Ping!
....trashing Protestants!
A classic Hebrew formulation.
Ephesians: 2 covers Christ’s Grace pretty well.
Our perspective on earth is temporal: at any khronos moment in time, we may or may not have obtained salvation, we may or may not have dis-obtained salvation. It may or may not be that salvation is not dis-obtainable in a temporal sense.
But our salvation depends on God's grace through Christ's death and resurrection, and God's perspective is not temporal but eternal. "Eternal" doesn't mean "it goes on forever without stopping," but rather that all experience occurs in a kairos at-the-moment-which-is-all-moments manner that cannot be explained in a temporal sense.
Christ, for example, has been kairos slain from the foundation of the world, once for all time, but He was slain during a khronos point in time on the cross, 2000 years ago in temporal measure.
So, assuming that I am saved, which I do assume based on Christ's merit, and assuming that I will not lose my salvation, which I do assume based on the grace of God acting in my life, then I cannot lose my salvation, because my salvation has existed since the foundation of the world, since the source of my salvation (the death and resurrection of Christ) has occurred since the foundation of the world. However, it can look, in a temporal sense, like a person could lose his/her salvation, but such a person was never saved in an eternal sense, because the whole of the person's experience would be already known in eternity.
This is where the paradox of predestination vs. free will is not "solved," because there is no solving it while we are stuck in our temporal existence, but recognized to have a solution that will be understood in eternity, when we will be in a position to understand existence both in temporal and eternal terms.
Matthew 6:9-15 (RSV)
9 Pray then like this: Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread;
12 And forgive us our debts, As we also have forgiven our debtors;
13 And lead us not into temptation, But deliver us from evil.
14 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you;
15 but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Another objection due to superficial consideration. Sola fide refers to the means of appropriating forgiveness, God "purifying their hearts by faith" as Peter said, (Acts 15:7-9) referring to souls being washed and born again before baptism, and thus confessing the Lord thereby, but which is not contrary to repentance and what that may require.
For to believe on the Lord Jesus is to assent to obey Him, according to light realized. And asking forgiveness means we must be forgiving, and this prayer is dealing with believers. Who by faith, have God as their Father, but who will work to chasten them unto repentance if they do not repent, or repent fully.
But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. (1 Corinthians 11:32)
That is where even torment in this life may come in, in working to preserve souls by faith from the torment that would result from "an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God." (Heb. 3:12)
Just refuted, but what the Lord's Prayer does Contradict is praying to anyone but the Lord, as the Lord instructs "Our Father who art in Heaven," not "Our Mother." The Holy Spirit provides over 200 prayers in Scripture, but not one single one addressed to anyone else in Heaven by the Lord.
That the Lord Jesus can be prayed to is a testimony to His deity.
Only pagans are show making supplications to someone else, that being the only Queen of Heaven in Scripture. (Jer. 44)
Nor is there any other heavenly intercessor but Christ, (1Pt. 2:5) whom the Holy Spirit sends us to as uniquely qualified and able and who alone is said to ever do so. (Heb. 2m4; 7:25)
Nor is any created being shown having the Divine ability to hear virtually infinite amounts of prayer from earth.
Angels and elders offering prayers as a memorial at the last days does not do it, and and attempting to extrapolate PTDS from earthly relations ignores the manifest division God set up btwn the two realms, which requires both to be in the same realm for any two way communication.
That is because Rome uses a faulty hermeneutic. In reality (if they read the text) Jesus was teaching the Law to the Jews. But, Rome simply does not notice that Gentiles were not a part of the so-called Sermon on the Mount. Rome believes Jesus is teaching, "Good Christian Living" in this sermon and love to recite the paternoster...they just don't recite all of it. And, you are correct, the ending is devastating. If you Jews do not forgive, you will not be forgiven.
But, when a good religious Gentile gets hold of this wrongheaded hermeneutic and tries to "obey" the Law of Moses, they find themselves either blind to their failure, or lying to themselves. Either way, this is broken religion. And, Rome loves to inflict broken religion on its sheeple.
