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Faith Alone v. Forgiving Trespasses: How the Lord's Prayer Contradicts the Reformation
Catholic Defense ^ | February 25, 2015

Posted on 02/25/2015 11:50:17 AM PST by NYer

Lines from the Lord's Prayer, in various languages.
From the Eucharist Door at the Glory Facade of the Sagrada Família in Barcelona, Spain.

It's Lent in Rome. That means it's time for one of the great Roman traditions: station churches. Each morning, English-speaking pilgrims walk to a different church for Mass. This morning, on the way to St. Anastasia's, I was once again struck by a line in the Our Father: “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.” That's a hard thing to pray, It doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room. Even the Catechism seems shocked by it:

This petition is astonishing. If it consisted only of the first phrase, "And forgive us our trespasses," it might have been included, implicitly, in the first three petitions of the Lord's Prayer, since Christ's sacrifice is "that sins may be forgiven." But, according to the second phrase, our petition will not be heard unless we have first met a strict requirement. Our petition looks to the future, but our response must come first, for the two parts are joined by the single word "as."
Upon arriving at Mass, I discovered that the Gospel for the day was Matthew 6:7-15, in which Christ introduces this prayer. That seemed too serendipitous to simply be a coincidence. Then Archbishop Di Noia, O.P., got up to preach the homily, and it was all about how to understand this particular petition. So here goes: I think that the Lord's Prayer is flatly inconsistent with sola fide, the Protestant doctrine of justification by faith alone. Here's why.

In this line of the Lord's Prayer, Jesus seems to be explicitly conditioning our forgiveness on our forgiving. Indeed, it's hard to read “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us” any other way. What's more, after introducing the prayer, Jesus focuses on this line, in particular. Here's how He explains it (Matthew 6:14-15):
For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
So to be forgiven, you must forgive. If you do, you'll be forgiven. If you don't, you won't be. It's as simple as that.

So Christ has now told us three times that our being forgiven is conditioned upon our forgiving, using the most explicit of language. How does Luther respond to this? “God forgives freely and without condition, out of pure grace.” And what is Calvin's response? “The forgiveness, which we ask that God would give us, does not depend on the forgiveness which we grant to others.”

Their theology forces them to deny Christ's plain words, since admitting them would concede that we need something more than faith alone: we also need to forgive our neighbors. They've painted themselves into a corner, theologically. To get out of it, they change this part of the Our Father into either a way that we can know that we're saved (Luther's approach: that God “set this up for our confirmation and assurance for a sign alongside of the promise which accords with this prayer”) or a non-binding moral exhortation (Calvin's: “to remind us of the feelings which we ought to cherish towards brethren, when we desire to be reconciled to God”).

Modern Protestants tend to do the same thing with these verses, and countless other passages in which Christ or the New Testament authors teach us about something besides faith that's necessary for salvation. We see this particularly in regards to the Biblical teaching on the saving role of Baptism (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21) and works (Matthew 25:31-46; Romans 2:6-8; James 2). There are three common tactics employed:

  1. Reverse the causality. If a passage says that you must do X in order to be saved, claim that it really means that if you're saved, you'll just naturally do X. Thus, X is important for showing that you're saved, but it doesn't actually do anything, and certainly isn't necessary for salvation (even if the Bible says otherwise: Mark 16:16).
  2. No True Scotsman. If Scripture says that someone believed and then lost their salvation (like Simon the Magician in Acts 8, or the heretics mentioned in 2 Peter 2), say that they must not have ever actually believed (even if the Bible says the opposite: Acts 8:13, 2 Peter 2:1, 20-22).
  3. Spiritualize the passage into oblivion. If the Bible says that Baptism is necessary for salvation, argue that this is just a “spiritual” Baptism that means nothing more than believing. And if you need to get around the need to be “born of water and the Spirit” (John 3:5) spiritualize this, too, to get rid of the need for water. Reduce everything to a symbol, or a metaphor for faith.

In fairness to both the Reformers and to modern Protestants, they want to avoid any notion that we can earn God's forgiveness or our salvation. This doesn't justify denying or distorting Christ's words, but it's a holy impulse. And in fact, it was the theme of Abp. Di Noia's homily this morning. Grace is a gift, and what's more, grace is what enables us to forgive others. This point is key, because it explains why Christ isn't teaching something like Pelagianism.

God freely pours out His graces upon us, which bring about both (a) our forgiveness, and (b) our ability to forgive others. But we can choose to accept that grace and act upon it, or to reject it. And that decision has eternal consequences. Such an understanding is harmonious with Christ's actual words, while avoiding any idea that we possess the power to earn our salvation.

