Posted on 03/07/2015 2:48:45 PM PST by RaceBannon
**And I will give power to my two witnesses**
The Word is silent on the names of the two witnesses.
Some think that one is Enoch.
Besides, since the outpouring of the Holy Ghost on Pentecost, there are no scriptural records of any of the dead in Christ being awakened before the ‘trump of God’ sounds.
He not only said it, but it is written. The foundation consists of tHe Jewish apostles and prophets, with Messiah himself as the chief cornerstone, your denial notwithstanding, for it is written.
I accept your testimony that you don't know where Moses and Elijah are, nor Enoch or the other saints raised from the dead.
Besides, since the outpouring of the Holy Ghost on Pentecost, there are no scriptural records of any of the dead in Christ being awakened before the ‘trump of God’ sounds. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour? Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and almsdeeds which she did. And it came to pass in those days, that she was sick, and died: whom when they had washed, they laid her in an upper chamber. And forasmuch as Lydda was nigh to Joppa, and the disciples had heard that Peter was there, they sent unto him two men, desiring him that he would not delay to come to them. Then Peter arose and went with them. When he was come, they brought him into the upper chamber: and all the widows stood by him weeping, and shewing the coats and garments which Dorcas made, while she was with them. But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up. And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive. And it was known throughout all Joppa; and many believed in the Lord.
Luke, Catholic chapter ten, Protestant verses twenty eight to twenty nine,
John, Catholic chapter fourteen, Protestant verses eight to fourteen,
Acts, Catholic chapter nine, Protestant verses thirty six to forty two,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James
I did not realize until now that you had your own translation, and had modified the scriptures on purpose, which apparently you need to do, not me, to try to argue against what is written.
I said : The Word is silent on the names of the two witnesses. Some think that one is Enoch.
You said: I accept your testimony that you don’t know where Moses and Elijah are, nor Enoch or the other saints raised from the dead.
I say: I said nothing about the whereabouts of the deceased. I said there is no mention of the names of the ‘two witnesses’ in Revelation. So, I don’t pretend that I do know.
Tabitha was raised from the dead to continue living a mortal life. There is no testamony of her having an “out of body’ experience, so she must have been asleep in Christ for those few hours.
I wrote it to suit your organizations interpretation. I’ll shorten it for you: “Thou art Peter, and upon you will I build my church.”
Your interpretation has Peter as the foremost stone, immediately following Christ. Yet neither Peter, nor the rest of the apostles, ever taught that he was greater than any of the others.
And he knew to call Jesus the “Son of the living God’, not ‘God the Son’.
Yes, now that we've established that a second time, I accept your testimony that you don't know where Moses and Elijah are, nor Enoch or the other saints raised from the dead.
Besides, since the outpouring of the Holy Ghost on Pentecost, there are no scriptural records of any of the dead in Christ being awakened before the ‘trump of God’ sounds.
False, as I proved from scripture.
Tabitha was raised from the dead to continue living a mortal life. There is no testimony of her having an “out of body’ experience, so she must have been asleep in Christ for those few hours.
You now admit Tabitha was raised from the dead but try to dismiss it with your opinion.
Purposefully corrupting the scriptures as a debating tactic demonstrates a lack of reverence for that which is holy and is unprofitable. Cease from evil.
Your interpretation has Peter as the foremost stone, immediately following Christ. Yet neither Peter, nor the rest of the apostles, ever taught that he was greater than any of the others.
I showed you from the scriptures that the Jewish apostles and prophets are the foundation, with the Messiah himself, as the chief cornerstone, of the holy catholic apostolic church. I did not post the scripture, though I could, where the Apostle to the Gentiles wrote the LORD gave Cephas the apostleship to the Jews.
And he knew to call Jesus the “Son of the living God’, not ‘God the Son’.
This is the second time you have objected to Jesus being called "God the Son," which I assume means you deny Jesus is God the Son. Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Psalms, Catholic chapter forty five, Protestant verses six to seven,
Hebrews, Catholic chapter one, Protestant verses one to eight,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James
**Yes, now that we’ve established that a second time, I accept your testimony that you don’t know where Moses and Elijah are, nor Enoch or the other saints raised from the dead.**
The word tells me that those men were faithful. Their souls are saved. The spiritual realm is what I can’t see, so I can’t see them. The scriptures call it hope. For now we see in a glass darkly. If you know where the souls of the deceased are, then you can tell me absolutely where the souls of every deceased president of the U.S. is right now.
**False, as I proved from scripture.**
You proved nothing. Tabitha was raised to CONTINUE her MORTAL life here on earth. The word says nothing about her ascending to heaven, for the scriptures do not record the remainder of her life.
**Purposefully corrupting the scriptures as a debating tactic demonstrates a lack of reverence for that which is holy and is unprofitable. Cease from evil.**
Why did that offend you? That is exactly how your church interprets that verse. Because I word the verse to match your church’s interpretation I’m accused of evil?
Which is worse, re-writing the scripture for debate, or re-writing the scriptures BY one’s ACTIONS to build a church doctrine?
