Following the principle of first mention, In Genesis I see the symbols for the sun, moon, and stars in Joseph's dream, not to mention Israel, who is a man. Now Israel loved Joseph more than all his children, because he was the son of his old age: and he made him a coat of many colours. And when his brethren saw that their father loved him more than all his brethren, they hated him, and could not speak peaceably unto him. And Joseph dreamed a dream, and he told it his brethren: and they hated him yet the more. And he said unto them, Hear, I pray you, this dream which I have dreamed: For, behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and, lo, my sheaf arose, and also stood upright; and, behold, your sheaves stood round about, and made obeisance to my sheaf. And his brethren said to him, Shalt thou indeed reign over us? or shalt thou indeed have dominion over us? And they hated him yet the more for his dreams, and for his words. And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth? And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying.
Genesis, Catholic chapter thirty seven, Protestant verses three to eleven, as authorized, but not authored, by King James
Since you must agree that the sun represents Jacob, the moon Rachel, and the stars Joseph's brothers, you cannot avoid the inference that similar symbols in the Revelation vision also represent similar people (ie., Sun => Jewish Patriarchs, Moon => Jewish Matriarchs, Twelve Stars => Twelve Tribes of Israel), and thus the woman herself is adorned with Israel, but is not simply Israel. Further, this woman must have given birth to a man child who ascended up to heaven. Your list of candidates grows thin.
Here are just a few references of Israel in the feminine:
Jeremiah 31:4; Amos 5:1,2, speak of the ‘virgin of Israel’ in prophetic passages about the nation.
Jer. 6:2, speaks of the ‘daughter of Zion’ in a passage clearly about the nation.
Jer. 4:30,31. “And when thou art spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers will seek thy life. For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewaileth herself, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers”.
Isaiah 40:2, “Speak comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the lord’s hand double for all her sins.”
Isaiah 51:3 “For the Lord shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the Lord; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody”.
Indeed And the pride of Israel doth testify to his face: therefore shall Israel and Ephraim fall in their iniquity; Judah also shall fall with them. They shall go with their flocks and with their herds to seek the LORD; but they shall not find him; he hath withdrawn himself from them. They have dealt treacherously against the LORD: for they have begotten strange children: now shall a month devour them with their portions. And the pride of Israel testifieth to his face: and they do not return to the LORD their God, nor seek him for all this. For Israel hath forgotten his Maker, and buildeth temples; and Judah hath multiplied fenced cities: but I will send a fire upon his cities, and it shall devour the palaces thereof. When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt. And Jacob fled into the country of Syria, and Israel served for a wife, and for a wife he kept sheep. And by a prophet the LORD brought Israel out of Egypt, and by a prophet was he preserved. O Israel, return unto the LORD thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity. Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips. Asshur shall not save us; we will not ride upon horses: neither will we say any more to the work of our hands, Ye are our gods: for in thee the fatherless findeth mercy. I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him. I will be as the dew unto Israel: he shall grow as the lily, and cast forth his roots as Lebanon. His branches shall spread, and his beauty shall be as the olive tree, and his smell as Lebanon. They that dwell under his shadow shall return; they shall revive as the corn, and grow as the vine: the scent thereof shall be as the wine of Lebanon. Ephraim shall say, What have I to do any more with idols? I have heard him, and observed him: I am like a green fir tree. From me is thy fruit found. Who is wise, and he shall understand these things? prudent, and he shall know them? for the ways of the LORD are right, and the just shall walk in them: but the transgressors shall fall therein.
Hosea, Catholic chapters five, seven, eight, eleven, fourteen,
Protestant verses five to seven, ten, fourteen, one, twelve to thirteen, one to nine,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James
I said before: After Jesus ascended, Mary was in the upper room for days waiting for the Holy Ghost, not in the wilderness.
The REMNANT of her seed, is the remnant that the Lord saves after the tribulation.
I think I see a preconceived notion here.
Mary is of Israel, not Israel of Mary.
