Posted on 02/20/2015 2:37:38 AM PST by Repent and Believe
From the Martyrology today we have: "At Damascus, [in the year 743,] holy Peter Mavimeno. Some Arabs came to see him while he was ill, and to them he said, " Whoever does not embrace the Catholic Christian religion will be damned, as your false prophet Mohammed is," whereupon they killed him."
“... and not the one they think they’re serving”
I agree. I spent 12 years in Catholic schools and never ONCE did any priest/nun/brother etc.. ever say that if a person isn’t Roman Catholic.. they were damned.
I certainly didn’t learn to bash Catholics in a Methodist church.
The guy was talking to a moslem and died well after expressing his commitment to the great commission. Christ said to spread the gospel and he did.
“Of all the articles I have ever seen in this antiCatholic ste, this particular one is the most unsourced...”
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Please consider these sources, then ask if there is any remote possibility that the Vatican II Council was itself heretical:
The Catholic Church has solemnly defined three times by infallible declarations that outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation. The most explicit and forceful of the three came from Pope Eugene IV, in the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441, who proclaimed ex cathedra: “The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire ‘which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her... No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
The other two infallible declarations are as follows: There is one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved. Pope Innocent III, ex cathedra, (Fourth Lateran Council, 1215).
We declare, say , define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. Pope Boniface VIII, (Unam Sanctam, 1302).
(http://www.olrl.org/doctrine/eens2.shtml)
Every Summer when I was a kid from 5th grade to high school age, I would go to a Methodist bible school. In middle school and high school, I volunteered as an aide for it. My parish priest knew about it and thought it was a wonderful idea to help children learn about Jesus. Never once did he advise that I should convert or even bring up the idea of Catholicism. So both the Methodist minister, the Methodist teachers and my RC priest all loved the idea and it wasn’t a big deal whatsoever.
- If this martyrdom occurred in the year 743, keep the timing in mind. For example, this was centuries before the Great Schism. Timing issues may color how you interpret the word "Catholic."
- I'm a bit surprised that no one has mentioned a few things, such as the Athanasian Creed. As the English Book of Common Prayer words it, it begins:
Whosoever will be saved : before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholick Faith.
Which Faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled : without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
Although there has existed some controversy over its origins (and apparently few today believe that it came from the famous Athanasius himself), it also dates to well before the Great Schism (although Westerners have used it more).
Note well that the contents of the Athansian Creed focus on two things that many of us would consider central to Christian doctrine: the Trinity and the Incarnation. The usual subject matter of our interminable "Catholic" discussions is not the center here. For example, Lutheran and Reformed groups approve of the contents of this creed.
Now, I am not saying that my last paragraph necessarily has much bearing on how the quotation in the original post uses the word "catholic," "Catholic," or whatever you want to use. I am suggesting, though, that maybe the word doesn't mean what some people are first thinking.
(In similar fashion, I've seen English-language Eastern Orthodox resources that use "Catholic" in the wording of the Nicene Creed--"One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church"--and obviously the Orthodox are not using the word in the same way that others do.)
- The title of this thread also reminds me of the importance of how a discussion is framed. I can think of ways that titling the thread that would've made it more about the people who killed this Peter Mavimeno.
John 3:16...God’s actual view on the matter states differently. God never partners with any man or men, He is God afterall. No man or men can come between Him and us. It is no more complex than that. I do not believe that the Catholic Church embraces this false belief.
Good thing nobody is non-Catholic bashing ping
In 743, the Catholic Christian faith was the only one in town...so, in modern times, I would think, small “c”.
Our minister was a convert from Catholicism who brought a lot of Catholic rites with him like traditional communion and midnight mass.
That is very magnanimous of you, but by virtue of the fact that the word *Catholic* is capitalized, it DOES at that point mean the Catholic church.
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
“Jesus came to save sinners, not to tell everyone what religion to join”
Exactly, thank you for clarifying your belief. Unfortunately, there are many Catholics who believe as that story states. I even recently had one tell me that Billy Graham was going to hell because he is not Catholic!