**I showed you from the scriptures that the Jewish apostles and prophets are the foundation, with the Messiah himself, as the chief cornerstone**
Don’t forget that Paul was also a Jewish apostle.
**I did not post the scripture, though I could, where the Apostle to the Gentiles wrote the LORD gave Cephas the apostleship to the Jews.**
I don’t disagree with that. That puts Peter and Paul on equal footing. One is not greater than the other.
**This is the second time you have objected to Jesus being called “God the Son,” which I assume means you deny Jesus is God the Son.**
Neither Jesus, nor the apostles, EVER used the phrase “God the Son”. They knew that the Son came from the Father, and went to the Father, and that the Father was in him as well.
God the Father is a Spirit (John 4:24).
Jesus Christ declared that the Father was in him doing the works, giving him the words to speak (John 14:10,11).
Jesus Christ, John, and Paul, all said that God is invisible.
God the Father made his attributes visible through Christ. Which is what the Son says thoughout the book of John.
**Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.**
God is a Spirit, omnipresent, and he is in Christ reconciling the world unto himself.
Do you confess, or deny, that Jesus the Messiah is God the Son ?
I confess, just like Peter, that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God.
So, believing like Peter, I’m wrong? And, just like Jesus Christ and his apostles, NEVER using the phrase “God the Son” to define God, I’m wrong?
Now, it’s your turn to answer a question (or three):
In John 14:10, when he said, “Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the WORDS that I speak unto you I speak NOT of myself: but the Father that DWELLETH IN ME, HE DOETH the WORKS.”, was Jesus Christ telling the truth?
Most of the following references are from the mouth of Christ. With your coequal, copowerful, three persons confusion, why is the Son attributing all power, and wisdom as coming from the Father?
gave: 3:16, 10:29, 12:49, 14:31
gavest: 17:4,6,8,12,22, 18:9
give: 14:6, 15:16, 16:23
given: 3:35, 5:26,27,36, 6:39,65, 7:39, 13:3, 17:2(2),7,8,9,11,24(2)
received: 10:18
send: 14:26, 15:26, 17:8, Acts 3:20
sent: 3:17,34, 4:34, 5:23,24,30,36,37,38, 6:29,38,39,40,44,57, 7:16,18,28,29,33, 8:16,18,26,29,42, 9:4, 10:36, 11:42, 12:44,45,49, 13:16,20, 14:24, 15:21, 16:5, 17:3,18,21,23,25, 20:21
will (noun): 4:34, 5:30(2), 6:38,39,40, 7:17
will (verb): 5:20, 11:22, 12:26, 14:26, 15:26, 16:23
word and words (actually there are others that should be included, but the Son made it clear in the following ones whose ‘words’ they were): 3:34, 14:24, 17:6,8,14,17
work and works: 4:34, 5:20,36(2), 9:4, 10:25,37,38, 14:10, 17:4
doctrine: (I’ll spell it out) 7:16,17: “My doctrine is NOT mine, but HIS that SENT me. If any man will do HIS will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of GOD, or whether I speak of myself.”
That’s over 100 references (from the book of John alone) showing that the Son’s source of ALL things divine, ALL power, ALL wisdom, etc., is from God the Father. There are plenty more alluding to the same.
BUT......here is another question for you: With your separate and distinct persons of God theology; can you quote a scripture that shows the FATHER receiving anything divine from the Son?
You see, we ‘oneness’ believe that the Father is a Spirit (John 4:24), and omnipresent, and is IN Christ, giving him ALL power, just as the Christ testified.
Your organization demands that Mary made more of God, therefore defining her as the ‘mother of God’. She is mother to the man that “..God hath made......both Lord and Christ”. Acts 2:36. Mary didn’t make him ‘Lord and Christ’, God the Father did.
By dwelling in Christ (the image of the INVISIBLE God), God could display his attributes to man, by using a perfect man.
**Yes, you are wrong. You are in a Protestant cult called Oneness Pentecostalism that denies the Trinity. This demonstrates a fundamental flaw in Protestantism as its offshoots devolve and renounce fundamental Christian doctrine, the Trinity, claiming Sola Scriptura as their justification.**
I was thoroughly indoctrinated into trinitarianism during my first 28 years on this earth. Your opinion, and the unspiritual opinion of others means nothing. You won’t even answer my questions. If you could scripturally answer them, you would.
So, I will give you more questions to not answer:
1. Are you and your word two separate and distinct persons? (we are made in the image of God aren’t we?)
2. Who’s greater: The Son says, “My Father, which is GAVE them me, is GREATER than ALL..”. 10:29; and “..for my Father is GREATER than I..”. 14:28.
3. Mat_28:19 “ Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:..”. The greatest teacher of all gave the disciples that commandment, and they promptly went about baptizing in the name of JESUS. Now, first of all, note that he says ‘name’ in the singular, not ‘names’. ‘Son’ is a title. “thou shalt call his NAME Jesus”. Luke 1:21. Jesus Christ said that his name is not his own (John 5:43), And Heb. 1:4 says that he inheritted it. The apostles knew what they were doing when they baptized in the name of ‘Jesus’. Do you use his name in water baptism?