You are forgetting that Miriam bore the Messiah, and the holy catholic apostolic church of which she is an integral part, so to speak. Remember also that Matthew records a fulfillment of "Israel" from Hosea in And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way. And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him. When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt: And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.. Matthew, Catholic chapter two, Protestant verses twelve to fifteen, as authorized, but not authored by King James
And know that neither Jesus Christ, nor his apostles EVER used the phrase ‘God the Son’, but always used the phrase ‘Son of God’. I believe that they completely understood the Godhead.
How can you know that ? Which faith community do you belong to ? This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true. And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.John, Catholic chapter twenty one, Protestant verses twenty four to twenty five, as authorized, but not authored by King James
Are you ‘Free Republic the af_vet_1981’, or are you ‘af_vet_1981 of Free Republic’?
Both and more
**Following the principle of first mention, In Genesis I see the symbols for the sun, moon, and stars in Joseph’s dream, not to mention Israel, who is a man.**
The dream is told, and then interpretted by Jacob (Israel), making it clear who is the sun, moon, and stars. They are all equal in submission to Joseph. Joseph, as himself, is lord over them all.
In Revelation 12, John breaks away from the order of the tribulation events, to tell a history of the Jews, their long fight against Satan, and the promise of a deliverer. The vision is told, but the description is not the same layout as Joseph’s dream. The ‘woman’ is wearing the sun and stars. They make up the chosen and annointed nation of Israel (consisting of the twelve tribes). The moon is ‘under her feet’, which is not a place of honor. The ‘moon’ is more than submissive; it is defeated. In this vision the ‘moon’ is Satan, imo. Do you think that the ‘matriarchs’ are to be under foot?
There is no witness for your interpretation that the woman is specifically Mary. But as the nation of Israel, there are numerous witnesses by the prophets, speaking of the 3 1/2 years, and that it pertains to the nation of Israel as a whole, not to an individual. Ditto for the ‘remnant’.
**And Jacob fled into the country of Syria, and Israel served for a wife, and for a wife he kept sheep. And by a prophet the LORD brought Israel out of Egypt, and by a prophet was he preserved.**
Jacob (’Israel’) entered Egypt with his family, but was buried in Canaan. His descendants left as the nation of Israel, led by the prophet Moses. Likewise, God called the child Jesus out of Egypt.
The Rev. 12 account is not the only story ‘tweaked’ to build a case for Mary being something other than she really is. The denial of Mary having more children is based on interpretting ‘brethern’ and ‘sisters’, as cousins, since in some cases the Greek word can be used for both siblings or cousins. But, context is key to understanding:
In Matthew 13:53-58 (also Mark 6:1-6, and Luke 4:16-30), we find Jesus Christ leaving an area, and coming back “into his own country”, where “had been brought up” (Lk 4:16)(He had already made a name for himself elsewhere, with his teaching and miracles). After teaching in the synagogue in Nazareth, the people said, “Whence hath THIS man this wisdom, and these mighty works? Is not THIS the carpenter’s son? is not HIS mother called Mary? and HIS brethern, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And HIS sisters, are they not all with us? whence then hath THIS man ALL THESE THINGS? And they were offended in him.......And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.”
His hometown folks couldn’t understand how he could be so DIFFERENT from his siblings, seeing that they had known the whole family for YEARS. They had watched all the kids grow up. WHY did HE turn out so different from the other kids. It didn’t make sense. So much so, they were offended that this hometown boy, this man that had grown up right there, would be displaying such authority.
They were offended.......just like Jacob and Joseph’s brothers were offended that Joseph would seem to place himself in such a high position.
An only child would have had no such comparisons.
“And his brethern therefore said unto him, depart hence, and go into Judea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest.......for neither did his brethern believe in him.” John 7:3,5
**You are forgetting that Miriam bore the Messiah**
You are forgetting that before ‘Miriam’ was, ‘I AM’ had been around a LONG time.
I said: And know that neither Jesus Christ, nor his apostles EVER used the phrase ‘God the Son’, but always used the phrase ‘Son of God’. I believe that they completely understood the Godhead.
You replied: How can you know that ? Which faith community do you belong to ?
It doesn’t matter that there is so much not written about the Lord. He hasn’t changed, and neither has his words, or his doctrine. So it doesn’t matter what church I attend, if all I do is testify to his written words as true. (I’m a Oneness Apostolic)