How the fictional early papacy became real

Beggars All Martin Luther's Mariology ^ | June 7,2010 | John Bugay

[NYer]

This isn’t so complicated as that.

Yes .. it is! You made an assertion and I am responding. God is always with us. He wants us to talk to him and to listen to him. In prayer we raise our hearts and minds to God. Your understanding of prayer may be different from mine. There are many forms of prayer - adoration, petition, intercession, thanksgiving. We can pray silently or aloud. We can pray alone or with others.

I posed a simple question and will patiently wait for a response.

[NKP_Vet]

Never met a fallen away Catholic in my life that was properly
catechised, and never met one that believed in the Real Presence. Total ignorance of the Catholic faith is almost universal with fallen away Catholics.

[Springfield Reformer]

OK, I listened to the whole thing, and just wow, what a steaming pile.  Here it is, in a nutshell (are you sitting down?):  Peter was a Jewish mole, a volunteer of the Jewish elite who would steer Christianity far enough away from Messianic Judaism that Jewish fathers would once again know who was safe for their daughters to marry. It gets worse.  Peter invented Classical Latin.  Which is bad enough.  But he can't even get the time frame right. This in keeping with furthering the gap between Christianity and Judaism. Oy Vey.  This is largely built on a medieval book that was circulating called Tolodet Yeshu (which Denburg translates as Chronicles of Jesus).  It started the medieval equivalent of a flame war.  It has many false and derogatory statements about Jesus, dislocations in time, conspiratorial explanations of events.  Oh, and double agent Peter cuts a deal with his fellow Tannin that in his role as Peter the Christian he can break all kinds of Jewish laws and be absolved of all wrongdoing in the afterlife, presumably for the noble intent of saving Judaism from Christianity.  

So no, Denburg has nothing to say that should interest anyone on either side of our ongoing debate.  IMHO.  He links one unsupported supposition together with another, then another, then throws in a few shocking, outlandish ideas that supposedly emerge from all the connecting of spurious dots, but in the hard cold light of rigorous analysis he has nothing but meaningless non sequiturs to show for all his efforts.  I feel badly for the people who listen to him.  Fortunately, his YouTube audience appears to be very small.

Peace,

SR

[Faith Presses On]

You didn’t, though, address the questions before your question. And the forms of prayer you mention aren’t controversial for Christians.

[metmom]

And that’s what Catholics posit as a source to support their position??????

[Springfield Reformer]

No no, this one is not on verga. This, like my wife likes to say, came out of nowhere, and went right back there. The person who originally presented it was Jack Hydrazine, and I have no idea where he was coming from. This is the sort of thing I’d almost expect from a Hebrew Roots person, but not even. This goes beyond that, by miles. But no, not offered in evidence by verga, or any other RC, as far as I know.

Peace,

SR

[Elsie]

Remarks like this sound so very very stupid.

Actually: ignorant.

Remarks like this sound so very very Catholic.

Actually: Factual

[Elsie]

My little Jack hasn’t the, uh, gonads to be that frisky!

[Elsie]

Catholics with a brain do not leave the One, True Church. Catholics do not leave the precious blood and body of the Lord Jesus Christ. The ones that left were totally ignorant of their faith and never believed in the Real Presence to start with.

And you are SO sure of your diagnoses!

AMAZING!

[Elsie]

Never met a fallen away Catholic in my life that was properly catechised,

You spelled brainwashed wrong.

[caww]

.....”What I see Catholic prayer being treated as is more of a incantation or religious obligation. If the Catholic prays so many of such prayer, then it satisfies some kind of obligation and God will grant the person’s request”.....

Te overall behavior of worship itself models many of the pagan means of worship ....regardless...what other option do they have then praying as so since true Christianity is about a relationship with the Lord....if they lack this they only have one other option of “canned” prayers.

[caww]

...”The ones that left were totally ignorant of their faith and never believed in the Real Presence to start with”....

Which that statement itself evidences catholics faith rests in ‘performance of a ritual’ rather than a relationship with Jesus.

[LadyDoc]

it is a legal document. I said this three times, but apparently you don’t know the difference between a legal document and a dogmatic proclamation.

Essentially they are telling clerics of 1530, many of whom were poorly educated or were career clerics with little true belief, that if they spread these ideas, they will be thrown out of the church, which is what anathema means.

The core dogmas don’t change.

As for cherry picking: read the wikipedia article I cited, which quotes the early church fathers and tradition on how the church argued about these dogmas long before Constantine came around.

[LadyDoc]

if Catholics are snarky at these anti-catholic bashers in FR, it is because these people are so ignorant of what Catholics actually believe it is hard to take them seriously.

It’s not that we don’t respect other believers: We just don’t respect ignorance and illogical arguments.