One clarification of what you stated though...Jesus began the catholic church (universal) not the Catholic Church per se. I think that clarification is important to stifle the false exclusivity some Catholics portray their church as.
I admire and indeed am considering conversion to Catholicism, but one of the big roadblocks for me is this exclusivity idea. I cannot buy into it. I am hoping that this is not actual Catholic belief, just a spin off belief held by some.
“Every Summer when I was a kid from 5th grade to high school age, I would go to a Methodist bible school. In middle school and high school, I volunteered as an aide for it. My parish priest knew about it and thought it was a wonderful idea to help children learn about Jesus. Never once did he advise that I should convert or even bring up the idea of Catholicism. So both the Methodist minister, the Methodist teachers and my RC priest all loved the idea and it wasn’t a big deal whatsoever.”
Thank you for that! As a Protestant considering conversion to Catholicism this is a big deal for me.
There was a 'big change' once Christianity was 'accepted' by the Roman Emperor and the state became a so-called 'sponsor' of the religion under Constantine.
Imagine that the basis for his 'conversion' is that he visioned a "Cross" to lead him to victory in the process of killing (battle). The one who died for all of humanity in meek and peace, becomes the inspiration to kill during battle!
As he was for King David also.
As a former RCC’er, yes this is the MO.
Jesus is the Light of the World! He Saves—nobody else can and nothing else will.
Romans 10:9-10
John 3:16
John 6:29
John 14:6
What’s the point of your post? You ultimately agree with the point of the OP, that all Muslims are damned, don’t you? Or did you only read the title?
The Church does teach that it, and the sacraments, and the fullness of the Church’s teaching, are the ordinary means of salvation. Those who are deprived of them are in greater peril of grave sin throughout their lives and of dying in the state of mortal sin. The Church does not teach that all those who are not visibly members of the Catholic Church are damned.
You have ignored the many times that the Church, in Magisterial declarations, has said that only those who KNOW that the Catholic Church is the true Church founded by Jesus Christ, yet refuse to join it, “cannot be saved.”
Here is the answer to this question from the Baltimore Catechism:
Q. 509. Are all bound to belong to the Church?
A. All are bound to belong to the Church, and he who knows the Church to be the true Church and remains out of it cannot be saved.
And Pius IX:
Pope Pius IX (1846–1878), Allocution Singulari quadam, December 9, 1854: “Not without sorrow we have learned that another error, no less destructive, has taken possession of some parts of the Catholic world, and has taken up its abode in the souls of many Catholics who think that one should have good hope of the eternal salvation of all those who have never lived in the true Church of Christ. Therefore, they are wont to ask very often what will be the lot and condition of those who have not submitted in any way to the Catholic faith, and, by bringing forward most vain reasons, they make a response favorable to their false opinion. Far be it from Us, Venerable Brethren, to presume on the limits of the divine mercy which is infinite; far from Us, to wish to scrutinize the hidden counsel and “judgements of God” which are “a great abyss” (Ps. 35.7) and cannot be penetrated by human thought. But, as is Our Apostolic Duty, we wish your episcopal solicitude and vigilance to be aroused, so that you will strive as much as you can to drive form the mind of men that impious and equally fatal opinion, namely, that the way of eternal salvation can be found in any religion whatsoever. May you demonstrate with skill and learning in which you excel, to the people entrusted to your care that the dogmas of the Catholic faith are in no wise opposed to divine mercy and justice.
“For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, will not be held guilty of this in the eyes of God. Now, in truth, who would arrogate so much to himself as to mark the limits of such an ignorance, because of the nature and variety of peoples, regions, innate dispositions, and of so many other things? For, in truth, when released from these corporeal chains ‘we shall see God as He is’ (1 John 3.2), we shall understand perfectly by how close and beautiful a bond divine mercy and justice are united; but as long as we are on earth, weighed down by this mortal mass which blunts the soul, let us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is “one God, one faith, one baptism” (Eph. 4.5); it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry.