So both Catholics and Protestants reject Pelagianism, but there's a critical difference. Catholics believe that grace enables us to do good works, whereas Protestants tend to believe that grace causes us to do good works. To see why it matters, consider the parable of the unmerciful servant, Matthew 18:21-35. In this parable, we see three things happen:

  1. A debtor is forgiven an enormous debt of ten thousand talents (Mt. 18:25-27). Solely through the grace of the Master (clearly representing God), this man is forgiven his debts (sins). He is in a state of grace.
  2. This debtor refuses to forgive his neighbor of a small debt of 100 denarii (Mt. 18:28-30). The fact that he's been forgiven should enable the debtor to be forgiving: in being forgiven, he's received the equivalent of 60,000,000 denarii, and he's certainly seen a moral model to follow. But he turns away from the model laid out by the Master, and refuses to forgive his neighbor.
  3. This debtor is unforgiven by his Master (Mt. 18:32-35). The kicker comes at the very end: “And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt. So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”
Now, consider all of the Protestant work-arounds discussed above. To deny that this debtor was ever really forgiven would be an insult to the Master and in contradiction to the text. To say that, if we're forgiven, we'll just naturally forgive is equally a contradiction: this debtor is forgiven, and doesn't. To treat the need to forgive the other debtor as a non-binding moral exhortation would have been a fatal error. 

This parable gets to the heart of the issue. The Master's forgiveness is freely given, and cannot be earned. But that doesn't mean it's given unconditionally or irrevocably. Quite the contrary: Christ shows us in this parable that it can be repealed, and tells us why: if we refuse to forgive, we will not be forgiven. It turns out, the Lord's Prayer actually means what it says.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: bumpusadsummum; calvin; catholic; faithalone; forgiveness; forgivingtrespasses; luther; ourfather; paternoster; prayer; solafide; thelordsprayer; theourfather
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To: Gamecock

I’m thinking that not many of them realize how obligated they are to submit their intellect and will to that church rather than to Christ.


221 posted on 02/26/2015 9:50:11 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: CynicalBear; Alex Murphy

They worship a church of their own making.


222 posted on 02/26/2015 9:59:25 AM PST by Gamecock (Joel Osteen is a minister of the Gospel like Colonel Sanders is an Infantry officer.)
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To: CynicalBear

Some of these passages involve necromancy or “spiritualism,” which is NOT prayer. So those are irrelevant.

Some of the passages are about death FROM AN ENTIRELY EARTHLY POINT OF VIEW. They are not about life after death (pro or con) but about the FINALITY of death from our earthbound perspective.

Even granting that the rest of the passages are to be taken literally, there remains this question:

You believe that the Hebrew or Jewish belief at any given moment in the many centuries before Christ was the final, fully-developed truth?


223 posted on 02/26/2015 10:04:25 AM PST by Arthur McGowan
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To: Arthur McGowan; ealgeone
>>So those are irrelevant.<<

It says "or who consults the dead" Arthur. That disconnected it from necromancy or spiritualism. Catholics "consult the dead". Catholics denying it doesn't change the truth.

It wasn't what the Hebrew or Jewish belief was. It was what God said.

You have not shown one shred of evidence that those who have passed from this life are included in those we should have pray for us.

224 posted on 02/26/2015 10:13:49 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: Gamecock; Alex Murphy
>>They worship a church of their own making.<<

It's no different then the Mormons or JWs.

225 posted on 02/26/2015 10:15:07 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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Comment #226 Removed by Moderator

To: Salvation
I try to model my prayers along the Lord's prayer. Sometimes though they are just conversations with the Lord. Just us talking about whatever. It's fun to do.

Sometimes I try to just and listen.

227 posted on 02/26/2015 10:23:02 AM PST by ealgeone
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To: mitch5501; Mark17; Grateful2God; metmom; boatbums
If I imagined I'd be sitting down for a one on one with the "All consuming fire" for a decision on wether I'm worthy enough I'd question my own view of just how awesome God really is.

An interesting analogy. If I may expand on it a bit. God is a consuming fire for sin. The same fire that burns is also our greatest companion to warm us on a cold night. That is the Grace of God.

228 posted on 02/26/2015 10:28:18 AM PST by redleghunter (He expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself. Lk24)
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To: Arthur McGowan
>> you would find necromancy or spiritism absolutely condemned as a violation of the First Commandment.<<

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Catholics "consult the dead" Arthur. God said not to.

