Who Are Pope Francis’s Critics? (Catholic/Orthodox Caucus)

NY Times ^ | 12 march 2015 | Ross Douthat

[NRx]

The latest cover of the new New Republic features Elizabeth Stoker Bruenig taking on conservative anxieties about Pope Francis’s possible “radicalism.” The essay isn’t just about the pope; it offers a larger critique of the way that conservatives, Catholic and otherwise, relate to and interpret the human/Western/Christian past. I have a few disagreements with this depiction, and a few critical generalizations I’d make about the liberal tendency in Catholic thinking and debate right now. But I’ll save those for another post; for now I think it would be helpful for the discussion of Catholicism in the Francis era to spend some time distinguishing between the different groups who have doubts, or flirt with having doubts, about this pontificate, because in Bruenig’s account they run together a bit and I think the distinctions are actually enormously important.

[NRx]

HT: Rorate Caeli.This is a very interesting piece and well worth a sober read.

[E. Pluribus Unum]

Catholics.

[Mastador1]

Catholics

AMEN to that!

[SaxxonWoods]

Well, THAT was easy.

[HangnJudge]

Various Popes speaking Ex Cathedra...

http://www.onetruecatholicfaith.com/Roman-Catholic-Articles.php?id=443&title=1.+The+Chair+of+St.+Peter+on+Outside+the+Catholic+Church+There+is+No+Salvation&category=Outside+the+Catholic+Church+there+is+no+Salvation&page=1

Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra:

“With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin… Furthermore, we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.”2

I have never understood how one can name themselves Catholic and NOT be entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff

[ebb tide]

As a child were you not subject to your parents? And at one time or another did you not disobey your parents?

[NRx]

Out of curiosity, on what basis do you asset that Unam Sanctam was/is an ex-cathedra statement? Is there an official list of documents formally recognized by Rome as having this distinction?

[ConservingFreedom]

1. Traditionalists.
2. Catholics who are economic conservatives or libertarians.
3. Doctrinal conservatives.

I'm not sure how different 1 and 3 are - but I'm all of the above.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Thoughtful, subtle, careful distinctions, global rather than USA-centric view: Douthat probably won't get much traction around here.

Thanks, though, for posting this.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Had to LOL when Douthat mentioned that Rush Limbaugh wouldn’t have any problems with Cardinal Kasper’s relaxed stance toward the divorced/remarried.

[NRx]

“Had to LOL when Douthat mentioned that Rush Limbaugh wouldn’t have any problems with Cardinal Kasper’s relaxed stance toward the divorced/remarried.”

At the risk of being accused of heresy, I am not a big fan of Rush. Whenever I hear him bloviating I am reminded of the words of the (in)famous Hollywood vamp Tallulah Bankhead; que the deep southern drawl with the floor length mink coat, sunglasses and long cigarette holder...

“My daddy warned me about men and liquor, but he forgot to mention cocaine.”

[jobim]

Thoughtful and probing analysis for the NYT readers. Doughat has done a worthy service.

[HangnJudge]

Referenced from the linked web site, I do not have independent verification.

[Mrs. Don-o]

[Kolokotronis]

So far as I can see, we Orthodox think very highly of +Francis, and not only because he has demoted the excerable heretic Burke. Of course, most Orthodox I know also had and have the utmost respect for +Benedict XVI for different reasons.

[Ransomed]

I doubt that he would be for it. He’s smart enough to realize that 100% of those all for things like abortion and ‘gay marriage’ are invariably also for allowing multiple marriages in the Catholic Church. Every time. And why should he care if it isn’t even his own faith?

Freegards

[crusadersoldier]

Agreed ... Catholics .... who in this sea of moral relativism saw the Church as the one bit of dry ground to cling to. Now Francis has muddled that with his statements and they feel adrift.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Well, El Rushbo has talked a LOT against Pope Francis, even though, as you say, "why should he care if it isn't even his own faith?"

The bit about Rush agreeing with an elastic approach to divorce/remarriage would be making reference to this:

Rush Hudson Limbaugh
Spouse(s)
Roxy Maxine McNeely (1977–1980, div.)
Michelle Sixta (1983–1990, div.)
Marta Fitzgerald (1994–2004, div.)
Kathryn Rogers (2010–present)

[NRx]

The evidence is purely anecdotal, namely conversations at coffee hour after liturgy, but the reviews I have been getting are decidedly mixed. Most, at least among those who care or pay any attention, approve of things like his preference for the title of “Bishop of Rome.” Others are concerned that he is squishy on some important doctrinal points where Orthodox and Catholics have tended to line up together.

[Ransomed]

I know about all the marriages. Having a bunch of marriages doesn’t necessarily mean you want some group you don’t even belong to recognizing or approving of all those marriages, right? I think he is probably smart enough to realize what the libs of any group want and pick the opposite thing.

Freegards