“But, just as the way of charity demands, let us pour forth continual prayers that all nations everywhere may be converted to Christ; and let us be devoted to the common salvation of men in proportion to our strength, ‘for the hand of the Lord is not shortened’ (Isa. 9.1) and the gifts of heavenly grace will not be wanting to those who sincerely wish and ask to be refreshed by this light.”[6]
Pope Pius IX (1846–1878), Encyclical Singulari quidem March 17, 1856): “Teach that just as there is only one God, one Christ, one Holy Spirit, so there is also only one truth which is divinely revealed. There is only one divine faith which is the beginning of salvation for mankind and the basis of all justification, the faith by which the just person lives and without which it is impossible to please God and come to the community of His children (Romans 1; Hebrews 11; Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 8). There is only one true, holy, Catholic Church, which is the Apostolic Roman Church. There is only one See founded on Peter by the word of the Lord (St. Cyprian, Epistle 43), outside of which we cannot find either true faith or eternal salvation. He who does not have the Church for a mother cannot have God for a father, and whoever abandons the See of Peter on which the Church is established trusts falsely that he is in the Church (ibid, On the Unity of the Catholic Church). ... Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control.”[7]
Pope Pius IX (1846–1878), Encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore, August 10, 1863: “And here, beloved Sons and Venerable Brothers, We should mention again and censure a very grave error in which some Catholics are unhappily engaged, who believe that men living in error, and separated from the true faith and from Catholic unity, can attain eternal life. Indeed, this is certainly quite contrary to Catholic teaching. It is known to Us and to you that they who labor in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion and who, zealously keeping the natural law and its precepts engraved in the hearts of all by God, and being ready to obey God, live an honest and upright life, can, by the operating power of divine light and grace, attain eternal life, since God who clearly beholds, searches, and knows the minds, souls, thoughts, and habits of all men, because of His great goodness and mercy, will by no means suffer anyone to be punished with eternal torment who has not the guilt of deliberate sin. But, the Catholic dogma that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church is well-known; and also that those who are obstinate toward the authority and definitions of the same Church, and who persistently separate themselves from the unity of the Church, and from the Roman Pontiff, the successor of Peter, to whom ‘the guardianship of the vine has been entrusted by the Savior,’ (Council of Chalcedon, Letter to Pope Leo I) cannot obtain eternal salvation. The words of Christ are clear enough: ‘And if he will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican’ (Matthew 18:17); ‘He that heareth you, heareth Me; and he that dispeth you, despiseth Me; and he that dispiseth Me, despiseth Him that sent Me’ (Luke 10:16); ‘He that believeth not shall be condemned’ (Mark 16:16); ‘He that doth not believe, is already judged’ (John 3:18); ‘He that is not with Me, is against Me; and he that gathereth not with Me, scattereth’ (Luke 11:23). The Apostle Paul says that such persons are ‘perverted and self-condemned’ (Titus 3:11); the Prince of the Apostles calls the ‘false prophets… who shall bring in sects of perdition, and deny the Lord who bought them: bringing upon themselves swift destruction’ (2 Peter 2:1).”[8]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus
From Tim staples:
he Catholic Church teaches infallibly, “extra ecclesiam nulla salus,” or, “outside the Church there is no salvation.” But as with all dogmas of the Faith, this has to be qualified and understood properly. The Catechism of the Catholic Church lays out the truth of the matter succinctly in paragraphs 846-848, but I would recommend backing up to CCC 830 for a context that will help in understanding these three essential points concerning this teaching:
1. There is no salvation apart from Christ and his One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Again, this is an infallible teaching and not up for debate among Catholics.
2. Those who are “invincibly” ignorant concerning the truth of #1 above will not be culpable for this lack of knowledge before God.
3. Those in the category of #2 have the real possibility of salvation even if they never come to an explicit knowledge of Christ and/or his Church.
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