You have not shown one shred of evidence that those who have passed from this life are included in those we should have pray for us.

229 posted on 02/26/2015 10:29:16 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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Comment #230 Removed by Moderator

To: Arthur McGowan; ealgeone

You have not shown one shred of evidence that those who have passed from this life are included in those we should have pray for us.


231 posted on 02/26/2015 10:46:01 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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Comment #232 Removed by Moderator

Comment #233 Removed by Moderator

To: ealgeone

I think it’s sad that personal attacks have to have to be used because of no scriptural support.


234 posted on 02/26/2015 11:14:43 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: CynicalBear

Just like liberal dimocrats...when you’ve lost the argument, go personal or change the topic.


235 posted on 02/26/2015 11:19:06 AM PST by ealgeone
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Comment #236 Removed by Moderator

To: NYer

The problem with this article is that the author started with a premise, and then sought out verses to reinforce his preconceived narrative. That is not how you handle God’s Word. You study God’s Word and allow the Holy Spirit to reveal His Truth. The other major flaw in his “my religion can beat up yours” piece is a failure to rightly divide God’s Word. For instance, you cannot apply what was written to Jews living under the Old Covenant, to the Body of Christ. What remains is a disjointed column that causes confusion and sows even more division among Believers.

The Bible is written FOR the Body of Christ. But not all of it is written ABOUT or TO the Body of Christ. In this present Age of Grace, there are three groups - Jews, Gentiles (nations), and Believers (Body of Christ or The Church - not a man-made religious denomination). You must know to which group you belong, and determine who Scripture addresses.

The entire scope of Matthew is announcing the King, and the Kingdom of Heaven to Israel. The Kingdom of Heaven is a temporal kingdom prophesied throughout the OT and exclusive to Israel. The Sermon on the Mount, which includes this prayer, is most definitely KOH teaching. How do you know? Well, let’s take a brief inventory.

Does your righteousness exceed that of the scribes and pharisees?
Have you ever called someone a fool? You are in danger of hell fire.
Have you looked at a woman (or man if it applies) lustfully? You have committed adultery in your heart.
Do you turn the other cheek? Do you relinquish all your goods when you are sued?
Do you do your alms before men in the SYNAOGUE?
Do you pray in the SYNAGOGUE to be seen by men, and on street corners using vain repititions?
Do you take thought for your life, what you shall eat or drink? Do you store things in a barn or bank?
What about your clothes?
Do you judge others, or attempt to remove the mote out of your brother’s eye before removing the beam in your own?

All of those should at least raise a caution flag for a Believer, part of the Body of Christ.

Let’s look at the prayer itself. Do you see anything missing? Doesn’t it seem a bit odd that this prayer never invokes the name of Jesus? (John 16:23-25) But wait, there’s more!

Why would a Believer pray for the Kingdom of Heaven? Think carefully before answering. The KOH was promised and rejected by Israel. It was offered again after the Resurrection, and again rejected. It is now postponed until the Tribulation, where everything in this prayer, and the Sermon on the Mount, will again be applicable.

“Give us this day our daily bread.” This is not just literal bread, but God’s Word, because man lives by every Word of God. Isn’t this at odds with Jesus’ teaching in John? I thought His Words were to abide in us? (John 15:1-11) And that if we kept his Words, God would dwell in us. (John 14:24) Hmmm.

“Forgive us our debts, as we forgive others.” The entire article stakes its claim here, so let’s explore this a bit. Forgiveness here is based on Law and not Grace. Its not based on mercy, but merit. That makes sense for the Jew living under the Law, but what about the Body of Christ? What does Paul write? And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you. (Ephesians 4:32 KJV - see also Colossians 3:12-17) Note the tense - hath forgiven you, and the reason for it - Christ’s sake. Believers don’t forgive others because they have to, its because they want to - its motivated by Love Himself. Love is the motivation for everything, not Law. Its the Fruit of the Spirit that is produced naturally as the Believer matures in the Truth. And if there was any doubt, Paul puts the hammer down in Ephesians 2. There can be NO DOUBT as to the meaning here.

Ephesians 2:4-5 (KJV)
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Ephesians 2:8-10 (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Let’s look at Romans 8 - There is NOW NO CONDEMNATION to those in Christ Jesus. The Body of Christ is DEAD to sin, and made alive IN CHRIST. Their standing is very different from the Jew attempting to keep the Law. And remember, the BOC is NEITHER Jew or Gentile, male or female, but ONE BODY with Jesus as the Head.