4. “The Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the FATHER will SEND in MY NAME...”. So, what name are YOU going to use to request the coming of the Holy Ghost?
5. AND........don’t forget Matthew 28:18; Jesus..spake...”All power is GIVEN unto me in heaven and in Earth” (that’s pretty much everywhere, and let’s see, who GAVE it unto him?......could it be the Father that dwelleth in him, and he in the Father?).
6. Jesus praying to the Father (17:1), “And this is life eternal, that they might know THEE the ONLY TRUE GOD, ........AND........JESUS CHRIST, whom THOU hast SENT.” John 17:3. So, do you disagree with the Son, who declares the Father to be the “ONLY TRUE GOD”?
Or this: How does a ‘trinitarian’ explain this: “But of that day and hour knoweth....my Father only” (the 2nd and 3rd ‘persons of God’ don’t know??)?
You want the Christ to be the separate and distinct ‘Word’, but what saith the Master?.......Jesus Christ tells us where the Words come from:
John 3:34,35 “For he whom God hath SENT speaketh the WORDS of God: for God GIVETH not the Spirit by measure unto him. The Father loveth the Son, and hath GIVEN ALL THINGS iinto his hand.” The Spirit, which “proceedeth from the Father” (Jesus’ words, not mine), was GIVEN to the Christ without measure; unlimited, and in every fiber of his being.
8:26 “I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that hath SENT me is true; and I SPEAK to the world those things which I have HEARD of him.” 27 “They understood not that he spake to them of the FATHER.”
47-50 “And if any man hear my words........He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have NOT SPOKEN of MYSELF; but the FATHER which SENT me, he GAVE me a COMMANDMENT, what I should SAY, and what I should SPEAK. And I know his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I SPEAK therefore, even as the FATHER SAID unto ME, so I SPEAK.”
17:14 “I have given them THY WORD...”
17:17 “..THY WORD is truth”. (remember WHO the Son was talking to in John 17?)
Food for thought: 15:1 A vine (Son) and a husbandman (the Father). The husbandman plants the vine and cares for it, etc. The ‘husbandman’ gave the ‘vine’ it’s start, provides all it’s needs, and has the power to prune or even kill the vine. Of itself, the vine has no such power.
Satan, Peter, and Martha, all testified to the Christ that he is the ‘Son of God’, TO HIS FACE. He didn’t correct them. THAT is the plain reading of the scriptures. The phrase is found in the NT almost 50 times, and the phrases ‘God the Son’, and ‘God the Holy Ghost’ are found nowhere.
From his beginning creation (the only begotten), the Son has always had the Father in him, and he in the Father (because he said so). When the Son speaks, it is as the mouthpiece of God the Father. God the Father is the ‘I am’. The Christ is simply the image of the invisible Father, the ‘only true God’ (from the Christ’s testamony; John 17:1-3).
I can answer EVERY SINGLE argument you have, in your defense of the ‘trinity’, with this simple fact: The omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God the Father is IN Christ.
Jesus Christ inheritted his name. From who? When? How does someone inherit something if he has ALWAYS been possessor of it?
I choose to regard your questions as heretical cultist propaganda, as I would with the other pseudo Christian cults that deny the Trinity. Modern nontrinitarian Christian groups or denominations include Christadelphians, Christian Scientists, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Dawn Bible Students, Friends General Conference, Iglesia ni Cristo, Jehovah's Witnesses, Living Church of God, Oneness Pentecostals, Members Church of God International, Unitarian Universalist Christians, The Way International, The Church of God International and the United Church of God.
**I choose to regard your questions as heretical cultist propaganda, as I would with the other pseudo Christian cults that deny the Trinity.**
No, you choose not to defend a theory that is so unscriptural that you can’t find answers to my questions. If you were in the right, it would be easy.
I believe that there is a God the Father, the Son of God, and the Holy Ghost. I believe that the Son is of the Father (the Son says so). The Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father (the Son says so). The Father is the source of all things divine. You can’t prove it otherwise. That makes your testamony, of your church’s understanding of the Godhead, pretty weak.
The devil was busy making imposter churches while the writers of the epistles were still alive. Your’s simply became the mainstream media of so-called Christianity. No surprise there, for Jesus, speaking of the strait way to eternal life, said that few there be that find it.
I can keep ‘turning the other cheek’, nomatter how much disdain you have for what I believe, and still reply with scriptural truth. Can you?
I have neither harmed you, nor wronged you, nor given you offence. I patiently conversed with you until you repeated your heresy twice. I then told you the truth about it. I'm sorry that you are mired in it. I pray Hod free you from your bonds and deliver you from evil. I withdraw myself from you as I would from Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses engaging in proselytizing propaganda. But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself. Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
Titus, Catholic chapter three, Protestant verses nine to eleven, Second Thessalonians, Catholic chapter three, Protestant verses one to six, as authorized, but not authored, by King James
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.