[LadyDoc]

Mary mediatrix is not a church dogma. You can quote all you want, but it has never been proclaimed as a dogma, so it is merely an opinion of some people.

I suspect you don’t understand what it means. She is A mediator, not “THE Mediator”.

We are all “mediators” when we pray for other people...we often ask fellow Christians, including those in heaven (”cloud of witnesses”),to pray for us. This is called the “communion of saints”, which is mentioned in the Apostle’s creed...

Doesn’t your church emphasize spiritual warfare? About the importance of prayer warriors to stand in the gap? About Abraham mediating with God to stop destroying Sodom?

It is on a completely different level than the redemption of the cross. Jesus is God.

[HossB86]

Mary mediatrix is not a church dogma.

So... does the Catechism of the Catholic Church not teach what the Church believes? Dogma Schmogma. If it's in the Catechism, it's taught. If it's taught as truth then... guess what? IT'S DOGMA.

I suspect you don’t understand what it means. She is A mediator, not “THE Mediator”.

I suspect you don't understand what the the word "one" means:
1 Timothy 2:5
"For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man[a] Christ Jesus,"

One. Not some. If there were more than one mediator, Paul would have said, "there are many mediators between God and men, one of which is Chist Jesus,"

But... he didn't. And why should he? Christ HIMSELF said:
John 14:6
"Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No oneexcept through me."

Did you catch those? "No one" and "except through me." Hmmm. Wonder what God the Son meant when he said that.... If there were another way, don't you think he would have said, "No one comes the the Father except through me and/or my mother"??

But... he didn't. No one and except through me means exactly that -- there is ONE mediator. The Roman Catholic Cult teaches that Mary is a "Mediatrix" which means there is more that one. That means Rome says, in effect, "Christ is wrong."

Really? Do you really want to believe that falsehood?

We are all “mediators” when we pray for other people...we often ask fellow Christians, including those in heaven (”cloud of witnesses”),to pray for us. This is called the “communion of saints”, which is mentioned in the Apostle’s creed...

Uh. No. When we pray for other people, we are praying an intercessory prayer. Remember the verses above? There is ONE mediator...."

We cannot ask "fellow Christians," "Saints" or anyone else to pray for us... including Mary.. because ONLY GOD IS OMNISCIENT. That is one of God's peculiar, unshared traits. We are not omniscient; if we were, we would be god-like ourselves, and we're not. Only God is. Besides... why would you want to pray to anyone OTHER than God? We, as Christians, have access directly to Him. Why be stupid and pray to someone who can't hear you (and couldn't do anything even if they could) when you can pray DIRECTLY TO GOD ALMIGHTY??

My suggestion to you would be to actually read The Bible. Please. Read it. Prayerfully (To God, mind you), thoughtfully, and sincerely. Read it. Remember that it is God's inerrant, inspired word. Compare God's word to the lies that the Roman Cult teaches -- it's Catechism and other "dogma" and hopefully -- hopefully -- you'll see the falsehoods presented as truth by Rome. Hopefully, prayerfully, God will open your heart to him and to his Son....

Hoss

[HossB86]

Total ignorance of the Catholic faith is almost universal with fallen away Catholics.

Which is actually good -- because then it means that they hopefully have SAVING faith - faith that actually is substantive - and something most catechized Cultists don't have.

Hoss

[boatbums]

if Catholics are snarky at these anti-catholic bashers in FR, it is because these people are so ignorant of what Catholics actually believe it is hard to take them seriously. It’s not that we don’t respect other believers: We just don’t respect ignorance and illogical arguments.

Then you don't seem to have read what any of these threads have to say. They are FAR from "Catholic-bashing". But, if people are "ignorant", then why isn't there a better effort to set them straight? Why is snark and insult the knee-jerk reaction before ANY attempt is made to educate people? If "illogical" arguments are being made by opponents, then where are the logical counter arguments? Sorry...I've been here too long to believe that "respect" is genuinely the reason for the vociferous and angry tirades that get launched towards others who disagree with what Catholicism teaches.

There are numerous former Roman Catholics here who taught RCIA classes and who were quite involved with their church. I kind of doubt they suddenly forgot all they knew when they left. I suppose it probably helps many RCs to think ignorance is the sole reason behind criticism of Catholicism, but it is simply not the case. Instead of just assuming other's motives and reacting in anger, why not engage in the discussion and try to prove your case with a better argument? That, at least, would garner some respect.

[metmom]

Essentially they are telling clerics of 1530, many of whom were poorly educated or were career clerics with little true belief, that if they spread these ideas, they will be thrown out of the church, which is what anathema means.

Thus damning them to hell because the RCC taught and continues to teach that outside of the RCC there is no salvation.

The core dogmas don’t change.

And if not the Catechism of the Catholic church, where is the infallible list of the core dogmas that someone infallibly declared to be infallible?

[boatbums]

Amen!