Oddly, Rome does not advocate the tearing of eyes out, or the cutting off of one's hands...although Jesus required this, too. Rome does not know how to deal with Matt. 5:48 wherein Jesus demands that the person be "absolutely perfect"...except that a lot of RCs actually seem to speak like they are perfect (there's that blindness, again).
But, the funny thing is that if they were to keep reading, they would notice that Jesus even makes it clear that the so-called "Golden Rule" is simply a summation of the Law and the Prophets...not Christianity.
Of course the Sermon on the Mount is on a collision course with the Reformation...we don't believe that it is the Gospel of grace. It is the Law of Moses. But, Rome loves the Law and must mangle the story line in order to get the paternoster, the golden rule, the bearing of a cross, the forgiveness in order to get forgiven. Not real Christians.
Real believers in Christ recognize the flow of the story line and that we (if we are among the elect Eph. 1) were grafted in at the cross of Jesus, when the blood flowed (Eph. 2). Look at the Gospel after that moment and see what it teaches...it is not Catholicism.
forgiveness is part of faith
there is no versus there, they are not in opposition
No, it doesn't deny Christ's plain words. The forgiveness we give others comes from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit not from us. In our natural state we do not forgive. Those who think they are taking credit for themselves will always fall short.
I thought Jesus was a law abiding jew teaching other law abiding jews how to pray and they had no idea about death, burial and resurrection.
Their sins were covered up by sacrificing animals and spilling their blood.
I keep that prayer where it belongs because I realize that prayer was not addressed to us gentile dogs.
We can pray it (I do all the time)even though I know my sins have been forgiven, not because of anything I have done other then hit bottom and ask for help.
Loving it. Keep up the good work.
It seems to me that the argument presented by the author deserves consideration. IMHO many Eternal Security Protestants do not adequately take into consideration passages encouraging believers to "remain in the faith."
One detects a subtle arrogance not only of "possessing the correct theology" (unlike those Papists) but of a mistaken assurance that one is "eternally secure" and thus can commit any sin with impunity. This is a misguided and frankly dangerous attitude to take.
This from one who believes entirely in salvation by faith in Christ, "not of ourselves lest any man should boast."
Perhaps if the author wasn't so eager to criticize "Protestants" and the Reformation and presumptuously promote Roman Catholicism, he might have discovered that WAS what the Reformers were talking about.
The problem with this article is that the author started with a premise, and then sought out verses to reinforce his preconceived narrative. That is not how you handle God’s Word. You study God’s Word and allow the Holy Spirit to reveal His Truth. The other major flaw in his “my religion can beat up yours” piece is a failure to rightly divide God’s Word. For instance, you cannot apply what was written to Jews living under the Old Covenant, to the Body of Christ. What remains is a disjointed column that causes confusion and sows even more division among Believers.
The Bible is written FOR the Body of Christ. But not all of it is written ABOUT or TO the Body of Christ. In this present Age of Grace, there are three groups - Jews, Gentiles (nations), and Believers (Body of Christ or The Church - not a man-made religious denomination). You must know to which group you belong, and determine who Scripture addresses.
The entire scope of Matthew is announcing the King, and the Kingdom of Heaven to Israel. The Kingdom of Heaven is a temporal kingdom prophesied throughout the OT and exclusive to Israel. The Sermon on the Mount, which includes this prayer, is most definitely KOH teaching. How do you know? Well, let’s take a brief inventory.
Does your righteousness exceed that of the scribes and pharisees?
Have you ever called someone a fool? You are in danger of hell fire.
Have you looked at a woman (or man if it applies) lustfully? You have committed adultery in your heart.
Do you turn the other cheek? Do you relinquish all your goods when you are sued?
Do you do your alms before men in the SYNAOGUE?
Do you pray in the SYNAGOGUE to be seen by men, and on street corners using vain repititions?
Do you take thought for your life, what you shall eat or drink? Do you store things in a barn or bank?
What about your clothes?
Do you judge others, or attempt to remove the mote out of your brother’s eye before removing the beam in your own?
All of those should at least raise a caution flag for a Believer, part of the Body of Christ.
Let’s look at the prayer itself. Do you see anything missing? Doesn’t it seem a bit odd that this prayer never invokes the name of Jesus? (John 16:23-25) But wait, there’s more!
