His family live?

Some background on Nazareth will help with this. It was not a big town; rather it was a small village. Estimated population was around 500. The people know each other.

Where was Jesus teaching?

Was his teaching something new; something they'd never heard before?

To show their astonishment what did they ask?

When Jesus had finished these parables, He departed from there. 54He came to His hometown and began teaching them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished, and said, “Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers? 55“Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56“And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?” Matt 13:53-56

Now, after answering the questions and reading the verse in context.....we see Jesus had brothers and sister.

138 posted on 03/24/2015 6:54:24 AM PDT by ealgeone
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To: paladinan
2) the poster is likely a dimocrat and like all dimocrats [...]

Didn't realize this was name calling in your world view.

Interesting world in which you live.

139 posted on 03/24/2015 7:07:47 AM PDT by ealgeone
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To: Mrs. Don-o; RnMomof7
>>The Catholic Church does not offer Mary "Latria"<<

Let's see if that's true or not. We find the Greek word "Latria" here:

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service (latreia).

Greek - latreia - Definition: service rendered to God [http://biblehub.com/greek/2999.htm]

Now let's see if that "service" is rendered to Mary by Catholics.

O Mother of God, Immaculate Mary, to thee do I dedicate my body and soul, all my prayers and deeds, my joys and sufferings, all that I am an all that I have. With a joyful heart I surrender myself to thy love. To thee will I devote my services of my own free will for the salvation of mankind, and for the help of the Holy Church whose Mother thou art.
From now on my only desire is to do all things with thee, through thee, and for thee. I know I can accomplish nothing by my own strength, whereas thou can do everything that is the will of thy Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ. Thou are always victorious. Grant, therefore, O Helper of the Faithful, that my family, my parish, and my country might become in truth the Kingdom where thou reignest in the glorious presence God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, forever and ever. Amen. [http://www.marypages.com/PrayerstoMary.htm]

Well, well, well! Devoting their service (latreia) to Mary!

>>We give her "Hypedulia"<<

Catholics do indeed give her "hyperdulia". But let's look to see where that "hyperdulia" actually belongs.

First let's look where that word "dulia" comes from.

Greek - doulos - properly, someone who belongs to another; a bond-slave, without any ownership rights of their own [http://biblehub.com/greek/1401.htm]

1 Corinthians 7:22 For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant (doulos).

Hyperdulia - Etymology - Medieval Latin hyperdūlīa, from hyper-, from Ancient Greek ὑπέρ (hupér, “above”) + dulia, from Ancient Greek δουλεία (douleía, “slavery”), from δοῦλος (doûlos, “slave”). [http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hyperdulia]

Catholics give servitude or enslavement to Mary higher than or above what Paul gave to Christ. Words mean things.

140 posted on 03/24/2015 7:11:25 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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