This is only complicated to the religious, who are determined to keep you in bondage, never allowing you to enjoy the Love and Freedom that comes IN CHRIST. If led by the Spirit, you are a child of God, made alive in Christ and seated in Heavenly Places. God’s Love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us. (Romans 5:5)

The Church was a Mystery, hidden in God and not revealed until Paul received the revelation of the Body of Christ, and then given the mandate to teach it. Even a cursory understanding of Paul’s letters should lead you to question how this prayer could be applied to a child of God. (Ephesians 3)

“And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.” For mature Believers, that statement makes little sense. Believers are MORE THAN CONQUERORS, walking in the Spirit they do not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Believers have the Word of God (armor and sword), the name of Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and the authority to overcome everything the enemy throws at them. (Luke 10:19, Romans 8: 26-39, Galatians 5:13-18, Ephesians 6, 1 Peter 5:6-11, 1 John 5:1-5)

The Believer has been delivered from sin and death. No longer servants, or even friends, but children of God. Believers are fearless because - God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. (2 Timothy 1:7)

Romans 8:10-16 (KJV)
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Let’s wrap this up. Look carefully at the Sermon on the Mount, the teaching on prayer and forgiveness specifically, and compare it to Jesus’ teaching in John 14-17. You can see some stark differences even between these two. Note what John writes - Jesus calls his followers friends now instead of servants. (John 15:13-17). Consider that for a moment. The relationship between man and God is in transition as Jesus prepares to go to the cross. They are now clean through the words he speaks. He gives the example of the vine and the branches as a new relationship is emerging. And most importantly, Jesus defers to the coming Comforter, who will lead them into all Truth. Many things would not make sense until after the cross, and they were baptized in the Holy Spirit. It would be the task of the HS to unveil further revelation, and assist their understanding of Scripture.

The Lord’s prayer was relevant to the Jews at that moment, when the Kingdom of Heaven was at hand, and not yet rejected by Israel. And in the future during the Tribulation, at the end of man’s judgment and the start of the Lord’s Day, it will be relevant again, as the Age of Grace will have ended. However, attempting to apply it as a lesson for the Body of Christ, or a means to attack Believers, lands you squarely, and deeply, in the religious ditch.


237 posted on 02/26/2015 11:36:18 AM PST by Kandy Atz ("Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want for bread.")
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To: CynicalBear
All good stuff! But laws (such as Canon Law and the Code of Federal Regulations for example) are always dry and prescriptive.

The passage I cited from JPII will help you understand in a more practical, human way the Catholic perspective on the relationship among Christ, the Magisterium and the ordinary Christian faithful, how the Church's "charge is to announce and teach authentically that truth which is Christ", how the Magisterium "does not bring to the Christian conscience truths which are extraneous to it" and how, because the truths it brings is the Truth of Christ, "the authority of the Church, when she pronounces on moral questions, in no way undermines the freedom of conscience of Christians".

By the way, if you are curious to learn more about the Magisterium, conscience and Christ's teaching's from a Catholic perspective, I wholeheartedly recommend reading all of Saint JPII's Veritatis Splendor sometime. There are some really beautiful passages in there, such as this one:

The light of God's face shines in all its beauty on the countenance of Jesus Christ, "the image of the invisible God" (Col 1:15), the "reflection of God's glory" (Heb 1:3), "full of grace and truth" (Jn 1:14). Christ is "the way, and the truth, and the life" (Jn 14:6). Consequently the decisive answer to every one of man's questions, his religious and moral questions in particular, is given by Jesus Christ, or rather is Jesus Christ himself, as the Second Vatican Council recalls: "In fact,it is only in the mystery of the Word incarnate that light is shed on the mystery of man. For Adam, the first man, was a figure of the future man, namely, of Christ the Lord. It is Christ, the last Adam, who fully discloses man to himself and unfolds his noble calling by revealing the mystery of the Father and the Father's love".

238 posted on 02/26/2015 11:46:16 AM PST by edwinland
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To: edwinland; Arthur McGowan

Has anyone in the RCC ever said why your church is not call the Roman Christian Church? Why the undying attachment to the word “Catholic” and detachment from the word “Christ-ian” in how you identify your church to the world?


239 posted on 02/26/2015 12:02:35 PM PST by Resettozero
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To: NYer

The Reformation never claimed to contradict the Lord’s Prayer, nor do I find evidence of the contrary. The comparisons are non sequitor.


240 posted on 02/26/2015 12:03:33 PM PST by mdmathis6 (If Hitler, Nazi, OR...McCarthy are mentioned in an argument, then the arguement is over!)
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