Why would a Believer pray for the Kingdom of Heaven? Think carefully before answering. The KOH was promised and rejected by Israel. It was offered again after the Resurrection, and again rejected. It is now postponed until the Tribulation, where everything in this prayer, and the Sermon on the Mount, will again be applicable.
“Give us this day our daily bread.” This is not just literal bread, but God’s Word, because man lives by every Word of God. Isn’t this at odds with Jesus’ teaching in John? I thought His Words were to abide in us? (John 15:1-11) And that if we kept his Words, God would dwell in us. (John 14:24) Hmmm.
“Forgive us our debts, as we forgive others.” The entire article stakes its claim here, so let’s explore this a bit. Forgiveness here is based on Law and not Grace. Its not based on mercy, but merit. That makes sense for the Jew living under the Law, but what about the Body of Christ? What does Paul write? And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you. (Ephesians 4:32 KJV - see also Colossians 3:12-17) Note the tense - hath forgiven you, and the reason for it - Christ’s sake. Believers don’t forgive others because they have to, its because they want to - its motivated by Love Himself. Love is the motivation for everything, not Law. Its the Fruit of the Spirit that is produced naturally as the Believer matures in the Truth. And if there was any doubt, Paul puts the hammer down in Ephesians 2. There can be NO DOUBT as to the meaning here.
Ephesians 2:4-5 (KJV)
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Ephesians 2:8-10 (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Let’s look at Romans 8 - There is NOW NO CONDEMNATION to those in Christ Jesus. The Body of Christ is DEAD to sin, and made alive IN CHRIST. Their standing is very different from the Jew attempting to keep the Law. And remember, the BOC is NEITHER Jew or Gentile, male or female, but ONE BODY with Jesus as the Head.
This is only complicated to the religious, who are determined to keep you in bondage, never allowing you to enjoy the Love and Freedom that comes IN CHRIST. If led by the Spirit, you are a child of God, made alive in Christ and seated in Heavenly Places. God’s Love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us. (Romans 5:5)
The Church was a Mystery, hidden in God and not revealed until Paul received the revelation of the Body of Christ, and then given the mandate to teach it. Even a cursory understanding of Paul’s letters should lead you to question how this prayer could be applied to a child of God. (Ephesians 3)
“And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.” For mature Believers, that statement makes little sense. Believers are MORE THAN CONQUERORS, walking in the Spirit they do not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Believers have the Word of God (armor and sword), the name of Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and the authority to overcome everything the enemy throws at them. (Luke 10:19, Romans 8: 26-39, Galatians 5:13-18, Ephesians 6, 1 Peter 5:6-11, 1 John 5:1-5)
The Believer has been delivered from sin and death. No longer servants, or even friends, but children of God. Believers are fearless because - God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. (2 Timothy 1:7)
Romans 8:10-16 (KJV)
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Let’s wrap this up. Look carefully at the Sermon on the Mount, the teaching on prayer and forgiveness specifically, and compare it to Jesus’ teaching in John 14-17. You can see some stark differences even between these two. Note what John writes - Jesus calls his followers friends now instead of servants. (John 15:13-17). Consider that for a moment. The relationship between man and God is in transition as Jesus prepares to go to the cross. They are now clean through the words he speaks. He gives the example of the vine and the branches as a new relationship is emerging. And most importantly, Jesus defers to the coming Comforter, who will lead them into all Truth. Many things would not make sense until after the cross, and they were baptized in the Holy Spirit. It would be the task of the HS to unveil further revelation, and assist their understanding of Scripture.
The Lord’s prayer was relevant to the Jews at that moment, when the Kingdom of Heaven was at hand, and not yet rejected by Israel. And in the future during the Tribulation, at the end of man’s judgment and the start of the Lord’s Day, it will be relevant again, as the Age of Grace will have ended. However, attempting to apply it as a lesson for the Body of Christ, or a means to attack Believers, lands you squarely, and deeply, in the religious ditch.
The Reformation never claimed to contradict the Lord’s Prayer, nor do I find evidence of the contrary. The comparisons are non sequitor.